“THE TRIPLE DOUBLE” #11 WITH ROB BROST, BOLINGBROOK (IL) HIGH SCHOOL BOYS’ BASKETBALL HEAD COACH – EPISODE 969
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The 11th episode of “The Triple Double” with Rob Brost, Bolingbrook (IL) High School Boys’ Basketball Head Coach. Rob, Mike, & Jason hit on three basketball topics in each episode of “The Triple Double”.
- The coaching implications of the shot clock being implemented in Illinois High School Basketball
- Advice for practicing special situations (BLOBs, SLOBs, Down 2-30 seconds left, etc…)
- Should player development be position specific or positionless?
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What We Discuss with Rob Brost
- The implications of the shot clock being implemented in Illinois High School Basketball
- Advice for practicing special situations (BLOBs, SLOBs, Down 2-30 seconds left, etc…)
- Should player development be position specific or positionless?
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THANKS, ROB BROST
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TRANSCRIPT FOR “THE TRIPLE DOUBLE” #11 WITH ROB BROST, BOLINGBROOK (IL) HIGH SCHOOL BOYS’ BASKETBALL HEAD COACH – EPISODE 969
[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here without my co host Jason Sunkle, but I am pleased to be joined for Triple Double number 11, Rob Brost, head boys basketball coach at Bolingbrook High School in Bolingbrook, Illinois. Rob, welcome to number 11.
[00:00:19] Rob Brost: Man, I love it. Can’t believe we’re up to number 11, but every time I, I love every session and you know, it gets better and better as it goes.
So hopefully the listeners are getting something out of it and we can help some, help some people out here.
[00:00:31] Mike Klinzing: It’s a blast. I’m loving every one of the episodes. I always feel like we kind of dive into some specific topics that for any coach that’s out there listening, hopefully you’re able to pick up a nugget or two that can make your team, your program, yourself.
a better coach kind of through our conversation. So we’re going to start, Rob, with a development in the state of Illinois that is slowly but surely making its way across the country. Who knows when we’re going to get all 50 states participating, but the Shot Clock is coming to Illinois. Tell me about your excitement level for that.
[00:01:05] Rob Brost: Yes, I mean, I’ve been a long, long, long time proponent of the Shot Clock and we’ve done a lot of work here in Illinois to get this thing going and several coaches did a lot of work to get this thing rolling. And so obviously we’re thrilled that it’s coming and we’re thrilled that we could even start to use it this year if it’s in agreement with both the coaches.
We can start using it immediately if it’s installed and both the head coaches agreed to, to use it. So I’m really. Encouraged by it. I think it’s great for the game. I think it’s great for our kids. I think it’s great for our state. And you know, obviously we would have loved to have it sooner, but we’ll, we’ll take it.
I see a bunch of stuff that Wisconsin today or yesterday voted down the shot clock. So I just don’t understand it at all. I mean, we have a play clock for water polo here in Illinois, and we can find somebody to run the play clock for water polo, so I think we can find somebody to run the shot clock for, for boys and girls basketball, so I’m just really happy that it’s coming and I’m happy that it’s here and I’m happy that we can start using it.
Really effective immediately if we want to. And some tournaments we’re using it last year and some shootouts. That got special permission from the IHSA, but now it’s kind of across the board. And so just thrilled that it’s here and it just adds so much. I, I I don’t know if strategy is the right word, but philosophically it, it, it adds to the decision making of both players and coaches.
So I think it’s, it’s great for our game here in the state of Illinois. That’s for sure.
[00:02:54] Mike Klinzing: How do you see it impacting your team? The game that you play, because anybody who’s listened to you or seeing you talk knows that you like your teams to play fast. So when I think about the impact on your team. I think of it not so much from an offensive standpoint where you’re like, man, we’re going to have to really speed it up and make sure we’re getting a shot off in 35 seconds.
I see it more being an impact of the other way where teams might try to slow you guys down and work the ball and, and, and manage possessions. And that’s where I kind of, I see the impact just based on what I know about your program. So I’m just curious, how do you see it? Where do you lie on this?
[00:03:37] Rob Brost: It’s going to be interesting because I think in, in a lot of ways it gives other teams that don’t play like we play a little bit of advantage because now, and I don’t want to give the keys to be in my team, but I’m about to do it. You know, if you can get all five back and get in a zone and just clog up the lane and protect the lane and make us chuck a shot sometimes we’re going to have to chuck a shot.
And that’s going to be the methodology, I think, of beating us. And I think in a lot of ways that’s going to help some teams strategy wise against us. Now, obviously, it’ll help us because teams won’t be able to hold the ball like they’ve done in the past. And so offensively for us, I don’t know if it’s going to change a lot of what we do, but we’re going to have to get into actions or get into what we do quicker in the half court.
Although it’s not really an issue, that isn’t really an issue for us, but. What I’m saying is if teams get all five back, say, and are waiting for us, we’re not going to be able to be as patient as we’ve been in the past. And it sounds weird because we don’t, I don’t think we really ever hold the ball for 35 seconds, but just the psychology of it plays a role into kids and how they play.
Just like where the three point line and Plays a role. And if you took the three point line out, guys would probably shoot from a lot closer in, right? So you know, it’s going to be I think a really good change for us and just strategically you can defend without fouling and you can defend without fouling really up until the last minute or two minutes unless you’re really down. And so I think it’s just a huge advantage and it helps teams that play against our style because once we get up and we start to spread you out you would have to come and guard us. Now you don’t really have to come and guard us. We have to attack you.
And so there’s going to be some advantages. That teams are going to have style of play wise against us, even though they want to play slower. Because you saw even in the state title game, not this past season, but the season prior you know, Moline got up, I think it was six or eight and they just spread the floor out for the rest of the game.
And you couldn’t do anything with them because they had a big 10 point guard and then a big 10 big, and they would just spread it out and he would break them down and then they would throw it to their big and he would lay it up. And so those things are going to be changed. Now you’re going to have to actually play basketball and, and nothing against Moline or anybody that did that, that’s exactly what they should have done because they won the state title.
So you know, it’s just going to add more basketball into the equation. And I think wherever you can add more basketball, that’s a good thing for our kids because it helps them with decision making and all the things that makes basketball what it is and makes it better. And so I’m just thrilled that it’s, that it’s here and I’m thrilled that it’s coming.
[00:06:58] Mike Klinzing: Going back to the point that you made about the presence of the shot clock, having an impact on players and the way that they play and sort of the way that they approach it. What’s always interesting to me is, When you think about the different levels of basketball and the 24 second shot clock, let’s say in the NBA, and obviously we’re talking about the best players in the world, but those guys inbound the ball with 1.
6 seconds and you pretty much know that they’re going to get a good shot because of how well they execute and how skilled they are and they know how to handle the clock under pressure. College. Okay. You’re at about four or five seconds. If you’re at a high level, those players can, can manage that. And then you think about a high school end of the half or end of a game situation.
And it gets down to about 10 seconds and the whole crowd is panicking and the players are going nuts and all of a sudden they’re firing up a shot with seven seconds to go, and it just creates this. Frenzy because that clock is ticking down. So as a coach, how do you anticipate, I’m assuming in practice, you’re going to put the clock on because now it’s going to happen, not just four times a game at the end of a quarter.
Now you’re looking at that happening over and over and over and again in a game. So how do you think about preparing your team for the end of shot clock type of actions, which obviously again, you’re going to try to play fast.
[00:08:19] Rob Brost: This is going to sound funny, but I think it’s going to for us. It’s going to take more preparation on the defensive end how we are going to handle it than on the offensive end and I know that sounds crazy and I’m an offense guy.
And some of my colleagues are like, you’d never even work on defense, which is fine. I get all that. But I think it’s going to be more of an adjustment for not an adjustment, but there’s just going to be more teaching like things like you say now, like don’t bail them out with a foul.
That’s going to become even more true with the shot clock. And so you, you don’t want to foul in the last five seconds of the shot clock. You know, little things like that that become big things when you get to the sectional final or the super sectional or the region final, whatever the case may be, or the conference title game or whatever it is when you’re playing someone that’s about the same level as you are, those things all matter.
And like what you said, we always talk about we want more possessions than the other team, so we want the last possession of the first quarter, we want the last possession of the half, we want the last possession of the third quarter, and you know, if it’s a tight game, we want the last possession of the game.
And so we want at least three more possessions than the other team, and that’s big for us. To have the last quarter all of that stuff, but that might not be even possible now with the shot clock. And so you know, every possession I think is amplified, if that makes sense, even though you’re going to get more of them.
And so it’s, it’s really a double edged sword, so to speak, as far as how you’re teaching it. Right. So, we play ultra fast anyways but we can’t forget about what got us there. So obviously we’re going to do the same thing we do on offense, as we’ve always done, except for if it happens to get down to 10 for whatever reason, and it will, then what are we going to do then?
And so now you have an end of quarter situation happening probably two or three times a quarter where it’s that situation. So those things are going to need to be practiced, but at the same time, the randomness of those needs to be practiced. But you know, I’m going to get into some randomness things with topic number two.
And we want our kids to be able to play random basketball, because that’s what basketball is. And you’ve heard me say this a ton of times. Like if I play you 10 times. 10 different things are going to happen when we play the 10 times. And so the randomness of basketball comes up and your team has to be ready for those things and the randomness of it.
You cannot, I know coaches try to, but you cannot possibly prepare for every single situation that happens in the game. That’s why Some of your practice has to be random and how you develop your practices need to be random, which again, we’re going to get more into it. I’m going to touch on that on our second topic, but back to the shot clock, I think as long as you’re practicing with it and doing what you’re supposed to with it that I don’t know if it’s going to be as much of a factor for us on offense as it is on defense, if that makes sense.
[00:11:48] Mike Klinzing: No, it does. I think when you start looking at it, there’s lots of impacts that may not be initially apparent when you first look at, okay, how does this impact what I’m doing in all aspects of the game? And certainly I think you bring up a great point about end of quarter situations where in the past, if you wanted to make sure you had that last possession and you get the ball back with X number of seconds, provided that you don’t turn the ball over, you can control that.
Now, if you get the ball back with 50 seconds left, now you have a decision to make, right? Which and a lot of times you see the horrible two for one where, Hey man, we’re just, we’re just chucking up a shot that has like a 5 percent expected value shot. But hey, we got a two for one.
And so there’s managing that. And again, obviously you’re talking about high school players where even in the NBA guys make mistakes.
[00:12:48] Rob Brost: Yeah,
[00:12:48] Mike Klinzing: I would say tremendously poor decision sometimes on what a two for one looks like. So with a high school kid, that’s clearly something that you’re going to have to practice, talk about, discuss, watch film on, help them to understand exactly what that looks like.
And so there’s a lot of, as you said, right off the top, there’s a lot of impacts and ways that it affects the game that. I think it may not even be readily apparent if that makes any sense.
[00:13:14] Rob Brost: Yeah. No question. No question. Because before if you’re, I’ll just give an example, like if you were down with 40 seconds to go, when do you start fouling?
You kind of go for a steal until about the 20 second mark. And then you start fouling. Well, if there’s 40 seconds now, do you just play it out and then hope that you get a stop rather than try to give them free points that you don’t need to? Or do you, if a certain guy has the ball, you foul him like you kind of did in the past with 40 seconds to go. And then with other guys, we’re not going to foul and let the, let the time just tick. So there’s so much more nuance to the shot clock that I think even coaches sometimes don’t realize are going to happen. And I just spent the last five or six days out in Colorado Springs, helping select the U 17 national team.
And there we’re playing all FIBA rules. So, it’s 24 second shot clock. If you get an offense rebound, it’s 14. So, you really need to get into your stuff and you really need to understand you know, the pace of play and all those things. So, it just adds a whole nother dynamic to the game.
[00:14:25] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, that end of game stuff is super interesting to me in terms of taking out the intentional file out of the game, or at least making you consider whether or not to do it.
In Ohio this past season, we did away with the one and one. So everything was same five fouls per quarter. And I still, I don’t know about you, Rob, but I still can’t watch, like I watched games this year.
[00:14:51] Rob Brost: Yeah.
[00:14:52] Mike Klinzing: And I just. I’m like, wait, the dude’s going to the line for two. I’m like, where’s the one on one? Where’s the pressure?
[00:15:01] Rob Brost: I almost like it better if everything’s a one on one. Yeah, I agree. There’s no, like on a shooting foul, I get it and you missed it. You get two, but everything after five should be a one on one up to 20. Like, who cares? Make the kid step up there and make a free throw because that’s what it is.
And so I’d almost like the opposite to have happened rather than the two shots, but anyways, they don’t really consult me and I give my opinion all the time and nobody really cares. Although the Shot Clock thing, I got several texts from people once it passed, like, thanks for all your help with that.
But there was other coaches that did a lot more work than I did here in the state of Illinois. So, I really appreciate it. I’m just glad that it’s here, but it’s going to bring a lot of nuance, not only for the coaches and the players, but for the crowd to be educated and the parents to be educated what some of the strategies are, right.
Absolutely. And so that’s going to take some time as well. So at any rate, I’m just excited that it’s here. Bottom line.
[00:16:02] Mike Klinzing: I like the idea that you can come back. It makes coming back.
[00:16:05] Rob Brost: Yes.
[00:16:06] Mike Klinzing: And it makes it so that basketball is still being played in order for that comeback to take place. Now, look, you can still foul if you want to, if that’s the route that you choose to go.
So it gives you multiple ways to be able to get back into a game. That’s what I didn’t like about the Ohio rule of going to two shot fouls. I thought it made it much more difficult for a team that was down to come back. It pretty much negates the strategy of fouling because even your worst foul shooters are going to probably go up there and make 50 percent right, right.
[00:16:41] Rob Brost: When there’s a lot less pressure, it’s just points. When you got two shots, it’s guaranteed points, but one on one. You know, and it puts a little heat on that shooter as well. And like I said just two minutes earlier, I wish it was the exact opposite. Everything after five was a one on one and that’s it.
Obviously, if you get fouled on a shooting foul, then you would get two. You know, it’s, it’s interesting and I don’t think they’re going to change the rule because of this podcast.
[00:17:07] Mike Klinzing: Probably not. It’s sad to me. There’s going to be a whole generation of kids that I’m going to say, Hey, that’s a one on one.
And they’re going to be like, what are you talking about? I don’t even know what that is. So that makes me a little sad, but anyway, all right, Rob topic number two, we kind of hinted at it. And in a way it dovetails nicely with topic number one about just teaching your team and learning how to handle different situations in regard to the shot clock.
But just the question is how do you, within your practices, how do you build in time for special situations. And by special situations, I mean, out of bounds plays. I mean, strategy in the last two minutes. Do you put time on a clock and have the two teams go at each other and kind of talk about decision making?
Just how do you incorporate those special situations? Because as you mentioned, if you just line up and practice your same out of bounds play 15 times in a row, it’s not really realistic to how that’s going to occur in a game. So just give me an idea of how you, as you said, insert that randomness into your special situations in practice.
[00:18:11] Rob Brost: I think the special situations have to be random, right? Within practice. And so, for example, we’ll be doing it, and now this is assuming we already have the sideline out of bounds or the inbounds under in so that people know what it is, our players know it, and they know what’s happening, and so, like, in between our 11 man fast break drill, as soon as we get done with that, I might say, two minutes on the clock, sideline out of bounds You know, red team up five or down five or down one, whatever it is.
And then we just do it from there. And so there’s no, the kids don’t know that it’s coming is what I’m saying. And so I’ll just say, okay, this is what we have now. Certain team is red. Certain team is white. There’s two minutes on the clock. You’re down three, you have the ball. Everything’s a two shot foul.
Let’s go. And then we’ll play it out. And then we’ll talk it out. And so the kids, meaning the players, can call a timeout themselves and they can meet, but the coaches are not involved at that point. They can’t even make a suggestion. They’re just officiating or whatever they’re doing. My job is to observe that.
And then once that two minute segment is over, then we talk about some of the decisions that were made, right? And so if it’s a super egregious thing with a minute 15 and there’s still a minute 15, I might say, Hey fellas, what are you doing? You might want to rethink this a second. Just take a time out and rethink what you’re doing right here.
So I like the randomness about it. And I like that the coaches are not involved. And so that way they’re making decisions, meaning the players, and I’ll tell them how many timeouts they have. And they kind of, I don’t want to say get used to, but they know what these things are when we do them. It’s just the randomness of them and whatever the situation is.
Right. And so it might be out of bounds under with four seconds left. Let’s play we’re down one and then we play it out and then we get a drink right after that. Right. Right. And so you know, we’ll just do those kind of starting after the first week of practice, I would say we would insert two or three of those types of things right into practice and it’ll just be listed as situation one.
And then I’ll just give a narrative of whatever the situation is. I’ll have a list of the two teams and then we play. The, like I said, the players can call timeout if they want. And usually each team has one. And then the coaches are not involved. And then we’ll do other ones where I’ll give both teams and assistant coach is their head coach and they can do whatever they want.
If they want to meet with them, they can meet or we’re out of timeouts or like I’ll give one team a timeout, the other team’s out of timeout. So it’s completely random with the situation and when we’re doing it and all of those things. So that’s how we. Kind of practice those situations if you will, but you know, I can’t tell you how many timeouts I’ve gone into and I’ll say, Hey, this is really similar to what we did two weeks ago.
Remember that where we had the thing and it’s not the exact same thing, but it’s darn close. And I said, remember that decision we made with one minute to go. Where we ran such and such, and we were up one and we took a three instead of hunting the paint and getting fouled. Remember that when we did that in practice?
This is where we are again right now. And so just the familiarity of a situation similar and where we’ve been through it before. And obviously they’re, they’re never going to be exactly the same, like ever. And so, but. I can tell you, like, I remember timeouts from this past season where I go in there and say, Hey, remember this from practice or even remember this from two games ago when we were in a similar position and we fouled a shooter and we were down two and then just stuff like that.
So we want my practices have changed. When I first started, I wanted clean practices where everything was perfect and nobody made any mistakes. And now I want almost the exact opposite. I want a lot of, not mistakes necessarily, but a lot of randomness, a lot of reactions to what situations we put them in, and they have to make decisions based on what’s happening around them, just like a game.
And so we want the randomness to be really a huge part of the practice, if that makes sense.
[00:22:58] Mike Klinzing: Oh, it does. Do you see in the course of doing that, do you see your team leaders emerge through those situations where players have to get together and all of a sudden you’re like, man, I hear this guy’s voice more than, anyone else’s.
Is that something that you look for that you then kind of develop those guys as vocal leaders? And obviously there’s all different types of leadership, but I would just imagine in those situations that you’re seeing the guys who are, okay, this guy’s on this team. I can already predict before we start this, that when they get together and talk that this guy’s going to be the driving voice behind what’s going on.
[00:23:39] Rob Brost: Yes. I think it’s, A lot of it is that what you just said, but even more of it is staying calm and being able to make decisions despite the adversity that’s happening to you. For example, I’ll say one of the situations is, Hey, there’s two minutes to go. You’re down nine and the other team has the ball.
Well, immediately before we’ve ever practiced this, we’ll get three or four guys like, dude, we got no shot. We’re down nine. What are we supposed to do? We’re down. And then we just play it out. And then I’ll say something like if we’re playing one of our rivals and we were down nine, would everybody be freaking out and like saying, we have no chance to win?
Is that what you would do then? No, you would figure out or try to figure out the best mode of winning the game. And so that’s what you should start to do here. So I think it creates less panic when you get into those situations. And I’ll give you a perfect example. Last year in our second game, we were ranked in the top five or so.
And we were down, I think, 19 to nine at the end of the first quarter. And. You know, everybody was calm. Nobody was yelling. Nobody was like, God, I can’t believe we’re down 10 to these guys. You know, we just went about our business. We ended up winning by like 15. And so because of the randomness of the situation that we put them in and practice, and because we emphasize figuring things out in those types of situations, I think we’re more equipped to react better, if that makes sense.
Certainly the leadership has. a lot to do with it from the players, but ultimately the calmness and the reaction of in particular, the head coach, but all the coaches when you get into those situations to just understand, like, we got this, we just need to do better. We need to do this better and this better.
And every time out is one or two things and that’s it. And just keep going. We’ll just keep going and, and, and play. And so the randomness helps with all of that. When you get into games where crazy stuff happens, right? Like a kid hits four, three pointers in a row and they’re on a 12 Oh run. Like, Whoa.
But it works the other way too, because we go on a lot of runs ourselves. And so. You know, last year, I remember saying several times, like, remember the last time we went on like a 15 to two run, then they made three threes in a row. Cause we, we kind of relaxed and we hesitated and we thought kind of, we had the game in hand.
Remember that that’s why they’re calling a timeout. So let’s not allow that to happen this time. And so I think like I’ve talked about several times, I do a lot of stuff by feel and just by how I feel the game is going you know, And I make my decisions based off of feel. And so I want our kids to be able to have the freedom to do the same thing.
And they can’t do that. If everything is so rigid that they can’t make any decisions and it’s, it’s never an, if that situation, or if they do that, we do this, it’s never as simple as that, and so We give our kids a lot of decision making ability, but at the same time, we’re the coaches for a reason, right?
So we’re going to make suggestions and say, Hey, what are you seeing out there? What do we need to do better? Those types of things. So I think just the randomness of all of that and the situational things that you need to put in. If you can just put them in little by little, like we don’t have a 10 minute segment, every practice where we do a situation and then we do three different situations.
We don’t do it like that. We put it in a random thing. Like after we get done with our fast break drill, then I’ll just throw in a situation. Then we’ll be working on whatever defensive positioning or whatever it is. Then right after that, I’ll put in another one. And so we start doing that in week one.
And at the end of week one, once we’ve had time to put in our inbounds unders, our sidelines and those types of things. And then that’s when we start doing the situational stuff. And so it’s completely random. The guys don’t know really when it’s coming and even our assistants, like when I’ll hand them the practice plan, I’m like, well, what is this one?
Well, this is the one we’re doing today. And so but then my assistants will try to get jump on it. Like the next one, like coach, maybe we should do this situation or maybe we should do that. And that’s really helpful for me too. Cause I’m not the smartest guy that you do a podcast with. So I need all the help I can get to put our guys in situations that A, they’re going to be in and then B at least be comfortable, whatever those situations are.
[00:28:28] Mike Klinzing: You mentioned about timeouts. And I think it’s a good point. I just want to hit on it here just briefly because I think it kind of fits into this special situation idea. You talked about having one or two key points in a timeout. And I know that I, as a coach. I’m not very good at that. Like I’m the 17 things that I just noticed that I want to share with somebody.
And so tell me about how, when you call a timeout or the other team calls a timeout, what’s the process that you go through in your mind? I know a lot of what you talk about is, Hey, I just coached by feel and kind of figure that out. But as you call a timeout or your opponent calls a timeout, how do you think about, okay, what are the most important things that my team needs in this moment? Do you have a specific way that you think about it or just how do you go about designing a timeout?
[00:29:18] Rob Brost: Well, usually I’ll meet with my assistants for 10 to 15 seconds just quickly before I go in there. And depending on what they say my job is to sift all of that. And there’s usually a lot of things that are being thrown at me at that point.
And I’ll have an idea of what I want to say anyways, just by going off the feel, but I try to keep it to one or two key things. And then first mention something that we’re doing well, then mention the one or two key things that we need to do better. And then the third thing is just a reminder about. You know, something else, like a lot of times it’s a reminder to give reminders, right?
Like we tell our guys give reminders before they’re necessary because they’re no good after they’re necessary. Just keep doing that. And so let’s stay together. You know, things certain things I’ll just say when I first get in there, like, Hey, really important that we stay together right now.
Let’s lock in. This is what we need to do. This second thing, let’s give lots of reminders and let’s keep burying these guys or whatever the situation is. And then that’s basically it. Now, obviously we’ll draw something up, but if we need to, but another thing I’ve been doing a lot of, and I did a lot of it last year is I’ll let my assistants go in to the timeout sometimes and they can run the timeout.
And so that does several things in my opinion. It, A, tells the assistant coach that I trust him. And that I trust what they’re going to say in there. And then B, it gives our players a more comfort level with those assistants and it gives them I don’t ever want it to be perceived like what I say goes and what everybody else says we don’t ever do.
And so a lot of times I have to overrule some of their suggestions and I know that can get irritating as an assistant coach sometimes. So one of the ways I combat that piece of it is we’ll meet and then one of my assistants name is Brandon and he’ll say, Coach, what about this on offense?
And I’ll say, okay, good. Here, you go, you go tell them. And then I’ll hand them the board and then he goes in and I don’t even I’ll go get a drink of water or whatever. Or, or I’ll say you tell him that, but also remind them of this and then he’ll say, okay. And then, another one of my coach’s name is Paul.
He’s in charge of the defense. He’ll say, coach, we need to do a better job of blitzing the ball screens or whatever it is that we’re working on. I’ll say you go in and tell them, but also tell them this, this, this. And then that’s it. And so you know, I think the timeouts have to be focused, but very brief and only one or two key items and that’s it.
And so I can’t tell you how many times I go in timeouts and I’ll literally just say, Hey, we got to stay together. Somebody needs to make a play. That’s what needs to happen here. I don’t even know what that play is, but you’re going to have to make a play. And then that’s it. That’s literally the whole thing.
And my manager’s handed me a board and I don’t even use it. And so I’m really probably I’ve gone too far on the other side where I don’t try to predict everything that’s going to happen and micromanage the game. Really at all anymore. And so. I don’t know if that’s a strength or a weakness, but I’m just a lot more comfortable because I have really good assistants.
That’s the first piece of it. And then B, I want everybody to feel involved and not that it’s my show, that it’s our thing, and so I try to give them as much autonomy as I can. And let them do the timeouts and take the timeouts if need be. Now, obviously there’s certain times where I just take it and go with it.
Right. And, and that’s off of feel as well. And so people say all the time, well, you just do that cause you’re good. Or you only do that when you’re up 20. No, no, I’ll do it. I did it in the sectional final last year, several times. And so I just think it helps everybody.
Including the kids, mostly, because if it didn’t help them, then why would I do it? And that’s ultimately who we want to help become better players, right? And better people as them. And so obviously it helps with my assistants. And it really helps that I have assistants that have been head coaches before, and it really helps that.
Our assistants are totally bought into what we’re doing. All of that helps. I get that. And so I know some head coaches, you don’t have the, I don’t know if trust is the right word, but maybe they’re not ready to handle timeouts or maybe they’re not prepared enough to handle timeouts. So I’m not saying that’s for everybody.
That’s just where we’re at as a program at this particular point.
[00:34:16] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, I think the kind of wrap up this topic, I always go back to a thread that has run through many of our conversations, which is that you have often said that as you’ve matured as a coach and as you had more experience that you’ve delegated more and more and theoretically are doing, at least from the outside, somebody who’s looking at it who doesn’t necessarily understand that you’re actually doing less than somebody who’s observing practice or a game would say, man, coach Brost from 15 years ago, compared to coach bros today, he looks like he’s not doing hardly anything.
And I always go back to the point that you’ve made, that you felt like your program really took off when you were able to believe enough in the people around you to delegate some of those tasks. And then that freed you up to. Again, use some of your skills and talents to kind of see all that high level stuff and to be able to.
To impact and help your coaches grow and help your players. And so I think that’s been a theme that’s run through a lot of our conversations, Rob.
[00:35:21] Rob Brost: There’s no doubt. And I say this at a ton of the clinics that I speak at, my job is not to coach all the players. My job is to make sure all the players get coached.
Right. And so and that goes from all the way from our varsity kids, all the way down to the freshmen. Right. And so it’s more of a CEO approach, I guess you would say. Right. But I try to be And I’ve used this analogy maybe a couple of times here, but like our program is like a big ship, right?
There’s a ton of stuff going on and we’re going down and I’m just the little rudder in the back. But if the little rudder in the back gets out of whack, that thing is going into the iceberg, right? And we’re just going to go down. If that rudder is not pointing in the right direction and then making sure that.
Everything is happening the way that it should be. And so that’s what I am. I’m the little rudder on the back that prevents the thing from going ashore. But at the same time, we can go pretty straight and we can go for a long time. If. You know, I’m overseeing everything that needs to be done. And then if I can handle things in the right way and create relationships, the whole thing.
So now this is getting philosophical and not really how we handle situations on sideline imbalance and stuff. But everything kind of goes back to that anyways.
[00:36:41] Mike Klinzing: Absolutely. All right. Topic number three, when you are developing and thinking about Working with your players from a player development, skill development standpoint, are you dividing them up by positions?
I think about teams that I’ve played on, that I’ve coached on where You’d go, I remember as a high school player, our coaches, we’d always go, all right, big, little in one group with the bigs would go down to one end and work on some stuff. And then the guards would go down at the other end and we just, that was what it was called was big, little. And at the same time, I’ve been on teams and coached on teams where you’re doing player development work and every player, regardless of whether you’re the six, six post player, or you’re the five, eight point guard, everybody’s working on. So maybe you got everybody working on footwork in the post, or maybe you got everybody working on ball screens, so that guys are handling the ball.
So how do you think about just developing players overall in terms of, are you looking specifically at positions? Is it a mismatch of sometimes we put everybody together, sometimes we break it down? individually. How do you think about that?
[00:37:51] Rob Brost: I think it’s a balance, right? Because certain players have certain strengths, right?
And your job as a coach is to pull out the strengths of a player. And so it’s, it’s, it’s kind of like parenting you, you got to find the correct balance of that. And so my direct answer to that is, It just depends on the players that you have on your team, right? And whatever, whatever skillset they currently are at.
That’s why it’s important for you to know everybody. As an individual and all of those things. And so certainly when I meet with a player at the end of the season, like, what should I work on? What should my workouts look like? What should I, well, the skills that you need to develop are what you need to work on, but how does that fit into our team?
Right. And what do we already have? And so all of that kind of rules the development piece, right? So I can’t say next year, our development piece is going to look a little different than what it looks like this year, if that makes sense. Because I’ll give you an example. JT is going to be a senior. He’s a returning all state player for us.
He’s about 6’7 He came here with a five man skill set last year. I said, by the end of next year, I want you to have a four man skill set. And by the end of your senior year, I want you to have a three man skill set. Right. And so his development. helps him, but it also helps the team, right? The more versatile he is.
And so individually wrapping them up. And if he’s doing a workout with my son, for example, who’s a pure point guard, who’s just a point guard, and he won’t be anything else because of his size and his stature and all, all that stuff and what he’s good at. You know, It’s a little combination of things.
So certainly we’ll work on shooting the three. We’ll work on some ball handling and doing all that stuff because the big, as you put it, needs to work on that too. But we’ll put them in pick and roll situations, all of those things. So I think it’s just a balance of where you think your team is at and how you play as a philosophy and what skill sets you want your players to develop.
And so we like to have the lane open. We like to attack the paint and put pressure on the rim so we don’t have a pure post up guy right now in our program. Now, don’t get me wrong, JT can post up and sometimes we do that and he works on that obviously. and some other guys that we have that are bigs that we can take advantage of that.
But from a philosophy standpoint, we like to keep the lane open and drive and kick and playoff advantage, all of those things. Right now. So I think it’s a balance of all of that, if that makes sense. So we’re, we don’t just lump them all together and make them all do the same thing.
We don’t do that. But a lot of what we ask our players to do is similar because we need them all to be able to face the basket and at least be a threat, especially off the dribble. And so the development piece. Is a tricky one because not only are they hearing from me, but they’re hearing from their trainer, their parents, their uncle everybody’s social media all of that stuff.
So I’ve kind of. Not worried about that as much as I used to, because as long as they’re in the gym and they’re working, I think that’s where the main thing lies because they’re developing good habits then, right? And so I know there’s probably somebody listening at home like, well, what if they’re not working on the right stuff?
Then it doesn’t matter what the habits are. I get that I can only control so much of what they’re working on and I’ll give them suggestions and we’ll make up workouts that they can do on their own and all of those things, but once they get in with their trainer or whoever, they’re going to work on whatever they want to work on anyway.
So that’s kind of a roundabout answer to your original question. But I think that’s kind of how we do it.
[00:42:02] Mike Klinzing: I like the idea of expanding the player’s skillset, right? So you have to have an understanding of, okay, where is this guy now? Like he can do this particular thing well, or he fits into, in what we do, he fits into this slot in our offense, but the more versatile we can make that player, the better off they’re going to be because now they can slide across positions.
And if they, especially if they can guard, multiple positions. I mean, a lot of times we discount defensive development when we think player development. I don’t know about you, but the first thing that comes into my mind always is offense and player development and getting better. We sometimes forget in the player development world that defense is 50 percent of the game.
And so what’s interesting is hearing you talk about your players and obviously hearing you talk about Trey and just how you kind of have helped him to develop. And one of the things that I did with my son this summer is, We’re trying to find guys and for people out there, I think most people know, but my son’s six, six and he’s a post.
He’s going to go play division three and he primarily plays inside. So he’ll screen and roll it to the basket. And he can make a 12 to 15 footer fairly consistently and, and that kind of thing. at the college level, that’s going to sort of pigeonhole him to some degree in terms of offensively what he can and can’t do.
So one of the things we’ve talked about is exactly what you just described is how can we take what you do well, continue to make sure that that’s a strength, but can we expand that strength? What you can do so you can now step out on the floor and face up and put the ball on the floor and get to the rim or now can you knock down a college three if you’re being left open?
Because again, guys are sagging in or helping or whatever the case may be. And so what we started to do, we found a kid who is actually in our league, who’s an all league point guard, who was as a sophomore, he’s probably going to end up being, I would think, a division one. college point guard. And so my son just started working out with them and playing one on one.
So here’s a kid who, again, doesn’t play the same position. They’re not necessarily working from the same base of a skillset, but yet from my son’s perspective, He’s going to have a little 6’1 guy down around his waist digging at the ball as he’s, as he’s trying to put it on the floor and do things.
And then conversely, here’s a 6’1 point guard who has a 6’6 kid who moves well, who now you’re coming off a screen and maybe there is a switch. And so you got to used to be able to shoot over a guy that’s has length. And so there’s just a lot of benefit for those two kids, even though you might from the outside say, Hey, those two guys don’t really.
They don’t really fit together in terms of two guys who should be going against each other, but yet I think it’s almost a perfect match because again, they, they provide challenges to one another in unconventional ways that helps them both to expand what they’re doing. So it’s, it’s really an interesting, I think player development sometimes we get caught up in.
You’ve got to be doing this for your position. And look again, you got to double down on your strengths and you clearly want to make those. But if you’re, if you’re looking at, well, how do I, how do I get better? What can you add to your game to be able to just make you a little bit more versatile, harder to guard?
And then conversely, how can you make sure that you can guard multiple positions? The more position, as you well know, the more positions you can guard. Man, the easier it is for you to find playing time, especially in the way the game is played today with as much switching as is done at every single level of the game.
[00:45:42] Rob Brost: There’s no doubt about it. And I seven or eight years ago, I got to spend some time with Kevin Eastman, who was an assistant in the NBA for a long time. And he kind of put it like this to me, He said every kid is capable of a certain level. He or she is only doing a certain amount. And so that’s called a capability gap.
And your job as a coach is to close that up with the help of the player as much as possible. Now, not too many guys are going to close it up all the way. And very few do, but your job as a coach is to help the player close that capability gap. And, and he put it that way to me and it has made sense to me in so many different situations, not only with basketball, but what, what we do from a leadership standpoint and how we develop leaders and what people are capable of and what they’re actually doing.
And so that capability gap that Kevin Eastman talked about with me, it had to be seven or eight years ago when I was able to spend some time with him. And, and that has stuck with me you know, all the way through here is closing that capability gap, not only for players, but also for myself.
Like I am capable of. this, but I’m only getting this much. So my job is to close that up and close that gap up as much as possible. So I think that all plays into that individual training and development.
[00:47:09] Mike Klinzing: It absolutely does. I think you’re bringing it to the coaching side of it that I think that there is When I consider myself as a coach, when I consider myself just as a human being, that capability gap is something that if you have a passion for whatever it is you do, whether you’re a player and you want to close it or whether you’re a coach, I think it becomes, again, one of those pursuits that is just something that it’s a passion, right?
So you love The idea of being able to close that, like your, I think about you as a coach, like the number of things that you’re doing to a, like this conversation with me, not that, not that it’s every single time that, man, I’m just bestowing a bunch of wisdom to you, but by hopefully by having the conversation, you and I, I feel like again, where I was six years ago before the podcast, I feel like I am so much more knowledgeable about the game of basketball. And I also feel like I know so much less about it at the same time because of all the smart minds that I talk to. And so I think if you’re, again, a player or you’re a coach, when you have passion for what you’re doing, you’re constantly just looking for ways of how can I get closer to what it is that I want to be.
And I think that’s what we’re talking about. So to get back to kind of my original question and summarize that we talk about how do you design. It basically comes down to you have to individualize it for each player, what they need, and then be able to give them the tools that allow them to improve and ultimately expand their capabilities so that they’re a more versatile player.
And again, sometimes that looks different. Sometimes that could be, Hey, everybody needs to work on this because it’s part of our offense. Everybody needs to play off two feet when we get into the lane. So that’s a, that’s a skill that like every player, I don’t care what you’re doing. Every player needs to have that.
So that’s something that you can work on with everybody. Conversely, You might not need every player on your team to be able to come off a ball screen and make reads and throw a pocket pass. So it’s just, you have to figure out, right, what works within the confines of your team, your offense, and then what each individual player brings to the table.
I think that’s the best way to kind of summarize sort of that conversation that we just put together.
[00:49:33] Rob Brost: No doubt. I think you did a great job with that. And that’s probably something that I wouldn’t be able to do myself. So to your point this podcast itself has helped me immensely grow as not only as a coach, but as a person and then as a father and as a husband and all of the things that you want to be at a high level at being right. And a lot of those, most of those aren’t basketball specific. Most of those are how you treat people and how you develop relationships and all that. It just happens that basketball is the piece that brings us together. Just like our kids, like we want to help develop them.
And it just so happens that I’m the dad of two. And so that brings us together. And so but you’re really trying to do a lot of the similar things with all the people that you come in contact with. And I get it, you’re not as close to some and you’re closer to your players than you are most other people.
And I get that, but that’s all part of it as well, right? And so I think it all relates and it all like I talk to our guys sometimes, it’s, it’s the coming together of the system and your ability and those things meshing together That’s why we’re good. It’s not just because of the system or just because of what I put in place.
And it’s not just because our players are good. It’s the meshing of all of those things. And so when you can mesh all of those things together and it works, and then you can repeat that over and over with different mesh points, if that makes sense, because you have different people each time. And so that’s what makes a really good coach, I think.
And that’s what makes a really good program. is meshing the two things together and letting your kids have some say in that. And then you have some say in that. It’s not one or the other. You know, I see on both ends of the spectrum, right? A lot of teams have a ton of talent. They can’t mesh the system together, or they don’t go hard or whatever.
And then I see some that have great systems, but the skill sets of the players aren’t exactly together yet. So, You really have to mesh the two together. And that’s what really coaching is. And again, now I’ve gone into the weeds on a philosophical thing, right? Right from your question.
[00:52:01] Mike Klinzing: No, you haven’t. So I’m going to bring it back. I’m going to wrap those two things together from question number two or topic number two to topic number three, right? So in topic number two, we’re talking about the system, right? Yeah. We’re talking about special situations, we’re talking about coaching.
We’re talking about putting players in situations in practice to prepare them for what they’re going to see. So that’s, that’s the system, that’s the coaching, that’s designing your practice, where again, you’re stepping back in those moments and letting your players handle that, but still you had to take the time to prepare that situation beforehand to think about what am I trying to get my players to understand through putting them in this situation.
So that’s the team side of it. That’s the coach side of it. Sort of preparing. That’s like setting the table. Right. And then the player development side of it is now that’s like, you got to take the ingredients and put them into the practice and develop those. And the better ingredients you have, the better that system is going to work.
And so I think that’s how these two topics. And it clearly, I didn’t go into this conversation thinking that that connection that that’s how we were going to connect it. But as we’re talking, that’s what’s coming into my head is you have the system over here, as you said, and then on the other side, you have the players.
And when you put those two together and you’ve maximized both. To quote the Kevin Eastman, the capability gap of, I’m trying to make the most of my system as a coach. And then conversely, I’m trying to get my players as close to that. Now you put those teams, two things together, and that’s where the secret sauce is.
That’s where you can, that’s where you can win a lot of games and have a lot of success, both the scoreboard, but also just with developing people. And to me, I think that makes. Again, it’s just a synergy that fits together perfectly.
[00:53:47] Rob Brost: Right on. I think you’re exactly right. How you brought all those pieces together and I couldn’t have done it better myself.
And so this is why you’re the host of this podcast because you can do things like this. And so just like the synergy of a team and individuals, The synergy of us being together makes this podcast hopefully unique and worth listening to for people out there. And I appreciate you and how you do your thing and how it relates to the basketball piece and you’re really great at what you do.
And I’m honored to be on here with you every time we do one of these.
[00:54:23] Mike Klinzing: Well, the feeling is by far mutual. I look at the success that you’ve had as a coach and the things that you do and the people that you’ve impacted both on and off the floor. And again, I’m always honored just to be able to have you as a part of it.
And it’s just the conversations that we have every time, Rob, even though we trade the topics beforehand, it’s always interesting to me that we again, end up going off in slightly different directions that to me always end up with an interconnection. There’s always sort of a rhyme behind the reason of what we’re doing.
And the conversations always, as I say all the time, I walk away far more enlightened than probably I have any right to feel after having a conversation with you and on the pod. So the Triple Double has been a blast where I think right about at we’re close to a year here. number 11, next year will be 12.
So that’ll be a year’s worth of them. I’m so glad that we connected back in Louisville, back that back a year ago and put this thing together. It’s been a lot of fun, as you said, multiple times, hopefully anybody who’s out there listening, find value in it. Cause I think if nothing else, Rob, you and I walk away feeling, feeling like we got something out of it.
So from a selfish standpoint, you and I are having a conversation that’s always just a lot of fun.
[00:55:41] Rob Brost: That’s exactly right. And hopefully we can keep it going for another year or two or three or however long we can keep it going. So
[00:55:48] Mike Klinzing: Rob and Trey are head to head to Italy here in a couple of days. So we will be back in the month of July at some point for Triple Double number 12. So thank you, Rob, for joining us here for triple double number 11. Hopefully we’ll get Jason back for number 12 and to all of you out there listening. We really appreciate it and we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks.