DR. ROB BELL – MENTAL TOUGHNESS COACH & AUTHOR OF THE BOOK “PUKE & RALLY” – EPISODE 756

Website – https://drrobbell.com/

Email – drrobbell@gmail.com

Twitter – @drrobbell

Dr. Rob Bell is a mental toughness coach who has worked with athletes in a variety of sports at all levels.  He has coached PGA Tour Winners, Olympic Medalists, a USTA National Champion, and the Indy Eleven Pro Soccer team.  Dr. Bell is the author of seven books on mental toughness, including his latest, Puke & Rally.  He has been featured on ESPN, FOX NEWS, The Golf Channel, New York Times, Runner’s World, & Stack Magazine.

Dr. Bell also speaks to businesses and corporations including Marriott, Walgreens, Morgan Stanley, and the PGA of America, among many others. He has been a certified consultant since 2006 for the Association for Applied Sport Psychology.

Dr. Bell is the host of his own sport psychology podcast- 15 Minutes of Mental Toughness.

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Take some notes on improving your mental toughness as you listen to this episode with Dr. Rob Bell.

What We Discuss with Dr. Rob Bell

• “The effort that you’re putting into sports translates into real life.”
• How pick-up play teaches kids to self-govern and be creative
• How falling off an 80 foot cliff in college ended his baseball career, but started his path to sports psychology
• “If you ever get a second chance of life, you have to go all the way.”
• “Helping athletes perform their best when it matters the most.”
• “I always try to tell athletes and teams…no matter how bad your situation is, no matter how bleak an outcome looks, it only takes one to turn everything around .”
• “The problem is, you don’t know when that moment’s coming. That’s the importance of preparation. That’s the importance of being ready. That’s the importance of always finishing the drill and never going through the motions, because you don’t know when that opportunity’s going to happen.”
• Debriefing with athletes after games, identifying the successes and the stumbles
• “Make sure you are celebrating and enjoying the process along the way.”
• “You have to understand your identity outside of sport. You have to understand that this is just something you do.”
• “You have to allow yourself leeway to make mistakes.”
• :”Show me somebody that can let go of mistakes, I will show you somebody that is mentally tough.”
• Ben Simmons and his biggest mistake
• Letting the bad stuff out by talking about it and recognizing the feeling when things are going well
• “Whatever it is that we want to do, man, you have to be able to do it because it’s not going to wait for you.”
• The process of becoming an author multiple times and improving as a writer
• “Setbacks are inevitable. Every one of us pukes. What does it take to rally?”
• Making adjustments along the way drives success
• “They don’t boo nobodies”
• “If you reach any level of success, you’re going to be hated by half of the people.”
• “Confidence is king, but focus is queen.”
• Key elements of mental toughness – motivation/drive, confidence, focus, and refocus
• “Knowing when do we need to be urgent and how do we be patient?”
• “I love planting trees that that I’m not going to see.”

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THANKS, DR. ROB BELL

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TRANSCRIPT FOR DR. ROB BELL – MENTAL TOUGHNESS COACH & AUTHOR OF THE BOOK “PUKE & RALLY” – EPISODE 756

[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here with my co-host Jason Sunkle tonight. And we are pleased to be joined by Dr. Rob Bell, sports psychology coach, speaker, author of the new book, Puke and Rally. Rob, welcome to the Hoop Heads Pod.

[00:00:15] Dr. Rob Bell: Hey, thanks for having me, Mike, Jason. Appreciate it man.

[00:00:18] Mike Klinzing: Absolutely excited to have you on. Looking forward to diving into all the interesting things that you’ve been able to do in your career. We’re going to definitely talk a little bit about the book. Let’s start by going back in time to when you were a kid. Tell me a little bit about your athletic background, how you got into sports when you were younger.

[00:00:33] Dr. Rob Bell: Great question, man. I always love that question too because I mean, sports was really just my entire life. Everything. And I was always like, my daughter even now will say, what Daddy? Like, you’re great at everything. Right? It’s really odd to me sometimes to see kids, like some kids that just don’t have any physical capability at all, because they never had to run.

Right? It’s like to watch a kid that’s never thrown a ball or, or kick a ball,it’s just really foreign to me. So it’s like my daughter would say, daddy, like, you’re so great at everything. I said, no, no, no, I’m good at everything. Like I can play anything, but I’m not great at anything. You know what I mean?

It was like not until like later years, but man, I mean, baseball and soccer were probably my best loves man. But I mean, it was Every single sport I absolutely loved, whether it was like pogo stick or if it was like John giant slalom skiing man, or tennis or if it’s going to be basketball, I may still think NCAA basketball.

The tournament’s probably the best sporting event like that there is. That’s really, I still never change on that. And growing up, man, I mean, when Wimbledon would come I remember like, I would practice, but I would come in, I’d watch every single match of like Wimbledon. It was like we had like HBO at that time from round one on as much as I could.

I mean, so I was just, sports really was my entire life. So growing up and then kind of getting off the tracks a little bit, and I can always share about that, but it was like I knew something in my world was going to be within sports. I mean, that’s, that’s how much it was. And it was always like, how do we make this transition?

This part of sport. And that’s what I love about athletes today. It’s like being able to look at ’em. It’s like, look, you have to realize that the effort that you’re putting in this translates into real life, if you can kind of see how these dots are going to connect.

You know, because these skills are going to last way beyond when sport is over. And that’s why I’m just a Honk, I think when it comes to athletics and sport in general.

[00:02:33] Mike Klinzing: Did athletics, did that come from your family or was that something that you sort of came to on your own as a kid? Or were, or were you coming from a, from an athletic family?

[00:02:44] Dr. Rob Bell: I mean, There weren’t any D one athletes. I mean, my, my dad was an old school football player. My brother played soccer. So you know, my goal was always to be better than him, right. , I mean, and but it was just the fact of you know, being in a small town and you just get out there and you just do it, right?

You just play. So it’s going to be pick up basketball or it’s going to be you know, home run derby or, or whatever it is, or football you just played. So, I mean, that was just it was just kind of the fit on how things went.

[00:03:16] Mike Klinzing: What’s your take on how kids grow up today versus the way that you grew up with sports?

Because obviously today is far, far different where so much more of our kids sports are organized and parent driven and there’s a coach and versus what you’re describing, which is the same way I grew up, where you’re in the backyard, you’re just making up games with your friends and you’re playing every single sport.

Versus today we know that just the way the system is set up, that it’s harder for kids to dabble in a bunch of different sports. They feel a lot more pressure. Parents I think, feel a lot more pressure on getting into something early because if you don’t know you’re going to fall behind and this and that.

So just what’s your take on how you grew up versus how our kids grow up today?   

[00:03:55] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah, I mean the real quick part is, I mean, we have to, it’s kind of like those that criticize the generation, forget like kind of who raised them, you know what I mean? Correct. And it’s like you know, participation trophies.

It’s more about the parents than it is the kids. You know? It really is. Right. And it’s like, I’ll say, I mean adults, sorry for the tangent. I will go off on tangents, man, but like, we love tangents. Go for it. Yeah, love it man. So it’s like adults think about the adult participation trophies that we have today, because Iowa have, and I will see it, man, that people that run the half-marathon and then just post, I mean, they want to post that finishing medal.

That’s their participation trophy. You know, look, there’s nothing wrong with it, man. That’s great, man. You ran it. You know what I mean? But it’s like we kind of take that same viewpoint and then just have it on to the kids as well. So it’s like the part that I think misses, so I guess my whole thing is like we still need to adapt to how things change instead of just always wishing for things that they, like.

They were, I mean, I get geeked up, like when I will see pickup game, like I saw a pickup game, no adults around, I just sat and watched. Cause I wanted to see like how that kind of transpired and loved it, man. You know, it was a wiffle ball game. I mean, I just love that stuff because sport teaches whatever he wanted to teach.

And when it’s just the kids that are doing it, they have to one, they have to self-govern themselves, right? So if anybody’s going to be cheating or Fallon, whatever it is you call it on yourself, like that’s, you self-govern it. And I think that’s part of a skill of growing up. Like, look, that’s going to last.

You’re going to have to speak up for yourself, sort of thing, right? I mean that skill. The other part though, that thinks even more important is the creativity. And if there’s any thing that really frustrates coaches is when and even college level, it’s when things go wrong, they can’t figure it out.

Where, what’s the precedence that’s been set? Well, when something’s wrong, You have to go here, you have to go here. And they will tell you what it is that you’re doing wrong and then you fix it. Well that, that doesn’t work all the time. Right? And it’s not always going to work. You have to be able to find a way.

You have to be able to figure it out. And part of being able to figure out is when things are going bad and it’s sort of just that creative muscle man. Like if you’ve got the bottle cap that’s going to be second base and then this, this coke , no Coke cup here is third. You have to get creative with that piece.

And it’s like you have to be able to problem solve. And when parents are always involved and they’re the ones that are running it, those are the skills that I see that just aren’t there as much. You know? And it’s like, it becomes coach driven. It becomes parent driven. Kids don’t have to adapt. They don’t have to self-govern.

They don’t have to be creative with it. And those are the skills again, that, I mean, that’s, that’s the real injustice that I think is because you know, with my kids growing up You know, we played, you have to make up a game. So we’d go to the park and be like, Hey, you have to make up a game. And American Ninja Warrior was kind of big.

And so they’d make up like these courses and stuff like that and just like being able to take a stick and like dig it in the ground, right? I mean, there’s something to that, you know what I mean? It’s like what treating you man, be in the moment. Life doesn’t all have to be expectations and stress and results and let, let’s see how great you can, you can dig here.

And that’s part of like going to the beach. I love about man is just kind of digging in the sand and, and creating stuff. But, you know sorry for the tangents, but that’s what I look at, man. The creativity piece. You have to be able to self-govern and you have to be able to figure out and find a way when things aren’t going well.

[00:07:28] Mike Klinzing: Those are three great points and I think when I look at what I do as my day job, so I’m teaching elementary school phys ed and I couldn’t agree with you more. Rob, when I see and hear you describe some of those things, like the ability for kids to self-govern and figure it out and not look to an adult, like a lot of the kids that I teach, their way of trying to figure it out is just screaming at each.

And so they don’t really ever get to a negotiation. It’s just, I’m yelling at you. You’re yelling at me. And then we just kind of are waiting for an adult to step in. Right. To help us figure it out. Versus again, if you have to do that all the time, where if you don’t figure it out, guess what? The game ends and everybody goes home and I don’t get to play.

Well, it’s a little bit different stakes for kids today because somebody’s always, to your point, somebody’s always stepping in. And I think that creativity of being able to understand, okay, well here’s, we want to play baseball, but we’ve only got seven players. How can we make that work? And you can’t hit the ball, the right field or this all the things Yeah.

That you and I grew up with that are just simple things that I think we take for granted that kids today just don’t have that opportunity to do. And it’s, I think it can get frustrating. I think it’s hard for parents because parents just don’t have. We don’t have the same options. We don’t parent in the same way in terms of letting our kids just kind of go out into the neighborhood and, and figure those things out.

So I think this is the whole combination of stuff I’ll be interested to see as, I think this is probably we’re getting towards that first generation of kids who grew up differently in front of screens and having all this parental involvement. You know, thinking about on the basketball side of it, AAU basketball has really taken off in the last, let’s say 10 years for sure, where you have almost everybody who’s playing basketball regardless of your level, you’re playing AAU basketball versus, again, you go back 20 years, 25 years, and kids were still playing on the playground and playing in the driveway and not the kids aren’t doing it today, but they’re not doing it nearly as much as they used to.

So I’ll be curious to see what the results are, what the impact is on this generations of kids as, as they become adults and start to navigate what the adult world looks like.

[00:09:38] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a great point, man. Absolutely.

[00:09:41] Mike Klinzing: All right, so let’s get back to you and kind of your story as you’re going through and you’re, you’re playing athletics, gimme a little bit of your experiences as a high school athlete.

If you look back cross sports, what’s your favorite memory of being a high school athlete?

[00:09:55] Dr. Rob Bell: Whenever I think back on that, I think it’s the same answers as a lot of, like the pro athletes, man. I just think about the relationships. Yeah. A lot. I think about some of those bus rides and, and practical jokes and when it’s going to date me a little bit.

You know what I mean? But it’s like when we’re riding on the bus man, and we had you know, Dave Matthews album came out, you know what I mean? And like everyone was listening to that one, right? Or when Pearl Jam came out and everyone’s listening to that one. You know what I mean? We’re all listening to the same exact thing all on our, like, so many Walkman stuff.

I just kind of think about that stuff and it’s. There was a lot of regret, man, with when I, when I think back of like my high school career because it kind of you know, it just got off sideways. I mean, I was really good, I think younger and kind of relied on that, didn’t work as hard, didn’t know how hard I needed to work at it.

And then when discovered partying in, in high school and that was, I’d take any kind of extra credit for that because you know, there was a lot of pain that was kind of going on. And one way to get rid of that pain is just self-medicate, man. So party and party harder that you can, and that was sort of like, even that was like modeled for me that was coming up.

So, I mean that eventually catches up with you and that caught up with me in high school forced me to, I mean, I got kicked off my soccer team night before senior. High expectations, a lot of embarrassment that went with that. And then that translated into putting so much pressure on myself during you know, when baseball came around that just tried way too hard.

And now you have failure on top of embarrassment. Well, there’s only one way to deal with that, man. The only coping mechanism I had was just party harder. So, right. That translated into college and little division two school in West Virginia for some reason, we were partying you know, go there to play baseball and we’re partying near this bridge and News Bridge was a cliff.

And I end up walking off a 80 foot cliff. I didn’t jump. I wasn’t pushed no idea why we were near there, but just had no idea where I was and hit once and lay him at the bottom. That creamed me up out of it, taking me to the hospital. My mom’s a nurse gaping head wound. I mean fractured my back, broke my arm but I was alive, man and.

Boom, hinge moment because baseball was over from that point. And I, whenever I’m talking like with college students or even high school, I just kind of say, look, you can live your life any way that you want, but just trust me that nothing good happens after midnight. Right? Nothing good’s going to happen after midnight.

You just follow that rule, you’ll be okay. Yep. And then that would cause a lot of pain, man. There was a lot of angst that went with it on messing up and I, this translates into kind of my career because I didn’t know how to cope the own handle with the setbacks and the struggle at the time.

But I got another second chance when I went to grad school. I was always pretty good intellectually, so that you know, I never studied one day in high school, I got to college struggled really hard, but worked my way out of it. But I got into grad school and then I always remember this quote from Lance Armstrong.

And regardless of like how we think about ’em, the quote was pretty righteous. He said, if you ever get a second chance of life, you have to go all the way. And I knew when I got to grad school that I wasn’t going to blow it because I was given a second chance. And I was able to use  that energy and that fuel to keep pushing me forward.

And wasn’t going to blow the next opportunity that I had.

[00:13:23] Mike Klinzing: Prior to your fall, what was the thought process in terms of your career path and what direction you were headed, and then after the fall, did it become clear to you that you wanted to help people to overcome and kind of get that second chance and get into sports psychology?

Was it that clear of a moment for you?

[00:13:43] Dr. Rob Bell: I took a psychology class. I never had psychology at all in high school. And in college. And then when I took it in college, it was tattooed in my heart. This is what I want to do.

I mean, I don’t know how this is going to combine, but I want to combine sport and psychology and, and it just fit and it was tattooed on my heart. This is what I want to do with the rest of my life. And I never ever stayed away from that. There was also Olympics were going on with Dan and Dave commercials back in the time.

Do you remember those? Oh yeah. Decathlon, absolutely. That’s it, man. You know, it’s a, Reebok did a fantastic job bringing awareness onto Decathlon, who, what nobody paid attention to, but they did. Great job. Dan, Dave. And who are you going to root for with Dan O’Brien was on world record pace and No Heights at Olympic trials, so doesn’t even go to the Olympics.

And I started following his career because I’m like, how does that happen? That doesn’t make sense. He sees mental coach, sports psychologist, someone helped him out his routine, distractions with confidence and you know, started following his career. And then I saw I was, oh, this is a career. This is what I want to do.

So it parlayed into that like perfectly. And, and I need to add another point, Mike. It’s like I just thought of like my favorite part of high school sports as well. What I think about the most, sorry that I’m bringing this back up now, but it’s like, no, you’re good. What I honestly remember is running the hill in soccer, and I don’t know why that always stands out to me, man, but I just remember there was, there was some righteousness and a camaraderie and this feeling of togetherness when you have a bunch of other people doing the same hard thing and remember coach kind of playing the you don’t have to do this, Rob.

Like, you don’t have to do this. You get to do this sort of mind trick at the time. Like, oh, okay I kinda get to do it, I get it. But, but it made sense later on and I always loved to train and the training and, and the harder it was, the more I love like pushing it and that that was a skill then that still lasted like way beyond, right?

Because now I do ultramarathons everything, but. Sorry for, again, for the tangent, but that is probably what I think about most when I think about like my sport and career when it comes to it.

[00:15:52] Mike Klinzing: So what are the steps that you take as you decide, okay, sports psychology is where I want to be. Obviously you’re in school, you’re taking the classes, you’re, you’re trying to figure out what that looks like.

What are some steps that you started to take, whether it was through trying to connect with people or just putting your ideas down on paper about where you were going to go next and how you were going to get where you wanted to go?

[00:16:15] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it was started just reading as much as I could.

And this was even in undergrad, man. So I started working with like, even some of our fraternity brothers who played on the soccer team there in college. You know, we kind of  let’s do some visualization together and kind of lead ’em through some stuff just no idea what I’m doing, just trying to come up with this.

And I always think it’s like when you know what’s going to be, what the plan is, you don’t know what the path is. So I didn’t, I had no idea what the path was going to be, but I knew what the ultimate goal was and I was work with professional athletes, coaches and teams, helping ’em perform their best when it matters the most.

So I had no idea like what the plan was. I knew in my mind when I graduated college though, I was going to move out to Colorado and be a ski bump for a year. And the reason why I was doing that is because I love skiing and I remember seeing it like as a kid, like, wait, people do this. Like, I had no idea like what a ski bump was, but I was like, oh, people do this like, as a career.

Like I want to do that. And it, it was one of those things, the reason why I share that is because it was one of those things where it’s like, I didn’t know what the plan was. Like, I know I’m going to go to grad school, I’m going to figure out a way, and but I’m doing this, man I’m going to do, and because I wasn’t going to be 37 years old, Picking up and then moving out to Colorado.

Being a ski mom, like that just doesn’t work. You know what I mean? So it’s like you have to do it now and took that leap, skied like 97 days that year and then went to grad school at Temple University the next year. Now if you want the story behind it I got, I got lucky getting in. And the reason why I got lucky getting in, it was simply because of another hinge moment of reading about a study.

And to graduate college, you had to replicate a study. So I replicated like this study of like when runners would go in these long runs, they’d have these euphoric sensations and these runners high. And I remember like, okay, I just want to do that one. Well, when I applied to Temple University, I’m in the interview, I had no idea who I’m talking to, but he kept asking me about this study that I replicated, and he was the one who did the original research.

Wow. I had no idea. None. You know, I just found out after the interview, of course, 23 years old man. And you can tell I knew what I was doing. But it was just getting in there when I got into Temple University. I wasn’t going to blow it. I read absolutely everything that I could and I was immersed in going above and beyond everything that I was going to do.

Cause I knew how hard the path was going to go and not even kind of know what the path then went to university of Tennessee from my doctorate. And all along the way, man, just working with athletes, man.

[00:19:00] Mike Klinzing: Did you have a professor or somebody that kind of took you under their wing or somebody that you look upon as a mentor at either one of those places, either at Temple or Tennessee, somebody that you’re still in touch with that has been important in your career?

[00:19:11] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah, I had a couple man. So was Dr. Michael Sack there at Temple University and then at Temple, I mean, then at that was at Temple and then at Tennessee was Leslie Fisher and Craig Berg. I mean, they were just fantastic people, man. And Joe Whitney. I think we always remember our coaches, man, andthey were huge.

[00:19:27] Mike Klinzing: Who were the first athletes or two that you got to work with?

[00:19:29] Dr. Rob Bell: So getting like my master’s degree man was probably working like with the team. I remember working with, like with Temple Baseball there, that was even the John Cheney days when he was there, man, I remember kind of  watching some of the 5:00 AM practices but got nowhere near that team.

But it wasn’t until man, I think, University of Tennessee and then just started working with like some local pros. Some local pros then had some success. They got in some bigger tournaments and it just kind of opened up. And that’s what I always try to tell athletes and teams is no matter how bad your situation is, no matter how bleak and outcome looks, it only takes one.

It takes one shot to turn everything around, takes one meeting, a person, one coach, to turn your entire life around. That’s what you’re getting ready for. The problem is, you don’t know when that moment’s coming. That’s the importance of preparation. That’s the importance of being ready. That’s the importance of always finishing the drill and never going through the motions, because you don’t know when that opportunity’s going to happen. And, and that’s kind of how it played out in career-wise professionally.

[00:20:29] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that’s great advice for anybody in any walk of life, whether you’re talking about athletes, when you’re talking about your career, whatever that may be in the business world, you have to be prepared.

Luck tends to find people who are prepared for that luck, and if you do that, you’re going to put yourself in a much better position to be able to take advantage of those breaks and those hinge moments like you described. Tell me a little bit about your own personal mindset as you’re just getting started and trying to figure out, okay, how can I help these guys?

What is it that I’m bringing to the table that can help a professional golfer, that can help an athlete to. Be at their best, when their best is needed. What was your thought process? How were you going through and thinking about it? Obviously, you’ve got a lot of academic background, but you don’t have, when you’re first working with athletes, a little different working in the ground versus theoreticals.

Just tell me a little bit about your mindset

[00:21:22] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah, and I kind of shared like theory and practice are exactly the same, but in practice they’re different. I would probably say I was probably more confident starting off then than I am now. And I know it sounds odd, man, but it’s, no, it makes total sense.

My job was to ask like, really good questions. And I always think it’s like when, when they come up with it themselves, when they come up with the ideas themselves, that’s when they take ownership of it. I’m not a fan of like the term buy-in at all, and I want to buy an into, I want to take an ownership and I think they take ownership when it’s.

Their idea that they can be able to come up with. And I think that’s sort of like the heart of coaching as well, right? It’s like but being able to ask good questions, being able to get good feedback. I always think there’s so much power in the debrief. I think early on I could help people with their preparation and I still can, but I thought I could help them with their performance.

I still can, but I still think now I’m more impactful after the event, after they need to debrief it, after they need to look at it and see, man, where were the stumbles, what were the successes? Because now had success that this too shall pass. Like success is fleeting no matter what you win, no matter how great it is, it’s what’s next and what’s on to the next.

So you have to have a certain appreciation for just getting better. and going through those times, and I know it’s like people saying you just kind of keep going and, and it is, but I always struggle with the mountaintop moments, man. Like I wanted those good times to last a little longer. And when you find out that that leads you empty you really find out, okay, well a better foundation is needed in order for to sustain success and to be on this quest of always improving, always getting better and, and working like where the real shortcomings are going to be in life.

Those things are going to kind of trip you up. And I also look at it now as like, the better you get, the more important mental toughness is off the court than it is on the court. Everyone works extremely hard, right? And then they do the due diligence, but it’s going to be what takes place off the court.

Like how are we communicating? How are we leading, how are the relationships inside our own four walls? You know, how are the relationships like with assistant coaches? All those dynamics, I think play more into the actual game and preparation itself.

[00:24:02] Mike Klinzing: And I think you made a great point. It’s something that I know you talk about in the book, puke and Rally is a lot about that.

You have to be about the process. You have to enjoy the process. You have to take the time to soak in the process. Because as you said, when you get to that mountaintop, you give several different examples in the book of athletes who got to that proverbial mountaintop that they had been chasing. And all of a sudden they get there and they ask them.

So they look around, they say, Wow, that doesn’t feel normally, that doesn’t feel quite as good as I thought it would, or, man, this isn’t quite as meaningful as I thought it was going to be. This, here’s something that I’ve worked for for years and years and years in some cases, and now I’ve gotten there and it feels sorta empty.

And so I think one of the points that you make very well in the book is that it has to be about more than just that singular accomplishment. It has to be about the process that you go through, and then not only leading to it, but then what do you do as you said, once you’re there, what do you do after that point?

So talk a little bit about that and just sort of making sure that you embrace the process.

[00:25:14] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah, man. I mean, I think the 80 20 rule applies to this one. I think 20% of what you’re going to be doing is just, it sucks, right? That’s not a lot of fun with it. Okay. But 80% of what you should be doing should be fun.

I mean, there should be enjoyment in that. If it’s not, then how do we need to, and I there’s a lot of different layers, right? From coaches opposed to entrepreneurs, opposed to athletes. But 80%, like if 80% of your coaching isn’t like coaching, it’s on the other stuff. We have to really work on that, man.

You know what I’m saying? Because yeah, 20% is going to suck. I get it. But if you don’t, if you’re not doing the 80% that you love, it is going to drain you and suck the, the very fiber of why you coach out of you. And that requires, well, I mean, you’re going to have to delegate, man. You’re going to have to trust other people.

You’re going to have to allow them to do it and not stress out about that stuff. Right. Because I don’t know, I don’t know if you and any coaches aren’t control freaks, but like they are man. So it’s like 80% still has to be done coaching and doing what you love to do and the. I mean, it happened a couple weeks ago.

Even a meme man, a mountaintop moment, like, and I put it in the book. It’s like people spend 40 days on average climbing Mount Everest, they’re on top for minutes. Yep. Most deaths happen on the way down from Mount Everest because it’s like, Hey man, we reached it. This is it. And it’s like no matter how great it is, man, this too shall pass.

Even if it’s the best ever. This too shall pass, like the best steak you’ve ever had in your life. And this is so amazing. My problem was, is I always wanted them to last a little bit longer, but since the good times could not last, it also means that the bad times can’t last either, no matter how bad it is that we’re going through and what we will see only on the reflection piece, right?

Because time plus perspective is what gives you significance of event. Only with that. Can you see, man, that there, there was just so much righteousness in you know, finding a way and going through that tough time there because and, and that’s the part that we look at. It’s like the, that’s the real fun stuff.

And so that’s where it’s always like I stress the coaches. Yes, man, make sure you are celebrating and enjoying the process along the way. Allowing them to have fun, allowing them to enjoy it. You know, I think Eric Musselman does a great job of that, right? Like, I mean, he’ll clown around and I mean, he’s a fantastic coach, man.

He’s got it down, but he understands like you have to enjoy the process. Because if the expectations rise faster than your results, man, there’s always going to be after you win, after you have a mountaintop moment, there’s always going to be somebody that says, man, that’s great, coach, what’s next? Here’s my proof.

I don’t mind if it’s okay if I like date the show. Absolutely. It’s going to ha it’s going to happen in the Super Bowl, man. Whoever wins the Super Bowl one, number one, they’re going to rank ’em in terms of, all right, where do they rank in like the best ever? And they’re going to say the same exact thing. Can they do it again?

Yep. Hey, hey man, what are the rankings for next year? Right? You want to place a bet on ’em winning for next year? Because here’s what it is. And then confetti hasn’t even been cleared from the field. So there has to be something deeper than that, than just holding up the trophy and winning it.

There has to be, and I think the more and more that you enjoy the process along the way, it takes so much pressure off of that outcome and it allows you to kind of soak in these moments, good or bad. And that’s the part where those mountaintop moments matter just what I’m all about now, because the good times can’t last.

It also means the bad times can’t last as well.

[00:29:12] Mike Klinzing: One of the things that goes along with that, I think that you talk about in the book is how easy it is to get derailed by one mistake or one setback and just say, oh man. This has really taken me off the path that I want to get to, and I think athletes sometimes allow themselves to get knocked, knocked off that path for that very reason that a, a simple mistake can, can take you out and then all of a sudden it can turn into this spiral where one thing that you’ve done your entire life, boom.

You do it want wrong once, or you have one bad experience and now you’re in like this tailspin. So talk a little bit about athletes, again, maybe not getting into specifics, but just when you work with somebody who’s had a setback, how do they come back? What do you tell them that, Hey, look, you’ve been doing this your whole life.

This one mistake shouldn’t be the thing that just completely knocks you off and knocks you off the platform. So how do you deal with an athlete who’s, who’s suffering through that or who’s facing that situation.

[00:30:12] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah, that’s a good point, man. I think we have to approach everything through the concept of like time and no matter what it is, the problem with like where we’re at now in society today, it’s like it, I mean, just the recency bias of everything that we go through and we show highlight reels of just one play.

The team lost man, but we’re showing like one play. And so the reason why I say the time is because this too shall pass. You have to realize it. Like this is just a step you do not reach. And I’ll tell my athletes this, you do not reach the highest level without having gone through the really, really difficult times.

You can’t, there’s no way you cannot fast forward that. Or those that do fast forward it, they get there, but then they’re quickly off very quickly and you never hear from again because the foundation wasn’t there. And so I’m going to use the C word here for a second, right? I’ll say, man, I haven’t worked with a pro athlete that hasn’t choked.

I’m serious, man. That hasn’t choked. I want ’em choking in practice though, because they can understand where their mind is going to go under pressure. And the part that I really share with them about, it’s like, You have to understand your identity outside of sport. You have to understand that this is just something you do.

And that when you leave it, like you have to be able to leave it. You have to be able to disengage this part of your life with the other part, especially the better that you get. Because the better you get, man, the more and more people are patting you on the back and telling you how great you are.

So I equate this and I share this with them in terms of failure and setbacks. What they never told me was that the quote, the fall down seven get up eight, right? That was really nice, right? Four, eight saying, man, just fall down. Seven, get up. Eight. It never really rang true with me because they never told me that when you fall down for the fourth and fifth time, man, that you remember the first and second and third, like you remember those.

So all the flood of emotions that come back from. Getting chewed out by a coach, striking out with the bases loaded, whatever that failure is going to be in our mind, all of those emotions start coming back because the body still remembers it, man, the body still holds that stuff in there. And so it’s like those triggers kind of that we have, and like, the reason why we need to overcome that one mistake is because it’s that one mistake that isn’t the problem.

It’s really not man. Like you have to allow yourself leeway to make mistakes. But that part’s okay. If we don’t allow ourselves anything leeway, then we have to play perfect. And let me know how that works, . So the one mistake isn’t the problem. It’s now I no longer trust it. Now. I’m no longer, I’m going to shoot now, I’m no longer going to be aggressive.

And then that becomes the problem. Now you have no longer trusted yourself or been able to kind of refocus and process that information and what’s happened. And now it leads to another mistake, and then it leads to another one. And that’s how the domino effect happens, man, where it’s not that one mistake.

So a lot of times, man, and coaches have to do this as well because we’re teaching our players, look, you have to move on from the next play. But then when it’s a time out, then we’re bringing that last play up. You know what they need to do, that’s for film time, that’s not for this.

We need to practice that part of next play mentality. And that’s the part where I just look at it, man. I always see like the one mistake, if you, the mistakes are going to happen, it’s not a problem. How do you respond after that? The best part about last dance with MJ wasn’t that he was successful all the time, but he lost.

Yep. But you, but you let me know, man, like how many times did he have like losing streaks or when they lost against Orlando, but he was back next year, man. He was back the next day and. That’s the real test of a champion man, is when you get knocked down, it’s always going to be about to come back.

Are you able to develop that next play mentality and really not let that stuff bother you? You show me somebody that can let go of mistakes, I will show you somebody that is mentally tough.

[00:34:27] Mike Klinzing: I want to ask you a current events question related to basketball, and then I’m going to go back in time and share a personal experience and just kind of get your opinions, thoughts about something that happened to me.

So I’m going to go with the current situation. So we have a guy in the NBA Ben Simmons, right, who is pretty much at this point afraid to go to the free throw line. He’s a guy who is six foot 10 and 240 pounds and just wants to sit out on the perimeter and not do anything, doesn’t take jump shots as a basketball player.

It’s clear that not only maybe at some point was there something physical going on, but there’s something going on in his mind that doesn’t allow him to perform at his highest level. Now, clearly you’re not sitting down in a room with him and talking to him and, and having a complete understanding. But a player who’s in that situation, who has the tools to be able to be successful, but for whatever reason, isn’t able to implement those tools out on the floor, the field or the court, whatever.

What advice or what, how would you attack a situation like that? What, what would you do with them? What, what are some conversations you might have? The questions you might ask them?

[00:35:46] Dr. Rob Bell: You know, it’s tough to take that and like generalize it because every situation’s going to be a little bit different.

If I was with Ben Simmons and working with Ben Simmons, the best thing would it be. If he wasn’t Ben Simmons. Right. And what I mean by that is because he can’t step out of him being himself. So he knows like that light is like always on him in terms of what he’s doing. But I mean, he’s not really doing anything that we didn’t know already before.

His biggest mistake was not owning up to it in Philly and being able to take the punches there. Yeah. And then started playing a mental health card, which, look, man, mental health is a big issue. And I’m not saying he didn’t experience it, but he played that card. Like, you try to play the system, like you try to play a man I have to pass here to go to the bathroom.

Right. He used that to the utmost where he just, I’m out. Like he didn’t stay around in practice. He went and did his own thing and I can just guarantee this, like he didn’t have anybody really speaking true to him in his life. He had all, yes men. He had all people saying, man you’re great, you do whatever you want.

He knew it and he didn’t have to own up to it. When you move on, When you quit, it makes quitting easier later on. The problems, relocation therapy is what I call it. And that rarely, it sometimes works if the, if something isn’t broke, but if it’s broke like it was, it’s going to, it’s going to show up again.

And that was the part where, look, when he had those issues in in the playoffs with the Sixers, he needed to get it addressed, then he didn’t you reap what you saw. Now the checks need to get cashed. So, I mean, that’s kind of my opinion, on it.

[00:37:28] Mike Klinzing: Got it. All right. So I’m going to give you a personal experience that happened to me.

It’s kind of interesting when I look back on it, and I’ve told this story once on the podcast. We had a guy that came on and Billy Hansen and he talked, he had written a book about his experience as a, as a college basketball, as a college basketball player. And he had some performance anxiety issues and he was kind of walking through and, and talking about his experience.

And it got me thinking about my experience, which I had never shared before on the podcast. Really hadn’t shared with too many people at all. But, so when I was a high school basketball player, I shot probably, I think 89% from the free throw line. And I just completely confident in every way, shape or form.

My freshman year when I got to college, didn’t play very much, but whatever was fine. And then when I was a sophomore, I, I became a starter and probably about two thirds of the way through that season I was shooting I think 91, 90 2%, something like that. And then we had this. Drill that we would do at the end of practice where you had to make five swishes in order to be able to leave practice.

And then you had a certain amount of time to do that. And if you didn’t do it, then you had to get up the next morning at six o’clock or something to come in and shoot extra free throws and some way, shape or form doing that particular activity. One day I just completely fell apart and collapsed as a free throw shooter.

And I think my last, whatever it was, probably the last six or seven games, I think I was oh, for 10 or oh for 12 from the free throw line guy that was Wow. Previously was 90%. And I mean, I was in practice and you know, even then I was struggling to try to get the ball to the basket. Man. I never have experienced had experienced at that point anything even remotely similar to that.

I mean, it was just I couldn’t get the ball to the basket and I would get, again, the anxiety and sort of just tense up and all these different things. And, and I can remember really kind of being completely on an island. Cause I didn’t want to admit it really to anybody. Right. And I’m sure that my coaches knew.

And in fact I had a, did a podcast with one of my assistant coaches a couple years ago and he’s like, remember when you had all those free throw problems? I’m like, yeah, probably would’ve been nice for somebody to talk to me at some point during during this whole thing. But anyway, so I finished out that sophomore year and then I came back as a junior.

And in the summer that year, I switched up my routine to try to get myself out of what I had done before. And I ended up shooting 76%, but it was still a sort of an anxiety filled 76%. And then when I was a senior, I shot 82 and it was still, all that stuff was still there in the back of my mind.

But as I was reading your book, one of the things that stuck to me is that. , even though I went through that and I experienced it, it was terrible. And there’s still times today where I can kind of think about it and get that, that feeling of like, ooh you know, that I, I can still feel that that muscle tensing up.

But for me to be able to overcome that and get back to where, like, again, and during that time when I went through it at the end of my sophomore year, I literally, I mean, I had no chance of making any shot from the free throw line. And to be able to come back as a senior and be able to get to 82%, and I did it completely on my own.

I didn’t talk to anyone about it. And I look back on it now, I’m like, man, how would it have been handled differently or what could I have done? It’s just interesting for me to think about it again, for somebody like yourself who works with athletes who maybe have experienced the yips, whether it’s in golf or whatever it might be, which is certainly how I felt at the time, but it’s just a process that I went through and I, I wonder as I look back on it, did I handle it?

The right way. Did I handle it well? Did I handle it better or worse than somebody else might have? I’m just curious to get your perspective. I know I obviously I gave you the very cliff notes version of it, but…

[00:41:32] Dr. Rob Bell: I could work with that too, you know what I mean? Because that and that just goes to show you like the power of having a skill that’s so well learned and when you try and perfect it and how that could just kind of like sit in the mind, you know what I mean?

Yes. In the angst that kind of surrounds it. And then we get stuck inside our head and when we get stuck inside our head, that’s when we’re behind enemy lines. The way that we get outside of our own head is to get it out. You have to be able to purge that stuff out. And that’s the main thing is just be able to share it and to really then if you have an expert that can really ask questions in terms of, well what is the feeling?

Like? What’s the thoughts? You know what I mean? Now you start unlocking part of that brain that, that allows it to free up because you’ve had one motor pathway for doing something your entire life. Now something got messed up with it because there was a sort of traumatic event. Right, right.

You can call it that. And you’ve have to be able to figure that one out. And the way that you do it is to be, I mean, that’s why Ben being able to get that stuff out takes away the pain, takes away the problem. I always say, ha a problem shared becomes half a problem. Because once you start to hear yourself say it, you start to then figure it out and you find a way when we keep it inside, we’re behind enemy lines and we’re packing ourself.

And, and that’s where the real battle takes place, man. And that’s the part where it’s yeah, I mean, you’ve got the routine, you got all that stuff, but a lot of those are just going to be fixes when it’s you know, really delving into, man, what’s, what’s the feeling? And what’s the feeling that you’re having when you are shooting?

Well, what’s the feeling that you want to have that that becomes a goal instead of 100% outcome and making it and missing it because then, then it’s tight, then it’s tension and it’s really tough to play that way.

[00:43:24] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And I just think back to, like I said, trying to go through and solve that thing on my own and not really talking to anybody.

Just probably more out of embarrassment than anything else. Like, how can I not do this thing that I’ve spent hours and hours and hours and hours doing and I’ve always been able to do successfully and been able to do under pressure and not ever been worried or nervous or any of that stuff. And then suddenly to have it just in an instant go away and then to kind of sit with that myself for really a couple years trying to figure it out.

Yeah. Trying to figure that thing out. It’s I think, I think coming back and shooting plus 80%, it might be one of the things I’m most proud of in my entire career. When I really look, when I really look back on it and say, man, how did I overcome that on, on my own? How was I able to get to that point where I could, where I could do that?

It’s just a, I don’t know. The mind is a, is an interesting thing, as you well know. It’s, I never would’ve before having gone through that, I never would’ve understood somebody, you think about the Steve Sax or the Chuck Knobloch block, being able to throw the ball to first base or Rick Ankile with pitching for the Cardinals and not being able to throw the ball over to plate.

I remember seeing those guys.

[00:44:39] Dr. Rob Bell: Nick Anderson for the Magic.

[00:44:41] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, against the Rockets. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean I would honestly venture to guess for anybody who remembers back to that experience I mean I think, I don’t want to say it completely ruined Nick Anderson’s career, but it for sure.

Changed the trajectory of his career. Antoine Walker was the same way with the Celtics. I mean, once he became afraid to go to the free throw line, the, his entire game changed. I mean, it just changed the trajectory of how you play and what you can do when you’re trying to just avoid going to the free throw line.

And I can relate to that. I know those last few games of my sophomore year, man, I did not want to get filed and go to that free throw line. I did not. Whereas prior to that, I was the kid running, I was running you, I was running to the ball trying to slam into people to get people to follow me. So totally different.

But yeah, Nick Anderson’s a great example of that for sure.

[00:45:33] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah. And that’s the analytical side of our mind that figures stuff out and then it’s the part that’s have to be creative and just be able to kind of be in flow and let it go and damn the outcome that’s how we kind of get to that spot.

And. That’s why I do love the free throw shooting in general because of that part. Right. It’s the only part of the game where everything slows down. Yep. Everything stops now. You have to slow your heart rate down and now it’s just on you. There’s a lot of righteousness in that there’s a lot of respect that I have for, for athletes and even mentioning Ben Simmons before, man, a lot of respect for anybody that’s going to be at that level for sure.

You know what I mean? But yeah, dealing with that, it, it really is, man, it’s so powerful because you’re taking a well learned skill and now it’s no longer well learned. Now it’s sort of foreign. And see that’s where you have to be starting to do a couple different things and switch it up and, and that’s where like right away, switching up that routine probably would’ve been like one of the first actions in that be able to switch that up because it’s going to start a new cycle. Getting too, I’m getting too geeky in this, but starting like a new neuro pathway in the mind.

[00:46:41] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I, there was no way I could not, I could not go back to the old way. The old way was so anxiety inducing that I had to, I had to change it. I changed how I brought the ball from, dribbling it in my routine to where I shot it.

And it was just a whole series of things that, and like I said, I didn’t have anybody walking me through the steps. I just was trying to 19 year old kid, 20 year old kid, trying to figure it out. How do I get back to where I was? And I never got back to, I never got back to where I was a hundred percent completely.

But it, it’s just, it’s interesting thinking about how your mind works and how important it is in performance. And I think that speaks to the value of what guys like you do to be able to help somebody, especially at the highest levels where. The pressure is the highest when you’re talking about doing something for a living, to be able to unlock and as you said, off the top, to be able to ask the right questions to get guys thinking in the right way.

To me, it’s just in invaluable the tools that you can provide to an athlete. I’m sure that you’ve seen it and I’m sure that clients that you’ve worked with have come back to you and said, Hey, man, like the things that you’re working with me on have made all the difference. Sure. Can you share a story maybe that an athlete gave to you without, without naming names, just somebody who maybe came back to you and just how that made you feel the impact that you were able to have on them.

[00:48:15] Dr. Rob Bell: I mean, because I was the athlete that fought too much and I was like, the Sheldon from Big Bang Theory I would overanalyze stuff, man. Overanalyze it, and I was also an all or nothing athlete like I was. If I was good, I was good. If I was bad, I was, I was horrible. Right? Because the one mistake would then lead to another, and it was just Right.

It was a downside. So like to have athletes have success man, it really does, man. It brings me so much joy. It’s better being a coach and watching their success because then hearing about it and being able to share it with them it’s just so special. Man. It really is.

It’s the best part about what I do.

[00:48:58] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. That’s powerful stuff. Talk a little bit about your journey to becoming an author. Go back to writing your first book and did you know you had a book in you? Was it something that you sort of came to by accident? Was it a plan? Just tell me a little bit about the process.

[00:49:14] Dr. Rob Bell: All right, so let me start with this. About how bad of a writer I was. Okay. Like I said, from the very beginning, never studied all in high school, got to college. Now I had to study. No idea about that. Right? Like no idea about how to do it, but now you had to. And you know, because in high school I got straight B’s, but I was like, why, why work really hard and try and get a’s when I can just get B’s and not do anything?

Well, I didn’t know. And so this is how bad I was. I get to college and remember like when they’d have the writing test, you’d have the writing test before school would start. Are you going to be in English 1 0 1 or English 2 0 1? Right, right. And this is before even like I didn’t take you know, advanced placement in English.

Advanced placement English. I didn’t take that. So like you do the test and I did the test. This is how bad I was coach. I was an English oh one oh . Like I wasn’t even in the class where you got a credit man, you had to take it in order to get into 101. Right. I told my daughter that the other day. She was just laughing hysterically,

I said, yeah man. But you know, there’s eight books right there, so it’s like horrible writer. I only became a good writer because of going through the thesis and then going through the dissertation and you have to make it shorter and you have to, I mean, there’s no, you have to make that one perfect.

And I knew then coming out, one, I love writing because it’s then my way, same thing when I was talking about getting outside my own head. Writing for me became a way to get outside my own head. It’s put these I ideas down and create something and be able to help somebody else out with it. So, I knew that I had something to say and I knew look like the hinge is, I mean, none of, and anything I’m saying isn’t, like, hasn’t been said before, but I was like, can there be a better way to say it?

And how do we take examples from other people and be able to put this in there and, and how do we keep this simple? That’s basically how the books write and the process. I wish I could really say I was good at it. I’m not good at it. The process for me writing the book is one hour every day, one hour every single day.

And then you’re going to have a book that gets done. Now for this one minute, it turned in like a couple hours a day. Just because, my next book was not coming together. It just was not fitting. And then I like to do tough stuff, man. I like to get out there in, in world and live life because that’s, that’s fodder for the book, man.

And we’re always going to learn that stuff. I mean, We life goes so damn fast man, that you for not sucking the nectar out of life and doing everything that we can to like maximize the enjoyment it’s going to pass us by. So whatever it is that we want to do, man, you have to be able to do it because it’s not going to wait for you.

You want to go live out in Colorado, man, do it. If you want that vacation with the family, better put it on the plan and go do it because the not going to be a convenient time for anything. And so I will sign up for these races that force me in order to train and to put myself out there because I need to learn more about myself and, and what it is that you know, who am I going to be able to help in this race, who put me in a situation that I can be able to help somebody.

And that only happens in, in life and, and what the race is going to be. So that’s sort of the process, man, of like writing. But I always think I got something to say and excited about the next book as well, man. Cause I really think this one is just the avenue towards how we can really improve our mental game.

[00:52:40] Mike Klinzing: All right, puke and rally. Tell me about the title one. It obviously is something that grabs you. It’s not a word puke that you typically see in the title of a book. So as you were going through and trying to come up with, what’s the title going to be, what were some of the alternatives or was it always just puke and rally right from the very beginning?

Because that was sort of the whole thing that it was based on?

[00:53:03] Dr. Rob Bell: It was brother, it was I wanted puke and rally to be a nice title. I didn’t want it to be a scarlet letter that would wear around and all my ultramarathons man. I just could not get like the, the sodium electrolyte balance. And I really struggled with heat and I can tell the whole story if you want, about how puke and rally came to be if you want.

Yeah, absolutely. Please. Yeah, there was a 50 K race and it was in the mountains and there was the training for it wasn’t as great. Had a little injury heading in and but no matter what, right. Lemme do the race and. You know, 32 miles like in the mountains, man, it’s not like a, a flat road marathon it’s six more miles, but that six miles right there is two hours.

It’s not running on an eight minute clip. Now if you’re a ultra elite perhaps, yeah, I mean those guys still do. But I started to have some engine failure at about mile 13 and mile 20 of this race. I started to have like some serious shutdown issues so I’m like all the self-talk you’re trying to do yourself mean nothing at these moments.

Because what fatigue makes cowards of us all, man. It’s like when you don’t, when you do get depleted there’s no motivational talk that’s really going to help it it’s just you and the decision and decisions whether to keep going or not. So I’m at mile 20 of this race, severe shutdown issues. I need to get the mile 24.

24 is when I’m going to see my family, they’re going to be there, I’m going to reset, reengage, and then eight more miles to finish this race that I need to train better for next time. I get to, this is how bad it was, man. Like, I get they climbed down after they climbed down to where I was going to be coming because there was like, so I was just walking at this point, man extreme heat, I mean high eighties, all humidity.

And when I get up to the top of this aid station where they kind of walked, this is how bad I was at that point, my kids young at the time, right? Like eight and six at the time, they walked down this hill to see me. I see ’em, they’re hiking ahead, man. I’m having to stop like every 30 yards and just sit because it just, it, it’s not good, right?

It’s not. And I get up to the top of the aid station and when I get to the top of the aid station, man, that’s when it opens up. Like I just start puking. I mean projectile vomit. My kids are kind of looking at me and like, what is going on? Right? And my wife is there. She sees my sunken in eyes and like, it’s not good.

Well, right when that happens, the sky’s open up and the sky just starts dumping. I mean dumping man. So we have to retreat to the car. Well, it was an aid station they had pulled up so they were there, retreated the car. And if you can picture it in your mind, it’s pouring down rain in the middle of the day.

I’m opening up the back door of the car, projectile, vomit, closing the door. Looking at my kids now, just crying because they have no idea what’s going on, right? None. And my wife then comes in and she says, I just, I told ’em that you’re I’m pulling you from the race. And I couldn’t argue at the point I had no recourse.

I couldn’t do anything I couldn’t argue with it in the rain. It was, gave a convenient excuse. We go back to the hotel, the cabin, well the cabin where we’re staying, where we rented for the week. I now I have like the chills dry heaves take a shower, try and pass out for a little bit, kind of wake up and I don’t know how long that was, man, maybe 30 minutes or something like that, start to kind of get my bearing a little bit.

They kind of come back because they have lunch, they all lay down because they went through traumatic event as well. Now I’m up, I start sipping on some water and then it became one of those who are you moments? And those are the moments where we really meet ourself. And one of my golfers always used to say like, we didn’t come here to paint.

And that stuck with me. I was like, man, we didn’t come here to paint like you’re going to finish this race. So I go in, I kind of shake my wife and say, we’re going back to finish this race two hours. Mind you, after this all went down, I’m back at the same spot and check back in. And they were kind of shocked that was back, right?

They were like, where’s this guy Power drop? Yeah man. It’s like, okay go ahead and end up finishing the race. And I share that one because it’s like, alright, what are we really made of? We don’t really know until those moments hit. And what I knew was, is that I was going to finish the race or I was going to die while I was out there.

There was no other option. I think if you keep it as simple as that for me, not saying it’s the best, you keep it as simple as that. You remove all the other options, the other back doors are going to be there in life because we’re going to take ’em. You were left with a singular focus and I’m the one that had to look at myself the very next day and that became sort of the impetus that no matter how bad it is, man, it’s not about the setback.

It really isn’t. Setbacks are inevitable. Every one of us pukes. What does it take to rally. What do you need to rally, have to have people around you that care about you. You have to have people around you that push you and challenge you, and you have to have opponents too, man, that test you. But that became an impetus of the book, man.

And that’s sort of like where it took off. And I have, I’ve done this race six times. I’ve still have, my goal is still a podium finish for this race. Every one of ’em, coach, every single one of ’em. I’ve puked, I’ve still puked in this race because it’s always so hot. We’re coming from the winter into its spring and for some reason it’s always in the eighties or 90 degrees, man.

And I just struggled so bad last time. I’m serious. I made it like a hundred yards from the finish before I had a light puke. But I’m going to do it, man. Every time it gets a little bit further and it’s a tough race, man, but you know, again, I’ve done a hundred miler puked in that one. It’s, it’s just about, just keep moving no matter what really, it’s really what it comes down to, man.

[00:59:05] Mike Klinzing: It’s a great story because I think it does speak to kind of what you’ve been talking about throughout our conversation tonight, which is you have this internal dialogue with yourself of who am I and what am I all about? And, and I have to go through this process in order to to prove it to myself to be at my very best.

And it speaks to understanding what the process is like. You weren’t finishing that race so that you could take a photo at the finish line and have that as a memento. Like that isn’t what that whole thing was about for you. It was about the process of going through it and the struggle, and then understanding how that was going to change you.

As a human being and what that was going to represent for who you were continuing to become. And I think that’s a powerful statement about what human growth potential is all about, right? Like you could have walked away and gone and laid down in the bed and gotten up the next day and continued on with your life, but you inside your own head had something that was driving you to, to continue to grow, to become a better person as a result of that experience.

And to me, that’s a powerful thing that I think a lot of people miss when we take the easy way out.

[01:00:36] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah. It’s and I appreciate you sharing it, man. It’s sort of like a strength and piece that I always rely on and it’s like just be mental toughness has a lot of different facets to it.

It’s not one size fits all. That’s one part of like mental toughness. People would look at it and it’s like, well that was stupid decision. . I’m not going to argue with it. Right. I’m not saying it wasn’t. But I just knew what was acceptable to me, not giving up for me. That’s a strength. I can do that. Letting go of mistakes.

Big trouble for me. Right? Well, I know people that can let go mistakes really well. So like there’s a whole lot of different areas of like being like what mental toughness is and mentally tough and you’ve have to be able to find what the strength is for you and make sure that that’s like you, you hammer that home in terms of, look, I’m really good at this.

How can I help others with this part? And how can I look at models and coaches be able to help me like with the areas that, that I’m weak at. So I always look at it in terms of like, metal toughens is not, this is what I know. Mental toughness isn’t. It’s not all or nothing, there’s so much gray in life.

It’s not just one. It’s not just Yes. Or it’s not just, no. There’s a whole lot of gray that’s going to be in life, and we have to live in that gray and be able to navigate  the sticky factor, right? The fact that this just does not feel good about what we’re doing. But just knowing that no matter what, we’re going to stick to it and be able to keep trust in that process.

Making adjustments along the way. A sailboat is off course 99% of the time, 99% of the time a sailboat is off course. They get to their destination by hacking, making zigzagging maneuvers and making adjustments along the way. And that’s what life’s about.

[01:02:22] Mike Klinzing: That’s perfect. That was the next thing you went to, because that was the exact next story that I was going to ask you to go to, was to tell the story of Diana Nyad, because I think it, her experience.

Is similar to yours in a way, in that there was an interruption and then your interruption was two hours. Her interruption was a little bit longer than that. So maybe just share with the audience that story and how it relates to what you just talked about in terms of the sailboat being off course for 99% of the trip.

[01:02:54] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah. I mean, Diana Nyad, so if anybody hasn’t read the book her book is just you know, find a way. I mean, she just no big deal, right? Just swam from Cuba to Florida Keys first person to ever do it. And I mean, you just look at that stuff. I mean, that was 54 hours of continuous swimming, you know what I mean?

And here’s the funny thing, Mike, it’s like you will still see people that discount like what she did, you know what I mean? It’s like people just can’t, they, people that like maybe it was out there on blocked that I would just couldn’t do it. There had have been something. That she cheated on. You know what I mean?

Like, even if we do something great, you’re still going to anger half the people that just have no idea. Like how people can do amazing things like that. And, and not to be believe the point man, but it’s like just coming from a, a golf tournament and the governor of Arizona was introduced and my son’s with me, everybody started booing.

You know, I didn’t know the story behind it. Everybody started booing and my son was like, I thought they just said that was the governor. I said, buddy, I said, they don’t boo nobody’s right? I said, trust me here, man. If it was nobody, they wouldn’t clap. They wouldn’t boo. You’re going to be, if you reach any level of success, you’re going to be hated by half of the people.

It doesn’t matter. They don’t even know you. That’s not the point. The point is you know those that are around you and that you can touch and make a difference in their lives. Not to have the cheers of everybody, because that ain’t going to happen. But yeah, Diana Nyad man, I mean, we just talk about I mean hours and hours and hours of training.

It took her five, I mean, it took her multiple years, 30 years, something she picked up, she didn’t pick back up until her fifties, and then was what, 64 years old when, when finished this. I mean, just amazing feat man, and just total doggish when it comes to never giving up man. And always persevere.

And that’s the stuff that I love, man, when it comes to that. And those stories are still getting written right now, man. That’s the part that like to be that consistent with your process is something else.

[01:05:03] Mike Klinzing: Tell me a little bit about the difference between working with a golfer, a football player, somebody from a different sport.

What are some things that are sort of universal that you talk with athletes about or questions that are universal and then maybe something that’s sports specific.

[01:05:22] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah, so like the mental skills are what are universal. So like, and I kind of put it up always. I think there’s a hierarchy of mental toughness.

Number one is like, you have to have the motivation, like your why, right? How bad do you want it? That drive, that part. And that’s usually where most mental coaching, like stops is that piece, right? Like do whatever it takes sort of thing. And it’s true. That has to be there. It has to be something that you own and that you just don’t feel whole without it.

Like there was a scene in Rocky 2, when he’s carrying the buckets, right? Like he’s not fighting, he’s carrying the buckets, just working in the gym. And he’s like, man, like why do you want to work here? Rock? Like you just fought for a world championship. Why do you want to work here? And he said, I just need to be around it.

Yep. And, and you just have to be around it. And so when it’s part of like your fabric of what you’re going to do, the motivation piece takes care of itself. From that you have confidence. And confidence. People would think it’s the most important. I’m not disagreeing, I do think it is, but on the hierarchy of mental toughness, the reason why it’s next is because, look, if you weren’t confident, you wouldn’t try anything, right?

So the confidence is there and it’s letting people know that the confidence is there. You just have to be able to remove the barriers that of what you’re telling yourself on a daily basis from that. So confidence is king, no doubt. But focus is queen. And, and these are all like, these skills are universal.

No matter the sport or context, focus is queen. So in the game of chess, The way that the game is lost is through confidence through the king. You, you just kill the king in chess. The game’s over. When you lose confidence, it’s tough to bring that back. It really is. So, well, the way though that we get confident is through our focus.

Not too many times are we actually playing the game thinking about, oh, I’m really confident. We don’t really think that way. We think about making the next shot. We think about making the next play. We think about how good we’re feeling and how much fun we’re having, right? It’s focus. When we get off, where’s our focus go?

Not making a mistake. Focus goes on, right? Getting internal, right, not wanting to go to the line. And now our focus has been interrupted. So I say confidence is king, focus is queen. That’s how the game is. One is what we’re focused on. What are the things that we’re saying to ourself? What’s our body language?

And are we embracing like that moment? Are we getting excited? And then the last one is refocus. How well are we letting go of mistakes moving on and really forgetting it, totally forgetting it from shot to shot, play to play, game to game, season to season, being able to move on. So those are the skills that I think are ubiquitous and every single sport, it’s just the context that changes and the arousal level you know, whether it’s going to be football or whether it’s going to be you know, basketball or golf or tennis.

Like all those contexts will change, but the base of all the mental skills are the same.

[01:08:23] Mike Klinzing: I think when you’re start talking about what are things that are all encompassing that go across all sports, I think you answered that really, really well and I think made it clear for people out there kind of where.

Mental toughness falls, as you’ve said numerous times. I think sometimes we throw it all into one category and there’s a whole wide variety of different things that encompass what it means to be mentally tough. And some people are better at one aspect of it maybe than another. All right. I want to ask you final two part question.

So part one is when you look ahead over the next year or two and you think about where you’re at in your career, what you’re doing, who you’re working with, the next book idea, whatever it might be, what are some of your biggest challenges or what’s your biggest challenge going forward over the next year or two?

And then second part of the question is, when you think about what you get to do every day, what brings you the most joy in what you get to do? So your biggest challenge and your biggest joy?

[01:09:26] Dr. Rob Bell: My biggest challenge, I mean, the next book is I can’t wait to be patient and the fastest way to get there. And that has consumed me.

Because I know it’s a good book and I know this is the avenue that we have to take, man. Because without a doubt, it’s supply and demand theory. When it comes to time. It’s the most precious resource that we have. Supply and demand. When we’re a kid, we have all the supply in the world. No demand. We think there’s demands, right?

There’s not . Alright? Only when we get later, when we realize that now the supply is limited, and now the demand is greater, that then we can appreciate the sanctity of time. You can always make more money, you can always make different friends, but you can never get this time back. And it’s kind of back to the original point I was saying, man, it’s just like, man, you have to seize the moment, seize the day.

But it’s getting a whole new appreciation for time. And when you can approach everything through that avenue of time, why am I getting stressed out about this situation here? Why am I reacting in this situation when five years from now it’s not going to be that big of a deal? Why am I getting stressed out in traffic when I’m still going to make it?

I’m not going to get so bad out of shape because, and it kind of all ties into the question, man, but it’s like, look, we, we need to approach things with a sense of urgency. We really do. There’s no easing into a street fight. You walk into a game trying to ease into a game, you’re down pretty quick.

So you have to approach everything that we’re doing with a sense of urgency. You have to be patient with the results no matter what. You have to be patient with other people. You have to accept what’s happened. And because we approach it with a sense of urgency, and this is dog mentality, right? I’m not talking about people that read the directions and expect a cake to appear or work out for a little bit and expect to like lose all this weight and all that stuff.

I’m not talking about that. I’m just talking to the dogs, talking about those that are urgent about what they do. The problem with that is now we become urgent in everything that we do and everything is not urgent. And it’s knowing when do we need to be urgent and how do we be patient? And that’s the real dichotomy, man, that if we can use time to our advantage, the stress, the anxiety, the overwhelm feeling that we feel can leave.

Because back to that look, if you can wait, then you can win. And it’s just not treating, it’s treating that which is important, very urgent, but that which is unimportant with no urgency whatsoever, because it’s not going to maximize our time. I mean, there’s tons of examples, right? Man, you get an email at nine o’clock, I have to answer this right now.

No, you don’t, you’ve made it urgent and you make it urgent. And that’s what the mind wants to do. So that’s sort of the biggest challenge, man, is just that education piece. And how do we make this into a path that all coaches and, and dogs are going to be able to use. Man is. Is that most precious resource because I just don’t think we use it the best.

And then my greatest joy. So hopefully that answers it, man. No, it does. The greatest challenge. And then the other part, what, what gives me the greatest excitement? I mean, I’m always, I always work with a team, and the team that I work with always brings me joy because  it’s the only way that I kind of stay young and in tune.

I have no idea who the artists are with like, music today. You know what I mean? I need them and I need to hear like the things that they go through. And that’s how I think that we stay young as well. And to make sure that they keep enjoying this process. And there’s no more important person in life today than a coach, more than ever.

Most important people. And sometimes these coaches are the most, I mean, the most, I’m the only person in somebody’s life. I think when we accept that responsibility and when we take that we don’t know what messages are going to stick. We don’t know when they’re really going to get this point and then apply it.

We have no idea. Right. So what we do though is I just have this belief that we plant in trees that we’re never going to see the fact of us being able to tell somebody and, and directly like, I’m really proud of you for the effort you’re putting in, and I believe in you and know you can do it. We don’t know the impact of that, but it is going to make a difference.

And that’s what I just love doing, man. I love planting trees that that I’m not going to see. Eventually I’ll see one of them and that’s that becomes, that becomes those crying moments, man, those tear moments is being able to reach people and just be able to help them. And because when you do that You help everybody else out and what Author Ashe said the most selfish thing they can do is help somebody else.

It’s so true, man. When you focus on other people it’s what really helps you out. It’s invigorates you because you can’t help people that you believe in them and then turn around and not believe in yourself. It doesn’t work. And that’s what I always look forward to, man, is working with athletes.

[01:14:34] Mike Klinzing: That’s powerful stuff. I mean, I think that it’s important for any coach, any level, any sport to keep in mind that the things that you say and the impact that you have on your athletes are things that they’re going to carry with them in some cases for the rest of your life. And that I think that we sometimes forget about it, the power that our voices carry and the things that we say carry.

And I think you did an excellent job of, of sharing that and it’s, it’s very well said. Thanks man. Before we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to share how people can find out more about you. How can they connect with you? Tell ’em where they can get puke and rally. Just tell us a little bit about how we can get connected to you.

[01:15:13] Dr. Rob Bell: Yeah, thanks man, and I appreciate you having me on man. And great questions. My website’s drrobbell.com You know, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, man, I’m always on there. You know, Puke and Rally and any of my books, man, it’s on Amazon or on the website as well. Got a newsletter, goes out every single Friday on mental toughness one way or another.

And it’s always kind of like what we get back to. And it’s where I wake up in the morning thinking about and kind of what I go to bed thinking about as well, man. So it’s just, man, how can I be able to take these and be able to help people out with them? It’s my passion and those are the best ways I think to always get a get ahold of me.

[01:15:51] Mike Klinzing: I thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to jump on with us? It’s been an absolute pleasure getting a chance to pick your brain and learn a little bit more about what you do, and I appreciate you sending me out the book. It was really well done and I’m going to have to dive into the rest of the library here over the next couple weeks because I really enjoy puking rally, so anybody who’s out there is a part of our audience, if you get a chance, please go out and pick up the book.

Please follow Rob, join up for his newsletter. And again, can’t thank you enough for taking the time. Rob, it’s been a lot of fun and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks.