JOE STASYSZYN – FOUNDER OF UNLEASHED POTENTIAL, CLINICIAN FOR USA BASKETBALL, & PLAYER DEVELOPMENT COACH – EPISODE 601

Email – jstasand1@centurylink.net

Website – unleashed717.com

Twitter – @coachs717

Joe Stasyszyn is currently the director of Unleashed Potential, a basketball skill development company, based in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.  He joined USA Basketball as a Player Development Speaker and Clinician at USAB National Academies and Regional Clinics across the U.S.  Joe was also formerly the National Director of Basketball and Youth Fitness at 24 Hour Fitness, where he managed programs in over 450 facilities nationwide. This position gave him the opportunity to work with countless elite NBA and WNBA coaches and players.  He is also a 20+ year veteran coach at the Duke University Basketball Camp where he has gotten to know and befriend the Duke coaching staff, including Assistant Coach Chris Carrawell and Head Coach Mike Krzyzewski. 

Joe began his career in sports as an assistant coach at Dickinson College and later was the head boys’ varsity coach at Carlisle High School in Pennsylvania for 10 years. 

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Have your pen and paper at the ready as you listen to this episode with Coach Joe Stasyszyn from Unleashed Potential in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

What We Discuss with Joe Stasyszyn

• His experience running te largest player development program in the country for 24 Hour Fitness
• Working with Coach Don Showalter from USA Basketball
• The good, the bad, and the ugly of player development
• Player development is about production and results
• Player development is much more than just doing drills. It’s decision-making, it’s working on the mental aspect of the game.”
• The Competitive Edge Model he uses at Unleashed Potential
• Working player development for high school teams and Mid-Penn Motion AAU
• The importance of loyalty and trust in the coaching profession
• Working with players from elementary school to high major D1
• Everything starts with footwork…”You’ve got to fight for your feet every day.”
• Teaching players to play with pace and change speeds
• Breaking down development into “micro-skills”
• Making a player “earn their shot” with off ball movement
• “Put the ball on a tray”, “elbow to eye” and “pocket area” are three shooting cues
• A great drill to help a player extend their shooting range
• Be aggressive with your dribble
• Drills to improve decision making
• Straight shooting reps on the Dr. Dish vs. shooting less reps under game like conditions
• The 1-2 step and the Hop
• Player position profiles from the International Olympic Coaches he has worked with
• His favorite one on one drill
• The continued improvement of international basketball
• Being recruited by Coach K when he was at West Point
• Wisdom from Coach K – “Leadership is the ability to change and adapt.”
• “Kids get bored. You can’t teach things the same way. You can teach the same skill, but do it in different ways.”
• Coach K’s “Standards to Live By”
• “Only let good people on your bus.”

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THANKS, JOE STASYSZYN

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TRANSCRIPT FOR JOE STASYSZYN – FOUNDER OF UNLEASHED POTENTIAL, CLINICIAN FOR USA BASKETBALL, & PLAYER DEVELOPMENT COACH – EPISODE 601

[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here with my co-host Jason Sunkle, and we are pleased tonight to welcome back to the Hoop Heads Podcast for his third appearance. Getting up into the upper echelon of guests. Joe Stasyszyn from Unleashed Potential, Joe. Welcome back!

[00:00:18] Joe Stasyszyn: Oh, thank you, Mike and Jason, and I really appreciate you guys. I’ll tell you what then. It’s been, it’s been a long couple years and so much has gone on around the world and in a sports world and basketball. And I really appreciate you guys having me on again. I have asked some great stuff I wanted to share with you guys.

[00:00:38] Mike Klinzing: We are excited to be able to have you back on and hard to believe that we are now more than three years removed from when we first got connected through Alan Stein and developed a friendship. It’s just amazing kind of where we were when we started, when we talked to you the first time and where we are, where you are, and we’re going to dive into all that.

So let’s start by just giving people who maybe haven’t listened to your other episodes. Just give us the brief minute or two run down, sort of on your bio. So people have an idea of where this, all this whole thing is coming from. And then we’ll, we’ll dive into some more specifics about your business and how you’ve grown it and what makes you guys unique?

[00:01:18] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, yeah, this all started out as a long-time high school coach here at Carlisle, PA. Coached at Carlisle with coach Dave Lebow we had Jeff Leibow come through here, who is now the assistant head assistant at UNC with Hubert Davis.

We had Billy Allen’s come through here. My son played for me here at Carlyle and played division one basketball. And now he’s you know, he pretty much runs Unleashed Potential with us here with our business. But yeah, so I got into a player development many years ago just through coaching high school.

And all that good stuff. And then, and then eventually you know, I have a long history with Coach K, which we’ll talk about later in the podcast. And this being his last year, I wanted to share some great stuff that I’ve learned from him through the years. And then as far as the, the player development stuff goes when I get out of coaching in high school I had a great opportunity.

I was able to be the national director of player development for the largest player development business in the United States. And basically I was working in every NBA & WNBA city across this country, working with the best of the best. You mentioned Alan Stein, guys that worked under me are now in the NBA in terms of player development, coaches and all those kinds of things.

And that’s a whole story in itself. Where I, I literally ran over 300 facilities. Didn’t have player development going on in every one of those facilities across the country. And that’s, that’s what I was doing for a while for a good five years. And like I said, got to work with the best of the best.

And I’ll be honest, I’ve said this before Mike and Jason. I don’t know if anybody else and I’m just, I’m just stating the reality here as been able to do or been where I’ve been across the country in such, in such a a wide range in terms of, of development and player development and those kinds of things.

So after doing that for five years actually Jayson Williams, these with ESPN was, was working very closely with me. And when we, when we, when the, the owner of, of, of the company passed away, this all went away and he went his way to ESPN. And then I came back to Carlisle and we decided my son and I decided we wanted to run our own.

Player development business here and it started, it started here, but now it’s grown internationally. And now, you know you know, I’ll talk a little about USA basketball through Coach K’s recommendation and Kevin Eastman, smaller people. And I’m working closely with Don Showalter now that that’s something a big part of what else I do now besides our Unleashed Potential business.

So it started out locally here. You know, I was nationwide, it began, it came back here locally. Now this. Pretty much nationwide and internationally with what we do. So that’s, that’s you know, that’s the, the, the, the short, long short of it, I guess you could say,

[00:04:04] Mike Klinzing: if you want to dive into Joe’s background a little bit deeper, you can go back and listen to either of his previous two episodes when he was on with us.

And you can catch those on our website hoopheadspod.com and go back and you can dig more into Joe’s backstory, just kind of how he got that stuff started. One of the things that we wanted to talk about tonight is just how the business has gone from, because look, let’s face it show. There are a lot of people out there that have hung up a player development shingle, and are running a local training business.

So how did you guys take it? And obviously you had a tremendous amount of this experiment experience, which you just mentioned, but beyond that, there’s more to it than just being a good. Basketball trainer, there’s obviously some business piece of it and all that kind of thing that goes into being able to allow your business to expand into the ways that you guys have been able to expand it.

So just talk a little bit about what’s happened maybe over the last year or so. That’s enabled you guys to continue to grow and have an impact on players in more than just the local Carlisle area.

[00:05:06] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah, that’s a great, great question. And it’s funny that you asked that because you know, when, when I speak nationally for a USA basketball and there are other basketball academies, coach academies and things like that, and coach show Walter you served me say this before I always say there’s a player development guy on every street corner or a skill guy or train or whatever you want to call it. Okay. And I’ve sent through the years, my vast experience, I’ve seen the good, the bad and the ugly. And, and I’ll be honest. I’ll tell you what really sums it all up in a couple of words.

And it’s called production and results. And you know, a lot of people can say they do this, or they do that. But at the end of the day, do you have, do you have parents come back? Do you have teams? You have coaches to come back and say to you, Hey, my kid got. Our team got better. And at the end of the day, that’s what it’s all about.

Okay. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s about making people better and, and producing results. Results do matter. I mean you know, and again, you can’t, there’s, here’s what I always say to that. There’s two people, you can’t fool, that’s NBA players and kids. So they know when your BSN, or you don’t know what you’re doing, or you don’t know what you’re talking about.

And, and really, to be honest with you, we haven’t even had to advertise. We do not do we don’t do any marketing. You don’t have to market through word of mouth. This business has grown just unbelievably to the point where you know, we’re doing stuff with the Boston Celtics we’re doing stuff with the junior Knicks.

We’re doing stuff with international groups, Canada basketball we’ve gone there. I do a camp in Italy every year, but one of the biggest camps in Italy that that I’m very fortunate to do Don Showalter has done it. Alan Stein, Steve Kerr. And I’ve been asked to do that.

I’m also working with the Olympic coaches around the world, which we’re going to talk about that a little bit too, but to answer your question we do small group training. We do large group training. We do programs, we’re starting at three on three program coming up during the season.

We’ve been doing an in-house shooting program for on the weekends for players who are currently in high school that just want to come in and work on and work on their foot work and work on our technique and get up extra shots, extra reps. They’re all different programs that we do. And to be honest with you, that one of the biggest things that separate us from other people is we’ve developed this hybrid model. I have a lot of vast experience in performance training, also through my travels around the country and working with the top performance trainers, Alan Stein, being one of them that we’ve developed a model where we put we combined performance.

With the player development and player development, and people talk about skill development and player development. The other is a difference because player development is much more than just doing drills. Okay. It’s, decision-making, it’s working on the mental aspect of the game. It’s working on the performance aspect and we’ve also developed a competitive edge model where we’ve taken the things that we’re doing to development that we’re doing and putting them in putting players into competitive situations with ball, with passing with all different aspects of basketball performance training.

So that has how this thing has really, really grown. We even had recently we have, we have high school teams that bring us in during the season and we’ll do one hour of player development slash you know, performance training with the team. And then the coaches will run their practice for another hour after.

So it used to be when we first started this and I got back from doing this nationally that it’d be a little bit seasonal. We have little slower time during the season. Now it’s as full on seven days a week, every day of the year, every season of the year, it’s just, it’s just full on. It’s just it’s just taken off tremendously.

And that’s whether we’re doing individuals, small groups, programs, teams international stuff, junior Celtics & Knicks. What have you, so that’s, that’s, what’s been going on.

[00:09:05] Mike Klinzing: All right. So staffing wise, you’re one guy and you’re trying to do all the things that you just talked about when you look at where you are, just explain to people how you manage.

The people that work for you and what that looks like in terms of your responsibility to them and then their responsibility to you. You’ve obviously already mentioned your son, but go ahead and go through the whole gamut of kind of where you are from a staffing stand.

[00:09:35] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah. So for, for our, for our business model, we have myself who’s on full-time.

My son is full time. My son actually had a, he had a great, great you know, he’s a former division one player. And again some people might say, well, I’m biased. What have you, but I’ve been everywhere and I’ve seen every. He is probably without a doubt, one of the top player development people in the country, just because he does, he knows what he’s doing.

He does such a great job of teaching the game. So he’s full time. His wife, who was a division three All-American two time division three, all American and Franklin Marshall college here in Pennsylvania. She is also pretty, yeah, you can say a full-time part of our team. And then we have we have another part-time guy.

So basically what happens is my son handles all the scheduling and he’s really good at what he does. I mean, here’s the thing we’re busy everyday. And then at night, and then at night he’s busy two or three hours at night, scheduling all of these things that we need to schedule and and ended up and ended up part-time guy.

So at times we may have two people holding down the Fort here at our own facility, and then we’ll have two of us going on and doing some training, like, like right now, coming up in the spring, one of the largest Hey, you organizations in Pennsylvania, mid Penn motion. They contract us out to do all their skill development for their teams or at UTS, we don’t pick the teams.

We don’t coach the teams. We have nothing really to do with that, but we come in, we go to a couple of their practices. They value, they value. Skill development and player development in their AAU, which is, which is fantastic. It’s unheard of today. Not a lot of AAU teams do that. So they bring us in.

So couple of us will go do those and then a couple of us will stay back and we just rotate around. And it’s really, I mean, we, we got this thing, Frank and he, my son does a great job of scheduling and you know, there’s many, many days that we’re in the gym, five to six hours and that’s including Sundays.

Also, we try to take Saturdays off when we can, but it’s really gotten to the point. And then, and then you mix in what I’m doing with USA basketball, my role there. And then you mix in I travel outside a little bit more doing those things. Am I work with the Olympic and national team coaches which we can get into, we’re going to get into a little bit, but yeah, but that’s, that’s just sort of stuff.

And then my international stuff on the side too, and just thinking and speaking for Canada basketball done there you know, there’s super clinics. They have me speak at those also.

[00:11:59] Mike Klinzing: How close are you to needing more people?

[00:12:01] Joe Stasyszyn:. We are beyond needing more people. We’re at a point now.

You know, I can’t talk a lot about right now. We’ve got some stuff in the works right now. That’s because this thing is just going to go to a whole nother level very soon. You know, and, and the hard thing is that, and I can tell you this from my work when I was national director of basketball across the country, you have to be very, very careful in terms of who you bring on because they have to have your philosophy.

They have to know what they’re doing, and be able to teach the game the way we teach the game. So it was very, very difficult just to bring somebody on. And I knew that because like I said, Ronnie, over 300 facilities, I’d literally went in and I, and I interviewed people on the floor and I’ll talk when I say this, I’m talking.

Former high major you know, cause basketball players, former NBA all-stars I can go on and on, on where I can go in and literally interview people, on the court, show me how you’re going to run a lesson, a lesson on ball handling and then, and then have an, you know a face-to-face interview and things like that.

So it’s very difficult, especially when you’re so busy to find, to be able to train people, bring them into your, into your business and feel comfortable with them upholding your name.

[00:13:18] Mike Klinzing: Do you think trust is the most important thing when you bring somebody in? And obviously there’s some technical skills and things that they have to do to be able to interact with players and all that kind of stuff.

But I would think that just bringing somebody in and knowing that you can trust them, that they’re going to show up, they’re going to do the things that they’re supposed to do, that they’re going to be diligent in what they do to me. That seems like that would probably be the most important thing you’d be looking for in a trainer.

But maybe, maybe you have a different thought.

[00:13:39] Joe Stasyszyn: No, you’re absolutely right, Mike. I mean, trust is probably one of the, one of the biggest things bringing on new people. You know, just like when I did, when I ran this whole program, nationwide was very, trust was very, very important to us trusting a person that you’re bringing on.

Not only to be a good person cause they’re representing you. Just like when you’re out. When I was a high school head. And I got this from coach Lebow. When I was with him under him, a Carlisle that one of the biggest qualities and bring on any assistant as loyalty and trust, you can teach them the X’s and O’s, you can teach them to run what you want them to run.

And at the end to coach them up. But you know, same thing goes with this business is your name, my name’s on the line, my son’s name’s on the line. You know, we have to have people that we can trust that we know are going to come in and they’re, they’re, they’re going to, they’re going to run this the way we want it run.

They’re going to teach kids the right way. Okay. And, and, and, and develop a relationship because you’re you’re working with not only kids, but parents and they have to represent you the right way and they have to know what they’re doing. You know, number one. So that’s number one.

Absolutely.

[00:14:44] Mike Klinzing: Okay. Let’s dive into some specifics of player development. I know you and I talked before the podcast a little bit about. Just looking at maybe some different player types or just if you were going to work with a kid at a certain age, and I guess I would just leave it to you as to what you feel comfortable sharing, but just to give our audience out there.

If we have coaches listening, some things that, Hey, if I want to work on developing this type of player, I’m working with a player at this particular age group or this particular skill set, what are some things that I could do to actually make the player better? And I know we’re, I know we’re audio. And Joe also did our one of our webinars.

So if you’re listening and you want to check out Joe’s competitive edge model, which he mentioned, he went through that when he did a webinar with us, which you can find on our website and who peds pod.com again. So just to the best of our ability, Joe, what we’re going to try to do is give, give coaches out there, give players out there who might be listening.

Some things that they could take away that maybe they can’t get to you in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, or Italy or wherever else you’re going to be around the world, but they can take away some of the knowledge that you have to help themselves become a better player for coaches to help their players become better.

[00:15:53] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah. That’s a great question. And I’d say here’s what, here’s what I’m going to give you a little heads up on this, how this is going to roll. So I’ve been very fortunate, especially I I’ll tell you, my phone is jumping off the hook. Matter of fact, one of my, one of my guys just today just got offered by Kansas and Texas tech in the same night.

You know, he’s out, he’s at a he’s down at the Hillcrest school, Malika Palmer he’s a 2024 kid. And, and another kid from Canada, Jacob, Docetism Canadian national team, a 2024 kid. So I’ve been working to preface this. I work with kids who are beginners working kids who are elementary, middle school, high school kids on very, very high levels that I’m talking about.

There’s numerous kids that I, that I’m working with on, on those levels. You know, and, and a lot of times I say this to people at a time, it’s like I won’t say everybody can train a kid. Who’s very talented. But to me, show me that you can take a middle school kid. Who’s a beginner and make them better.

Show me that she could take an elementary skid who just learning elementary kid. Who’s just learning to love the game and make them better to me. Then you’re doing a great job. Yeah. It’s a different, it’s a different scenario with kids that are highly touted, like the 1% or as I call them, because most of the kids are not the one percenters.

Most of the kids are the 99 percenters who aren’t at that level and know the most of the kids that you work with. But to answer your question. So here’s what, here’s what I, here’s what I do. So a couple of things working with Olympic teams from around the world and national teams is something that I do every year.

And recently I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing that again for this year and we’ll continue to do it this year is. A lot of these Olympic teams have come up with what they call player profiles, what they’re looking for in different positions, which I have found to be very, very valuable. So the interesting thing is, as I’m teaching them player development, that’s what I do through, through this program.

With the us Olympic committee, the NBA, the NCAA, we all get together, I do the player development part. So I’m teaching them player development, but I’m also learning from them and what they do because a lot of these programs do some tremendous stuff. So to answer your question, the first thing that I do okay.

Before I get into the, the different positions, in terms of the player profiles, the first thing that I would say to coaches is you want to take a kid and you want to run them through some basic. Offensive movements, whether it’s, you know footwork movements performance training movements and watch their foot work.

I am very, very big on this. I don’t care if I’m working with a beginner. I don’t care if I’m working with the kid. Who’s a one percenter. I don’t care if it’s a guy the high major kid or whatever. The, one of the first things I do is I run them through some some, some footwork drills we have some different drills that we do again, I can’t show it to you on here, but basic pivoting.

Okay. We call them box drills where you have to learn to pivot with both feet. So the first thing that you want to do with a player, in my opinion, out of, okay. Cause again, I I’ve been very fortunate to see it on all angles is to work on basic foot work and to work on front pivot and reverse pivoting, moving, moving into coming in to their shot see what their foot work looks like because at the end of the day, One of the things that really, that, that that’s really been great for us.

And our success has been built on is footwork because most coaches today, high school level, a youth level, no, one’s where even at college level, I can tell you stories all days, but all day about that, that they’re not working on footwork. And to me, footwork is so big, a big part of every aspect of basketball.

Whether it’s ball handling, you have your feet active, whether it’s shooting, whether it’s moving defensively, whether it’s just moving up and down the court. So the first thing I would do is put a piece of foot work and that’s, regardless of the level of the player, just even basic stuff, like just seeing how they run, see how they back pedal.

We have all kinds of drills that we do. You know, you have to run into the drill, you’ve got the backpedal and through the drill, you have to D slide, you have to de slide into an offense into a catch and shoot all those things. So I’ll do what I call combo drills. We’re all combined footwork movement into, into shooting and ball handling.

So I think that’s the first thing that I would do at any level.

[00:20:10] Mike Klinzing: So that allows you obviously to get a feel for where the kid’s baseline level is in terms of their ability to control their body. Right? Because if you can’t be on balance, when you’re on a basketball floor, you’re not going to be very successful at any of the skills.

All you have to do is go and watch any game. And the players who are the best players, typically are the ones that are rarely off balance. Now their body might be leaning one direction or another, but they’re able to maintain balance that all goes back to those basics of your feet and how you’re able to control your feet, how you’re able to pivot how you’re able to move.

And I think that’s a great way to a get kids started. But then I think B sometimes, and you’ve mentioned it that a lot of times it’s easy for that to be neglected almost because it’s hidden because clearly right when kid has a ball in their hands, they’re doing things they’re, they’re doing it with their hands, right.

So you’re watching their show. Most coaches are watching well, what’s their release. Like how’s their follow through. Where’s their elbow, all those kinds of things. Whereas you look down at their feet and you can be like, oh yeah, I can see where I see where the problem is. It all starts down here and it just flows.

It flows up. And I think sometimes we get so caught up in the fact that, Hey, I got to fix these things up here, but if you don’t, if you don’t build that foundation, then you’ve really got, and you’ve really got nothing. And I think one of the things that is unique about your approach, and you’ve mentioned it a couple of times, but I think it’s worth repeating here is the fact that when you’re doing things, you’re also not only working on the player’s basketball skill, but you’re also working on the player.

Athleticism. So dive into that, once you get past that initial evaluation of a player, and now you’re starting to really work with them to improve their specific skills. Again, if you want to get into the positional Olympic stuff, that’d be great. But just how do you incorporate the athletic movement piece of it into the basketball skill development?

Because I think that’s really where your secret sauce.

[00:22:09] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah. So, so what we do is what we’ll do. We’ll do movements without a ball, then we’ll do movements with a ball. Okay. So we, we run a, we run a couple of both, and I’ll be honest with you. I got a lot of this from duke being around their program for the past, over 25 years and in a sports performance people and a strength coach will Stevens and what they do down there.

So it’s been a combination of things where, like I said, we do stuff with a ball, we’ll do stuff with valuable. And one of the things that I really believe in, we talk about this all the time also is that the best players are the ones that move the best with the ball and without the ball, they’re, they’re the best players.

So that’s what we focus on. Whether  it’s a simple changing pace and movements with a ball without a ball, like literally running up down to four golf from fast, slow to stop. Okay. LARC thing, how to stop. We it’s funny. We were just working on this tonight. We went to this school group and we’re teaching them how to stop it us.

How many, how many coaches work on stopping going fast and being able to stop? I mean, there, there are things, there are basic movements that, and again, we had a middle school group and they weren’t high level. Okay. They’re just average middle school players, but teaching them how to stop and control the jump, stop and control their body.

Okay. Before stepping through and making a pass and a lot of the stuff I call, I call like micro skills, where you take a skill, you break it down into smaller parts. So we spend on to answer your question. I think we spent a lot of time doing that, whether it’s a micro skill and a movement, learning, learning how to land properly, learning how to decelerate, learning, how to accelerate or into a micro skill with a ball, learning how to fund.

You know, take taking you know, we do, we do lines rules and USA basketball, where you drop a ball, we all are use USA, national teams do this. They dribble the ball and they must jumps up in front pivot, reverse pivot boat with both feet different ways. So you just build it that way and you build it without a ball, and then you build it with a ball, you know?

And I think that is, that is the key. I mean, you could, you could stop and teach the shooting technique all you want with the upper body, but at the end of the day and I firmly believe this because of my experiences of where I’ve been and what I’ve done, that it, and again, talking about the foundation, it all starts with the feet.

What work footwork, footwork. I say this all the time, you got to fight for your feet every single day, no matter what you do, no matter what skill we’re working on, whether it’s a past stepping through whether it’s a finished jump, stopping, stepping through on a jump stop reverse pivoting, all those things.

That’s just the foundation. And I think so many coaches miss that because they’re so worried about as their Elvis, is there elbow underneath the ball on the shot? Well, that’s all well and good, but you know again, I have a lot of background performance training and the physio part of it, and I know that it all starts at the, at the, at, at the bottom.

Right? And with your, every joint at the bottom working its way up, every movement affects another movement. You know, whether you have your feet turn or your shoulders all those different things. If that makes sense…

[00:25:20] Mike Klinzing: It makes total sense I think when you were talking, one of the things that, so I coached a sixth grade girls team this winter, which was my daughter’s team and we did.

Several things throughout our practices during the season, that sort of mimics what you talked about. So one of the things that I tried to do with them is we have a tendency to, as a team to dribble and kind of keep dribbling and then just pass the ball. Why w while we’re still on the move. So I’m dribbling to the right wing and instead of stopping and pass the ball into the post or passing it to the corner or passing it back to the top, I’m just kind of running and throwing a hook pass with my feet still going.

So one of the things we really try to work on is a, you gotta jump stop, and then you gotta step through. So you can protect the ball from the defense as you’re making the past. And then also be able to put some juice on the past. I see the value of that a hundred percent. And then the other thing that I love that you said is talking about the ability to change speeds, the ability to have a change of pace, the ability to go fast and then go slow.

And what’s always struck me about that. And I’ll never forget when I learned that for the first time, but I was probably man, I was probably in high school and I had a friend who his dad had season tickets on the floor to the Cavs games at the old Richfield Coliseum. And I would get to go to a couple of games with them every season.

And I remember sitting on the floor and this is probably what I’m 15, 16 years old. And being amazed that those players, it really didn’t look like they were moving very fast. You’re watching them out there. And most of the time they’re not moving very fast. Most of the time. Completely controlled and they’re gliding to this spot or they’re sliding here.

And then there’s that boom, right? That acceleration that obviously that is at a completely different level than what most players are versus you go and watch a third grade travel basketball game. And there’s two speeds. Either. The kid is not moving the kids not moving at all, or you’re sprinting 9 million miles an hour and have no control or no idea where they’re going to go.

And the point that I guess I learned what I watched those NBA guys was that you don’t have to be moving fast all the time. What you have to do is you have to be able to understand how to control your speed and you don’t have to be the fastest person in the world. You’re good at changing speeds. Cause that change of pace, that deception is what can allow you to maybe make up for a lack of raw quickness or raw speed just because you’re good at changing speeds.

And I think when you watch a high school game along the same lines, the best players are the ones who are. Moving at a change of pace. They’re not going a million miles an hour. Whereas you see the 10th man who comes in off the bench, everybody’s like, oh, look at this guy. He hustles it. He’s always moving.

And you’re like, yeah, he’s always moving, but he has no idea where he’s going and he’s not really generating anything with that movement. Whereas a better player, you might look at it and be like, oh, he’s not moving quite as fast as this situation, but boom, he’s got that burst and that acceleration, I think that’s what sets really good players apart.

And if you’re able to train that and work with kids again, at all levels, being able to do that, I think to me, that’s tremendously valuable. And you talked a little bit about how to do it with a group of middle school kids. Let’s say you were going to work with a higher level kids. Let’s say you’re talking about a kid.

Who’s got a chance as a high school player to play at the college level. What are some things you might do with them to help them work on their change of pace?

[00:29:06] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah. That’s funny you asked that because I had a girl yesterday she’s in the middle of her high school season. She, she was just down at South Carolina, south Carolina’s all over her. She’s only a freshman year and she’s ranked like think 35th and a country for her age group. And she, I just worked with her this yesterday. She had some time off in school. This is dirty season. This just shows you what the best of the best she had practiced later that day.

But she had some time off able to get the gym with me that day. And we worked on a couple of things. We work on what are the things that I do with a hive, really high level, high level, or player like her, or some of the other people that I work with. I say, I make them earn the shot. So what I’ll do is I’ll make them make like three or four.

In a row, different types of movements in a half court, literally almost covering half the half court before I’ll allow them to catch the ball and shoot or make a move. And part of that, part of that will be like they, they, they may need to make a come off a pin down. Okay. They might go from a pin down to a coming off hard off a pin down, coming up off of put pin down really hard about making a violent cut to maybe making a basket cut into a flare.

Okay. And then I may make them, then I may give them some contact, have them come off with some contact for the ball. So what I try to do is I try a player at a higher level. I will make them what I call, earn their shot. So by making a violent cut by making a slow to fast, maybe a fast, slow cut, three or four different movements.

Before I give them the. And, and, and then possibly like you know, like I said, like, like, like guard them coming, given contact, coming off of dribble for the last movement, just to incorporate all those different movements and, and the other thing it does, it builds their shooting staff. There towards the end of the game, or I’ll make them circle a cone with their feet.

Like do a complete circle around a cone feet, take their person away and then come off off of three, a high, a high three for a shot. So there’s so many different things that I do with kids at that level. And I call those sort of like micro skills where I break it down even more for them because they’re to the point where, where they, they need that.

So that’s one of the things that I do. I’ve found that to be really, really effective for high level kids is make them make multiple movements, multiple cuts at various speeds, including contact before I allow them to shoot the ball.

[00:31:36] Mike Klinzing: How do you balance out? And I think I know the answer to this, but I’m just curious to get your take on it.

How do you balance out getting. Reps as a shooter versus having a player, earn their shot and working on the foot work. And the things that you just described, what I’m guessing is that when they’re with you, which again is a limited about a time. It’s not like you’re working 20 hours a week with a player.

So any player that’s going to become a good player is going to improve their skills. Not only are they’re going to get that from you, but you’re also going to be the they’re also going to be getting reps up on their own. So just how do you, when you’re having a conversation with a player and you’re like, okay, we’re going to work on this footwork piece of it.

And so we want you to come hard off this pin down, or we want you to work on flare cuts, or we want you to make this tight circle around the cone to be able to work on getting those chopping feet before you’re ready to take your shot. We may not get up 500 shots in this hour that you’re working with.

But you’re working on that footwork piece of it, then I’m assuming there’s a next conversation, which is, look, now you have to take these skills. And when you work on your own, you’ve got to do those same things. Just got, is that kind of the approach that you take?

[00:32:49] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah, it is. And I’ll throw this in there because almost everyone that I work with, I will start with just what I call some fine tuning.

So what I’ll do is before I get into the making of earn the shot, that’s sort of towards the end, especially when they’re, when they’re talking. Because that’s what I want them to. I want them to be able to make shots when they’re tired. So I’ll save a lot of that for the end. But what I’ll start with I have this, we caught into a shooting actually where they have, they have to come into a pocket area from different angles working on their foot work.

But before I get to that, I do a lot, what I call it shooting because one of the, one of the things I’m really, really big on and I get I’m firmly convinced us that I’ve that’s one of my specialties is shooting is putting a ball on the tray, basically the tray at the end of your shot, your hand, your hands, like a train, a ball to sit on that tray, that lines everything up.

So what I’ll do is I’ll start with some basic footwork just to tighten up their foot work. We’ll go into we’ll do some trace shooting before that, then we’ll do to Intuit shooting with. Into the pocket area with the proper footwork they’ll come in from different angles. Right. And left. Okay. Just, just to to you know, make sure their footwork is correct again, just to tune that up.

And then towards the, then towards the end, we get up the reps of the, of the earning the shots. So they’re getting a lot of reps up with the early part of it and sometimes a lot, a lot of the better players and I encouraged this, they have their own warm-up routine where they need to come in and he got to get up there with their whether it’s form shooting from the bats, get we’d like we do chase shooting like that to different things.

We get some form shooting up and then we do the basic footwork and then we sort of, we sort of like progress it or load it that way into the shooting workout. So we’re getting a ton of reps and then obviously they’re going, doing this on her own. And then, and then the other thing I do is some stationary stuff.

Okay. The stationary stuff I do is enabling them to increase their range. I got a whole system that I use where they make a couple of stationary ballhandling moves into a shot, and we keep pulling them out, pushing them out and pushing them out, pushing them out, really loading up their legs and make them set their feet.

[00:34:58] Mike Klinzing: So what does that ball handling look like? So if I’m a kid, let’s say I want to, right now I’m a, I’m a two point shooter. I’ll give you an example. My son right now, he’s in his first three years of his high school career, or I guess middle school and high school career. So as a seventh, eighth and ninth grader, he made two jump shots.

That’s it? In three and three years, he made two jump shots. So over the last year, we’ve been trying to work with them to be able to obviously step out on the floor and make some shots. And he’s made quite a few more, too many for me to count any more Joe. So that’s at least for the new site, but I hear you.

So, but now the next thing is he’s pretty solid from 12 to 16 feet, but obviously in today’s game, You gotta be able to shoot threes. So if I want to take him from being a, a pretty good shooter at 16 feet, what’s something in terms of what you just described, the stationary ball handling, and then stepping back into a shot to be able to extend his range so we can start working on his threes.

[00:35:49] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah, I got the perfect thing for you. And again, I do this with kids. Not only high level kids, kids are all up the kids at all levels. So here’s the, here’s what you do, Mike, for any kid. This is for any kid that wants to really once, once she feel they’re comfortable, you’re comfortable with their technique and are able to shoot from free.

Now, obviously I’m not doing this with eight year olds that don’t have proper techniques. So I just want to preface it with that. So, okay. So here’s what we got. We got five spots. We’ve got both corners, we’ve got both wings and we got the top. Okay. So we can start at the top. So you start right off, right of the three point line at the top, we’re going to just, we’re going to really work on being aggressive with the ball and being aggressive with.

So we’re going to pound the ball one time with our right hand. We’re in a crossover. This is in the spot right there at pound. The ball right-hand cross, right? The left go right. Immediately left the right between the legs. You’re going to hop like sort of like give a little bit of a hop, sit at your feet and then shoot the three and it’s over and over again.

So then we do it again, pound, right? Right. The left cross left the right between the legs set our feet, drop our hips, set our feet by just hopping off the ground, off the floor a little bit, set our feet, drop our hips, go right into the three point shot. So we do a bunch there. Then we go to the right wing.

Again, it start with the right hand, do the same thing on the right wing of the three point line. And then go to the corner, same thing in the corner. Okay. And then we go to the left wing, we’d set up, we start with our left hand. So we drove a once with our left hand pop left, right crossover, right. The left between the legs set, our feet, drop our hips right into the three.

We do a bunch there. Then we go to the left corner and we do the same thing with our left hand. And then what you do once you get very good at that, and you feel comfortable that you can start moving them back at the same spots, just start moving them back. So what you’re doing is. You’re having them be aggressive with the dribble.

Okay. Cause I say, I said break the floor. They gotta be breaking before sort of pointing, almost lose the ball and able be aggressive with the dribble, be aggressive with their foot work, setting her feet into the shot. If you understand what I mean, and then shooting the ball over and over and over again.

And those five spots and you can say, you can say, okay, we need to make five, five at each spot that you can say, we need to make 10 each spot before we go to the next spot. So you have five spots. You can say 10, any spot that you got 50, you’ve got 50 minutes for that draw. And let me tell you something that is a tough shot because it seems easy, but if you go really hard with the.

Yeah, you’ve got really hard for ball and you load those feet up every time. That’s a very, very challenging shot, but it’s going to increase the rain screen. It’s going to increase their confidence for three, and then you can continue to increase their rain from there on out.

[00:38:29] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. I love that. I think that we’ve done something similar to that and we’re, again, we’re doing it inside the three point line at this point where we’re getting we’ve, we’ve done it where we’ve gone three pound dribbles with whichever hand you start with, and then we’ve just gone one move.

So let’s say he goes three pound dribbles with the right hand crossover. Boom. And then start re dribbles with the left-hand pound dribble and then boom crossover. So we haven’t done, we haven’t done any of the Cabo, which is I think a really good idea to add into what we’re doing, but it’s just, it’s interesting.

Cause it’s such a process to be able to, to take what to try to work on form first to get that right, as you said, and then to be able to take that form and be able to extend the range out from a K2 play primarily inside, seeing them transfer out into, into the three point line has been it’s been interesting.

It’s been challenging. It’s been something that has been a lot of fun for me to be able to work with my son on, for sure. Just kind of getting a feel for, okay. What can we do to make this process? Work. And I think you said it best when you said, look, you got to produce results, right? Like we can, I can spend as much time in a gym as I want doing the wrong things, but you gotta find the right things and the things that translate the games, because anybody can set up a drill where you can get really good at a drill, but right.

If it doesn’t help you to improve your shooting in a game or your skills in the game, and you talked a little bit about decision-making, which I’m sure we’ll get into here in a second, but obviously that’s a big part of it because I think one of the things that is a challenge in the game of basketball today, and we’ve actually had a couple of recent podcasts guests on that have talked about this, that you have players today that are tremendously skilled, right?

Even the 12th player out of high school team compared to probably when you were coaching. The high school game, the 12th, 11th, 13th, man on your team was nowhere near as skilled as the players that we have at the back end of a bench today. And I think that what goes along with that is sometimes we’re only teaching those skills in isolation because you have so many players who are skilled and because you have so many players who are invested in their basketball career in such a way where their parents have paid a lot of money for them to go to a trainer for them to go and play a you and for them to travel and do all these different things.

And now you have this challenge of we, yeah, we got tremendously skilled players, but there’s still this level of. Yeah, you still have to have a basket by queue. You still have to have a feel for the game. You still have to be able to play the game and make decisions. So let’s talk, let’s talk a little bit about how you incorporate that.

And obviously it’s a little bit easier when you’re doing your small group stuff, because you can put them in two, on two or three on three situations and talk them through that. But let’s talk a little bit about maybe if you’re, if you’re working with a player one-on-one, I’m assuming it’s conversations and helping them and just talking, talking through it.

So maybe just give us, how do you work on player IQ? You can take it from a small group, big group, individual, however you want to approach that.

[00:41:27] Joe Stasyszyn: That’s really interesting because one of the big things that we pride ourselves in also. You know, is the decision making piece of it. So we do drills where they have to make decisions, whether I’m working with the individual, give me some examples of a couple of them there when we’re working with individuals or small groups, whatever.

That’s the big piece that the thing that I find interesting though, sometimes is everybody has their own philosophy. I get that, but you know, you, you can’t make a decision if you have no skill. And that’s one thing coach Shoalwater and I are very, we follow the USA, basketball progressions.

We feel there is a progression for skills and things like that. And I’m all for decision-making. But you know, if you can’t get the ball across half court, I don’t know how many decisions you’re going to make. What kind of decisions are you going to make? So, I mean, I’m very big on decision-making, but it depends on the level.

You mean that’s something that has to be working. But, but just to give you an example, what we do decision-maker is okay, what I’m doing is shooting workout. And I, again, I did this, I do this all the time with whatever level of kids I’m working on working with. I may have them like attack attack the wing or something like that.

Make a move. And then as, as, as they’re coming at me, they’ll see my hands up. Like, I’ll have a target. I I’ll tell them my hands are up. You have to pass me the ball. Okay. So my hands are up. They pass me the ball, they relocate. Okay. If they, if they’re attack the wing and my hands are down, then they shoot the ball.

So I’m not only having them work on a shot. We’ve gone through all the progressions of the shot work. What have you, they all, now they have to read the defense and that’s just me in that. So they have to read what I’m doing if I charge it then. So if they’re coming in and we’re making a move, if I charge it, then that’s their cue.

They got attack. That’s something I love. I tell you what it really forces kids to keep their head up, really forces kids to pay attention to what’s going on. Okay. They’re not out there running, they’re just not out there running around and just jacking shots. So that’s one way that I that’s one drill that we do that I really liked from different areas on the floor that they have to make those decisions in terms of like we’re working one-on-one and another one that we do, if we have a couple of kids, at least two kids, we’ll have them make decisions on the shot where we’ll, we’ll line up a sort of hard to describe this, but you have cones like on a bag on the wing and, and the office.

We’ll be at the one end, like be at the top of the diagonal, like going into the wing to the basket. All right. There’ll be at the top. And then the the defender will be right behind them and they all offense we’ll make a basket cut and come around the outside of the circle around the outside of the cone, like, like their, their curl and towards the top of the key with the defender, following them, the coach will pass the offense, the ball.

So they all the offense has the advantage obviously, cause defenders behind them. They got a circle around the Combs and come around for the curl. And when they catch the ball, if they feel like they’re open at the defender is still behind them. They can catch it, shoot that they feel the defender pressuring them on their hip.

They can catch pump fake crossover and pull up. So we have them make decisions, live decisions, and shooting that way too, with with a one-on-one situation like that.

[00:44:43] Mike Klinzing: It’s interesting with the shooting piece, I think you see in here, different philosophies. As I’ve again, been working with my son, you try to read and just listen to different people and kind of get their thoughts on it.

And clearly you have one way that you can become a better shooter, right? Is that to get reps up. And so if you have a Dr dish and you have a machine, that’ll get you passes and you can get lots of reps up, but in a short period of time. And yet that in a lot of ways eliminates the decision part of it.

And then you also have the idea of like you just described having a defender. So I’ve read other people that say, look doing all those, getting 500 reps of just a machine, passing it to you. Isn’t nearly as valuable as a hundred reps with a hand up. And I can see, I could see both. It’s possible. I think for both of those to be correct in that I think the more reps you get, even if they’re reps that aren’t decisions, I still think that’s valuable.

And yet I think absolutely I think there’s also tremendous value in cutting down the number of reps and doing it in a more game-like scenario. And I think what it comes down to, it’s almost like your diet, right? You have to be, you have to do everything in moderation. If it’s the only thing you’re doing is shooting out a machine.

You’re probably going to become a pretty good shooter, but you’re probably not getting to the max level that you can. And conversely, if you’re not getting a high number of reps, because you’re always doing it within the context of a drill, it’s just like, you. You can only get so many reps at a game like scenario, right?

You can get a lot more rest when you’re by yourself, in the gym, just getting things up. So I think you have to balance the two. And to me, that’s really, that’s really where it lies where the secret to being a good shooter is you have to get a lot of shots up at the basket, but you also have to do it and be in situations where there’s a defender or there’s a decision that has to be made because in a game you don’t get to just stay in and get a perfect pass coming to you every single time.

It just doesn’t work that way.

[00:46:44] Joe Stasyszyn: No, and you’re a hundred percent correct, Mike. You know what, all those things are very, very important. You know, I, I think, I think there’s a time and a place for every single one of those things. It can’t be all one and not the other. I think if you, if you, if you give a little bit of both, then you you’ve got it.

And again, I’m just speaking from experience. Cause like I always say I’ve seen it all pretty much in gun at all, and I’ve seen everybody do it and, and, and, and, and I think. And that’s why I feel I’m so fortunate. Cause I’ve taken a little bit from everybody. I’ve just been very fortunate to be able to take a little bit from this, from that person.

One big thing. I want to talk about there real quick for coaches that are out there. And, and most of the players I work with on the highest level of players down to whatever they love this. I use a lot of trigger words. You know, people always say that coaches talk too much. So you gotta, you gotta use trigger words like will shots.

I’m really big on staying in your shots. Kids will hear me say stay. Cause I really believe that you’re shooting excellence depends on whether you stay in your shot or not. A lot of kids give you happy feet. They dance around. They fall around, they do all kinds of stuff, but so I’ll scream at a kid stay when they shoot a shot, I’ll make them stay in her shot.

Or if they’re not getting the ball in the tray at the release point, I’ll say tray, I’ll tell them make violent, violent. I’ll say elbow to eye if they’re shooting the ball flat, I’ll say, oh boy. So the trigger words, once you, once you work your skills and you’re in your foot work, and then I’ll, I’ll tell you what, here’s the most under top thing that I’ve had tremendous success with is aggressive footwork.

Like the last two steps. I really believe in the inside for the one, two left. Right, right left. Even though there, there there’s, all the hop is in there. I mean, there’s chanting, there’s times you use that, but I’m really big on the last two steps have to be their fastest steps. They have to be really aggressive.

It’s almost like an airplane landing on a runway. It’s not, it’s like, it’s not like a pop-up. With defeat hitting flat. It’s like they’re blinded to the runway left, right. Or right left. But they have to be really aggressive to their, their sneakers almost squeak. That is a very, very under-taught.

But I have found a micro-skill on that. That is tremendously important for consistency in your shot, especially later in the game when kids get tired. So I just wanted to throw that in there too. Yeah. And that goes back

[00:48:59] Mike Klinzing: to, I think, when you’re thinking about the one, two step and how that works versus coaches who would like to prefer to teach the hop.

I think there’s a place for both of them. I was always as a kid, I was always somebody that shut off the one, two, and then I, when I was training kids, I did the same thing. And then we had, this is now back probably about the time you were on for the first time we had Craig Campbell on who he coaches a girl’s team at Clovis west high school out in California.

And. He’s a big proponent of the hop. And one of the things that he said to me, which I thought was interesting, that I never really had thought about. He’s like, well, why do you teach the one too? And I always said, well, a lot of the kids that I’m working with are elementary school kids or middle school kids.

And I don’t feel like they have the strength to really get the ball to the basket when they hop. And he’s like, well, maybe that’s just the way you’d like to shoot. Maybe some of the kids that you’re working with, maybe they prefer the hop and it started getting me thinking about sort of a different way to approach it.

And you kind of looking at what’s the kids’ strength and how do they do it because certainly I think players probably have a preference one way or the other, but they need to have both of those types of footwork in their bag. For sure.

[00:50:07] Joe Stasyszyn: Right. And, and let me say this to that point. If I have a kid who loves the hop, I’m not changing them.

I’m like unless I’m working with an elementary kid who just has no foot work whatsoever and they just need now, and I know you, you, you need to learn proper footwork. Yeah. If the kid says to me, coach, if I’m working to have the kid, he goes, I prefer the hop than. Great go for it. And I’ll still make sure that they have the proper foot work and all that kind of stuff.

But yeah, I don’t, I would never tell a kid okay, well I’m not going to force it down their throat, so you have to use the one to, I prefer that. And I think even the kids that do use the one to, they know that they have to use the hop in certain situations, certain situations in the game that’s, what’s going to come down to, so here again, it’s just like what you said earlier shooting off the gun, thousands of shots versus work working on.

So decision-making in some contact with your shot. It’s you, you need a little bit of both cause you use both. Right. So, I mean, that’s just one of those things where I think I agree with you on that.

[00:51:09] Mike Klinzing: It’s interesting. Just when you think about the different ways and approaches that you can have, and I think what it comes down to right, is that.

The game itself is so dynamic and there’s so many things that happen within the context of a game that you can’t possibly account for every single one in an individual skill development drill. There’s just no way that you can recreate that dynamic environment in a one on zero with a cone out there.

You just can’t replace that. And yet at the same time, I think the point that you’re making is that you have to have that basic skill, whether we’re talking about the footwork that we discussed earlier, where just I’m dribbling a ball, and I gotta be able to front pivot, I gotta be able to reverse pivot, and I gotta be able to do that without falling over.

I gotta be able to do that with outstanding up straight. I gotta be able to continue to play low. And those are all things that sure. Can you work on those in the context of a game, I guess, but you better know how to do those things. First before you start being thrown into making decisions, there’s a certain baseline of things that you just have to have.

And again, you need to rip it out because if you don’t, then when you get in the game, you’re just, you’re just not going to be at the same level as you would, if you get those as you get those reps. And so I think it’s because basketball is such a dynamic game. It makes it it’s, what’s it look, it’s, what’s so fun, right?

It’s why we love doing what you’re doing. It’s why all of us love to play the games, why we love to coach the game because there’s no right or wrong way necessarily to do it. There’s more than one way to be, right. I guess is a better way to say there’s more than one. There’s more than one way to be.

Right. And I think that’s something that sometimes. As coaches, whether they’re player development or whether we’re coaching our teams, we forget that look, there’s, there’s lots of different ways to win a game or to score on a possession or to stop another team from scoring. You can do that in a myriad of ways.

And that’s what makes the game interesting.

[00:53:03] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah. And one thing I’ll throw in and finished that up, and then I really want to give you this Olympic stuff quick to absolutely. Yeah. So when I speak to the USA basketball again, I say this all the time so people will say, well, I’m old school where I’m new school.

I hear here’s what I tell coaches all the time. W w w we’re not, we’re not old school, new school. We gotta be one school. We got to take a little bit of the old, take a little bit of know, find out what works best to make your players better. It’s all about that. The end of the day, it’s about them. It’s not how much but it’s how much you can, can teach and get an improved players and teams.

That’s what, that’s what a lot of we talk about trainers again. Let’s do a lot of trainers, miss, okay. It’s, it’s all, it’s gotta be my leg. This is the way it is, you know? No, it’s not you gotta take the best of the best from different things and, and, and, and then use that to make players better.

When it comes down to, is, are they getting better or not do results? What are the results? What are your results? If you’re not getting results, then you’re not doing something right. I mean, that’s just, that’s just the way it is. Okay. The only thing stuff. So here here’s the deal. Cause I think it’s really gonna, this is a really fascinating some coaches.

So I’ve been fortunate enough to work with a lot of different Olympic coaches and teams and national teams and stuff like that. And a couple of them, I sort of put this together from, from my work with them. They’ve come up with player profiles, what they’re looking for for their players on our national teams.

So we’re going to go through a point guard real quick. I’ll give you some stuff, shooting guard a forward and a center when they’re picking her national teams here. Here’s what they’re saying. If you want to be, if you’re a point guard, here are the things that you should be able to do. I, I, I, and again, we’re, I’m doing a lot of this.

I was doing a lot of this anyway, but it really brings it out. So let’s go with the point guard first. Okay. Obviously it says, okay, first of all, point guard possesses, excellent ball hailing passes. So, if you have someone that says, Hey, I want to be a point guard and let me qualify with this. We train kids to be basketball players, regardless of what position you play, just make you the best basketball player.

But sometimes you get a kid who’s like Hey, I, I play primarily to point, okay. So a point guard, possesses, excellent ball handling and passes skills. Obviously another thing that they really look for in point guards, this is again on most internet and a lot of international teams, the mid range game, because you hear about people talking about the NBA, otters, nobody manage game, whatever, which I think is total nonsense because there is a mid-range game.

Okay. So a point guard be able to take the ball off the dribble. Okay. Take it off. The trouble has to be a good shooter off a ball screen. That’s one thing that we do. We work with kids coming out options off of ball screens. So they’re looking for point guards that can come off a ball street ahead of the shot.

That’s something that you can incorporate into your, into your workouts. You know, what kind of shots you get out of your office, but there’s something you should be. Okay. They’re able to create for others, break down a crate for others make decisions in a full and a half court situations. So you can put them in situations where you have to make decisions work on those things be able to read and ball, squeeze, shoot off the ball screen.

We’re gonna talk about that. Being able to pass to both the perimeter work on perimeter passing and low post entries. Okay. That’s something else that they asked for point guards to be able to do. Okay. So that’s just something for point cards I thought was really interesting. So when international teams look into point guards and looking for those skills specifically, which I thought was pretty cool.

And then another one is for the shooting guard for the two guard. Okay. Need to consistently make three point shots coming off screens and spot ups. So when you’re working with somebody like that, that wants to be a two guard or shooting guard working on coming off, shooting, coming off screens, and then spotting up, obviously.

Been able to read a defensive move. Well, without the ball, that’s that earning the shot, right? There’s those drills are earning a shot and that teaching them how to move without a ball, they can violent cus changing pace that we talked about again, be able to shoot and read advantages off the ball, screen, things of that nature.

Good ball handling skills, working on her ball, handling being a secondary ball handler, being able to shoot off a transition, transition offense. We do drills where we, we, we make, we call it transition shooting actually, where you’re working on your transition of shooting for a, for a shooting guard being able to play one-on-one in isolation.

And we do a lot of one-on-one drills in isolation being able to play off of that. What’s your favorite? What’s your favorite? One-on-one. Oh, man. You asked a loaded question right there. Okay. I’ll tell you I pray a really good one. That this is one of the I guarantee you’ve never seen. Matter of fact, we did this.

I think I showed this a bit at the Hoosier clinic? I think I showed this in New York city for USA basketball too. Got a lot of good feedback. Okay. I’ll give, I’ll give you a good one here. So here, here’s what we do. So we have a all offenses on the wing. Okay. Defense defense starts underneath the basket. So the offense on the wing makes it baseline.

Okay. Defense has started in a lane line. Okay. The defense is coming up the lane line as the offensive center player up on the same side and four on the way, defense comes up the lane to the elbow in a sprint and then comes out and sets a screen on the ball. Okay. So that’s the defensive sentence screen offense is coming off the screen.

So as the offense comes off the screen, so you get a couple of actions out of a couple of different teaching actions out of this. So all fence comes off the screen, the defense rolls as the offensive Tomasa screen rolls to the basket, okay. Rolls to the basket. And then there’s a cone set out by the three-point line.

In the far end, after the defense rolls to the basket, they go a touch. The cone offense gets to the nail coming off. The screen hits the coach. That’s standing there in the same wing, where they started goes and touches. Half-court sort of God coming off the screen goes and touches. The coach throws him the ball as way back in from half court, the defense who set the screen and rolled through the basket, then continue out to the opposite three point line and touch the cone.

He comes now plays defense on the off fence. Who’s getting the ball coming from half court must go out and meet them and they play one-on-one. Yeah. That’s awesome.

[00:59:13] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. You got a lot of movement. You got a lot of things that are game-like and then you top it off with one-on-one. I want pieces of it. Yeah, exactly.

And you’re doing it in such a way where it’s almost like a transition, right. Where kids is catching the ball and boom, you got to attack in transition, which we all know, especially in today’s game, where, where do most kids catch the ball and transition? They don’t catch it where they did 20 years ago, which is a move fill in the lane and going down to try to get a layup.

No, they’re catching the ball. Outside the three point line, most likely with a player closing out on them. So the ability to attack that close out off transition is a skill that any player I don’t care, what position you play, that’s a skill you better have in your bag. If you’re going to be a good.

[00:59:56] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah, just and just think about that.

Teaching kids have two sprints of screens, teaching kids to go out and stop the ball. What they’ll do at first is they’ll go roll to the basket, the defender, they’ll go touch the count and then they’ll come back to the middle of the lane. But the teaching point is no, you go out, you meet them on their way in at the top of the key you go out and you stop the basketballs.

I mean, there’s so many vendors, so many great things loaded up into that. That that’s one of the things that we love. One of the one-on-ones that we love

[01:00:27] Mike Klinzing: Go ahead and finish up the player profiles.

[01:00:28] Joe Stasyszyn: Okay. Yeah. So so let’s go for a forward. Okay. So they’re talking about the forward being able to receive the ball and transition spot up as a trail, man, run the floor while a Posey post down a four.

I do this with post them. Sometimes have them run from half court to a block before I give them the ball must be a consistently be able to shoot the three point shot now. So working on their threes Let me see we defend her when setting screens either to be able to work on their rolling or poppy, depending on the situation an excellent offensive rebound, or you could do offensive rebounding drills with them.

So that’s the power forward. So that’s just a bunch of profile stuff, skills that are looking for in those people. And then, and then the center being able to run the four weld transition, being two people down to four, like we said being able to establish the post position five mans is the first big ceiling and paint teaching them how to seal playing a low post, the position to be able to attack the basket, create advantages for teammates, make making decisions down on the low post.

Set solid Springs working on this screens, able to roll hard creative answers himself or the team to make correct reads on outlet, passes the waves, work on that. But we do drills where you, you make an outlet pass. Did he go out and close out and then pop into a shot? So there’s different things you can do for centers.

So the thing that I thought was really cool though, like I said, they’re, they’re literally listing skillsets for PE players at each position in the international. Which I thought that that’s pretty interesting how they’re actually listing skillsets

[01:02:01] Mike Klinzing: And I’m sure you could break that down right.

Even further and show where you could take that. And you could say, okay, you mentioned micro skills before, so now you take, okay. Yeah. You want your point guard to be a good ball handler and you want them to be a good passer. And then you mentioned, okay, well what’s one kind of pass. They gotta be able to throw, right.

They gotta be able to throw an entry, passes a post. So maybe they gotta be able to throw a pocket, pass off a ball screen, or maybe they have to be able to throw a skip pass, or maybe they have to penetrate all the way to the lane and then be able to kick that pass out to the corner for three. And so you can further break that down and then not, once you start breaking that down, Then take it one step further and now like, okay, can I design a drill that helps my players to work on this particular skill that they’re going to need to fit those player profiles?

So I think it’s really interesting stuff. And I could see where, whether you’re a coach as a trainer, whether you’re a coach of a high school team or a college team, look, you have this set of things that you need for your players at that particular position to be able to do, especially if you’re a coach that runs and recruits.

If you’re a college coach, a particular, right, you have a particular style. So you’re looking for, Hey, our format has to be able to do X, Y, and Z to be able to fit into this. And so you start building out that player profile, and now, you know what you’re looking for, but you also know what you have to do at that position.

[01:03:15] Joe Stasyszyn:   Correct that what’s even, they take it one step further. Obviously you can’t get to this tonight, but they actually actually chart all these things. It’s crazy. I mean, there’s, there’s so much with the analytical game analytics game now and all that kind of stuff. There’s so much you can do with a lot of this that they, they actually chart all that out too.

But yeah, I just thought that was fascinating stuff that a lot of us are doing anyway, but they’ve actually broken it down into player profiles. And what they’re looking for on our national

[01:03:42] Mike Klinzing: Are there one or two international countries that maybe it would be surprising to somebody like me that says, Hey, this country is really, really innovative.

They’re coming up with some interesting things that maybe their talent level isn’t that high yet, but maybe from a thought process standpoint, and Alexis knows a player development standpoint countries that are doing some really interesting things that you’ve seen, maybe just one or two, and you don’t even have to get into specifics, but I’m just curious if there’s any countries out there that are.

You know, on the cusp of really coming up with some interesting things that maybe we, we will see coming forward in the international game?

[01:04:15] Joe Stasyszyn: Well, I could tell you one immediately that comes to mind and their game they’re gaining on us is Canada, Canada and again, I’ve been fortunate because I’ve been able to work with Canada basketball super clinics and been around a lot of those people, but they are I mean, besides having they’re, they’re starting to have very, they have some very, very, very good players, number one.

Okay. But they have they’ve, they’re, they’re really doing a good job of dissecting this and breaking things down. They’re they’re, they’re wanting off the top of my head. And then the other one, the other one that I see on some of the, I guess you could say the Eastern European teams like you know, like, like Latvia, for instance, last the the guy, they won a three on three gold medal this year in Tokyo and actually was sort of interesting.

I didn’t realize this until after the fact cause I, I just, I just didn’t care. But the coach is one of the guys I worked with who coached the, that actually won the the three on three of the men’s gold nettle in three, on three, this cheer or this, this Olympic. So I think a lot of those, a lot of those, and look at the guys in the NBA, Doncic and, and guys like that, where they’re coming from.

So yeah, they’re, they’re the ones that are, those countries are the ones that, that are getting it done. I mean, they’re, they’re really, they’re really gaining on us. And a lot of the NBA people will tell you that, that it’s, it’s you know, yeah, we, we still have the edge, but you know, they’re, they’re gaining, they’re gaining, they’re gaining fast.

[01:05:48] Mike Klinzing: That’s for sure. Our talent pool is so big that I think what we have to make sure we do in this country. And I think that’s what USA basketball is doing. A great job of is to make sure that we’re teaching the game, we’re maximizing the talent pool that we have developing players in the right way. And I think a lot of.

International countries right there. They’re doing things the right way. They have to be more innovative because they just don’t have the same talent pool that we have here in the United States. And I think if you could meld the talent pool that we have with all the great coaching and just all the player development, the things that you see sometimes in the international game, you put those together and that’s when you really have something special or you have a player like a Luca dachas that comes over, who has the physical tools to be a great player, and then was taught under that system and is obviously one of the, whatever, whatever you want to say, five best players in the league.

And at 22, 23 years old and who knows what, where he’s going to end up. But yeah, it’s just, it’s amazing how far the international game is coming. The think back to the 92 dream team, right? That’s the team that kind of opened up international basketball where before we’re sending college kids and nobody really thinks much of it.

Yeah. We’re, we’re winning. And then all of a sudden, boom, you lose the gold and South Korea in 1988. And suddenly it’s a crisis here for USA basketball and you send that, we send a dream team over and then yeah, we ended up crushing all those teams. But what we did was great for the game because it just opened up the world to the game of basketball and it’s, it’s made, it’s made the game better.

Again. Think back 30 years ago, how many international players were there in the NBA? Right? You had Shuras Marshall lonas came over probably, probably one of the first guys. And you know, now what I would bet there’s probably, there’s probably close to a hundred guys. I would bet if not more, that are, that are international players in the NBA.

So it’s just, it’s crazy. The way, the things of way things have turned.

[01:07:46] Joe Stasyszyn: In my work with the Celtics and stuff like that, I’ve got to work with water, front office people and their coaches and Scouts and stuff like that. And yet, let me tell you something that you know, th they’re, they’re more, not only, not only NBA in college and they’re going after these guys, I’ve already everybody’s after him and Kevin Cannon and I work with on a junior national team.

Yeah, they’re coming on. They’re coming on in a big way. And in credits of USA basketball, Coach Showalter. Now what he’s done in this time that I was locking up and getting the ground floor, I mean, through coach K, like I said, in some other people recommended me, but I got in the ground for what they’re doing now.

And my role is starting to grow with them and I’m very fortunate, but they do a tremendous job, but they’re, they’re turning this whole thing around in terms of not just being a little Olympic team. We’re coaching education, coaching, or education organization where.

Youth development organization now, national organization, those way it should be like other countries have been. So the credit credit to  Coach Showalter and USA basketball and what they’re doing

[01:08:55] Mike Klinzing: I can’t say enough about Coach Show and just what he’s done for us. Jason and I, and got an opportunity to go and work at Snow Valley in Iowa.

Just everything that that coach show has done for us and participating in every one of our round tables, just like you and man, it’s, it’s just we we’ve been blessed to be able to have a relationship with him and just USA basketball, what they’re trying to do and what they are doing. And I think we’re headed in the right direction and there’s, there’s still, there’s still work to be done.

I think there’s a lot of education, education of players, parents, coaches. And especially when you talk about what youth basketball looks like and what, what we might want it to look like in an ideal world, there’s still a lot of work to be done. But I think that the game, when we talk USA basketball and clearly coach show, we talk about the game being in good hands.

There’s no question. There’s no question about that. All right. Let’s wrap up. Let’s go into. And let’s talk about coach K wrapping up, obviously a hall of fame career at duke, and you’ve been fortunate for the last 20, some odd years to have a relationship with him. Talk a little bit about how that relationship got started.

And then I’m just going to leave the floor to you to share stories and wisdom that he’s been, you’ve been fortunate enough to glean from him over the years through your relationship.

[01:10:15] Joe Stasyszyn: Okay. Yeah, it was really surreal to me, to be honest with you. I, I was down this year. I got down beginning of the season.

They had two non-conference games back to back and I wanted to get down and see him for the last year and, and just, and just sitting there as he came out and just thinking to myself, man, I mean, how blessed I’ve been to have him as a friend and a mentor for over 25 years and I’m sitting right on the literally right behind him on the bench.

I mean, I could literally just about tap them on, but I felt like I was literally sitting in that. During the game just watching that and thinking about all that, it just, all, I had so many things come through my mind. Like back tonight, I could talk forever. I’m just going to keep it brief and just say a few things.

But they all started like when I played a Carlisle and I took a PG up in New England after high school for next year basketball and another year of schooling. And he was at west point at the time. And he was recruiting me really heavy Garvin. And Chuck Swanson was a young grad assistant. Chuck Swenson was a head coach at William and Mary that he was the head coach or assistant coach, Tommy Amaker Michigan, but he would send Chuck Swenson to all my games up in doll through doing one, played it and doing the prep school league and in recruiting me.

And I’ll never forget this. I still have a letter from Coach K from west point. You know, in, towards the end of my PG year, I get this phone call and they’re like, yeah, we’re ready for you. Come on up. Good. We’ll get this done and get your physical, and then I’ll tell you what, like, I guess, got cold feet.

I was like at that point, nobody knew who Coach K was anyway, but I was like, yeah, you know what? It’s pretty cool to play division one basketball. Then I started thinking, man is five years of service. Does that? What I really want to do that afterwards. So at the end of the day, I decided not to go.

And it’s interesting because he would have left two years after that. Cause that’s when. So I would have finished my sophomore year and that’s what he would have left to go to Duke. And I would have still been up at West Point for my last two years. And then my military service and Coach K would have been long gone.

So as it turned out, they made a work, they worked out the best for me. And then through the years, as a young coach, at Carlisle, I just maintained that contact. And I asked him one time, like way back when and say do you think I could ever work camp? And he said, yeah, I’d love to have you.

And the rest has been history. I mean, I’m in a second fraternity down there, man. I mean, there are people are lined up by the thousands, want to work at camp and it’s the same, almost the same guys every year. The word was always, you’re not gonna get into this camp to work unless somebody died or decides not to come back, they’re very picky in terms of who they brought in there, meaning they ran their camp, their camp is no joke. They ran their camp. It’s very odd telco show. It sounds very much like a snow valley. They ran their camp. Just like the random program will Coach K was all the time.

And you worked. I mean, our friends were at Carolina camp. They come over in the afternoon. We were like, what the hell are you guys doing here? They’re like, oh, we got four hours off to play golf or go swimming wherever there were campers and sudden our ass off that’s before they had air.

The campers were like, what the hell man? We’re in here busting our ass. These guys are coming over and watching us work camp. It was so crazy. But anyway, a couple of things, it was always like a. When you were at camp because he was there and he talked to us and he shared all kinds of wisdom, a couple of things I just wanted to share with the coaches that might be on here because they, again, this is it, man.

I mean, we’re not gonna ever see another one like him. And like I said, he’s been so good to me. Like he got me involved, USA basketball and you a whole host of other things. But anyway, he talks about leadership, but here’s what he says. I thought this was really interesting cause this, this is him to a T he says, leadership is the ability to change and adapt.

A lot of people in leadership haven’t changed. He’s a perfect example. And he said, he says, the best lesson is you have to change. He changed. I mean, this is a guy who never played anything but man to man defense ended up playing zone in his later years. He always had kids who went to school for four years.

Now. They’re having kids who are one and done he could have, he could have kept this old ways and said that and we’re going to keep it this way. But no he, he, he he’s living by his words. And he said that you have to change. Things are never completely fixed.

Your values can remain the same. And it says that the key thing is how do you connect your values to you change the way you change. So, and he talked about teaching collective responsibility to gain. So to me, that right there says, in a nutshell, what he’s about his leadership style, because he changed through the years.

He didn’t just run his system and say, that said, come hell or high water. This is what we’re going to do. You know, people were shocked when they first, the first time I ever saw him playing zone people were shocked when he started bringing in one and dones but he had to change the game change.

I mean, the game has changed and that’s something that I’ve taken away from him as a leader. You have it just like what we talked about earlier, Mike, you gotta do things different ways and know kids get bored. You can’t teach things the same way. You know, you could teach the same skill, but do it different ways.

You’re going to keep their attention. That’s what leadership is. And that’s what changing is. And that’s what you can still have your values and teach greatness, but this way you do it, I guess. And then a couple more things here. He has some standards to live by that, that I, that I wrote these down many, many years ago.

And I still when I’m, when I’m working with kids and teams and stuff, I tell them number one, never show weakness was his number one standard, never look tired. Number two, number three, always show a strong face. I mean, you watch him in a game at his face and gain time. He’ll you talk about the epitome of a strong face.

Look at his face upon. He shows us he shows a strong face, no excuses. And I know, I know Coach Show and I talk about this all the time that when he coached LeBron, and for the first time they, they talked about the standards, USA basketball standards, the first thing they said was no excuses.

We’re not going to have any excuses. Okay. Number five, never have a bad practice. I mean, how good is it? How great is that stuff? And then having a relentless work ethic and an unwavering fire from within me, talk about that describes him like to a T andd I know this for a fact that he’ll come home even in the last couple of years, probably even today, he’ll come home after a game, he’ll stand up for four to five in the morning, he has his own home theater.

They’ll sit in his home theater four or five in the morning, breaking down film and going over that stuff. Seven unwavering fire, relentless work ethic. And then which is built on a foundation of hard work and pride and having a sense of urgency. And I’ve talked about this with USA basketball when I speak, having a sense of urgency, not only in the coach, but in life and everything that you do, having a sense of urgency as you, as a player, as a coach, as a person there just being high, I’m telling you I got so much stuff.

I can go through this, but I just wanted to share some of that stuff with him about him, because. You know, it’s just one in a lifetime and we’re never, we’re never going to see another one like that. And you know, it’s just I’ve been very, very fortunate to be close around him for all these years and taking so much from him and what he’s done for me, I can, I can never we pay the man just how he’s treated me and what he’s taught me and how he’s really helped them, my development as a coach and as a person, I guess you could say all of that.

[01:17:44] Mike Klinzing:

And the one thing that I think stands out to me more than anything is the fact that he was adaptable. And the fact that the game certainly has changed. And if you went back and you told 1996, Mike Krzyzewski that someday he’d be Playing zone defense. He probably would have looked at you like you were crazy, right?

He would’ve looked at you like you were nuts. And yet here’s a guy who has had more success than just about anybody in the history of the game of basketball. And. He was able to learn something new, right? You can teach an old dog new tricks. And if that dog is going to be successful, you got to figure it out.

You got to adapt with the times you got to make a decision that, Hey, I can’t keep doing what I’ve always done. And it goes back to what you and I talked about earlier, that there’s more than one right way to do things. There’s more than one way that you can win a game. There’s more than one way that you can build a program.

There’s lots of multiple right ways to do things. And I think in so many cases that especially. I think when we’re younger, we tend to have more of a thought that, Hey, I know everything, I know what I’m doing and nobody could tell me otherwise. And then I think the older you get, the more you realize that, Hey, I don’t really know very much, and maybe I can learn from person X or person Y and maybe I can adjust and do something different.

You start to see opportunities out there to be able to, to grow. And, and when you do that, that puts your players, your program, whatever, in the best position to have success. I think that’s, that’s a great lesson that I don’t know that if that coach has, Shefsky wanted to teach that lesson. But I think anybody who studies his story certainly could get that lesson from it.

[01:19:41] Joe Stasyszyn: Yeah. And, and the last two things I got to share these last few days, really. But anyway, the one year, not too long ago before, COVID, we’re at a coaches meeting before camp and he always spoke to all the coaches and I’m sitting there with my USA basketball shirt on and he starts to tell a story about, I completely blindsided.

The I’m sitting there and was like this talking about camp and you know, all our guys have seen guys who’ve been there forever. So there, and he says, he looks over at me and he goes he said, and he said, he point it looks right at me. And he says, Joseph, now I want to ask you a question.

He goes, did you ever think. Back when you started working this camp over 25 years ago, that someday you’d be working with you’re, you’re teaching high school at a little classroom Carlisle high school. You were the head basketball coach. He said, did you ever think that one day you get the opportunity that you’re getting right now to work with USA basketball?

And I was like, no, coach. I said, oh, I’ll be, I’ll be quite honest with you, man. I’ve never, never in my wildest imagination that I ever did. I ever dream, I get the opportunities I have now. And then he went on to talk about, he said he said, Joe came here as a young coach. He said he wasn’t here to try and network and climb the ladder.

And like a lot of guys did that. There, a lot of guys ended up like very, very high level jobs, stuff like that. Cause that’s what they want to do. And he said you never did that. You came here and you worked hard. And he said, you worked hard where your feet were. And he said, you were disciplined and you just did a great job.

And he goes, that’s what happens when you work hard, it just made me feel really good that he really emphasized or noticed my hard work, you know? And that’s what it’s all about. And I talk about that all the time. Hard work does pay off that’s one thing I want to say. And then the last thing I’ll leave you with here he always talks about, he talked about this every single year.

He talks about only letting your people on your bus, letting good people on your bus. And if you get on someone else’s bus may show they’re good people. So he’s all, he’s always very big on loyalty, letting good people on your bus. And he was very. You know, he was very loyal to people who were loyal to him and that’s and I live by that today.

I’m really, I’m a really big believer in loyalty. And that’s why with you guys, Jason, Mike, I love camaraderie because you guys were loyal to me, man. You gave me an opportunity to be on here and I really appreciated what you guys do. And that’s why I always tell you if I can never anything I can ever do to help you guys, man, that’s

[01:22:04] Mike Klinzing: Well, absolutely Joe, that feeling is 100% mutual.

We can’t thank you enough for the support that you’ve given to our little podcast that we started back four years ago or so, and man, it’s hard to believe that we’ve been able to be connected to guys like yourself who have such a huge impact on the game. And I think that that last point you made about coach K and just the relationships and the people and getting the right people on the bus.

And I think about what you talked about earlier, when we said, Hey, what, what’s the number one thing. You want, when you bring somebody into your business or your team or whatever it is, right? You want them, you want to develop that trust. You want to have that trust that they’re going to do the right thing, that they’re going to represent themselves, and they’re going to represent you in the right way.

And I think that when you think about the Duke basketball program, you think about what Coach K has stood for over the years. I think there’s probably no better testimony to the success that he’s had, then all the people that he’s had an impact on and produced over the years. And I think that really that’s.

When you think about coaching, that’s really what it boils down to look, you’re trying to make players better. Right? I’m trying to make, I’m trying to make the game better through this little podcast, but the reality is, is ultimately we’re getting an opportunity to use the game of basketball to make better people. And when you do that and you get to do it through the game of basketball, there is nothing better than that. And again, we can’t thank you enough, Joe, for jumping on for your third try and just being a part of it. And you know, again, we feel like when I look at who’s a part of the core who peds family Joe’s decision is right at the top of that list, without question.

So again, we can’t thank you enough before we get out. Just tell people how they can connect with you, where they can find out about unleash potential, what you’re doing, follow you. And then after you do that, I’ll jump back in and wrap it up.

[01:24:03] Joe Stasyszyn: Okay. Yeah. So they want to follow us. It’s unleashed717.com.

That’s our website. I’m going to give you my email here. If anybody has any questions that they want to hit me up on anything, feel free. My email is jstasand1@comcast.net so they can they can reach me there also. Yeah, my my Twitter I’m on Twitter also. Twitter is @coachS717.

So any of those things, and again you know, any coaches I love helping out y’all can coaches. I’ll be very fortunate. I’d love to get back to the game. And Mike and Jason, I can’t. Thank you guys enough, man. You guys, you guys are the best and you guys are on my bus for sure. Any, anything, any guy you guys need at any time, feel free to let me know.

Cause I’m always here for you guys. I appreciate you guys so much,

[01:24:58] Mike Klinzing: The kind words mean a lot. Really appreciate it. And to everyone out there, thanks for sticking with us. Thanks for being a part of the Hoop Heads Podcast audience. We really are truly appreciative and we will catch you on our next episode.  Thanks!