Andrew Wingreen

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Twitter – @CoachWingreen

Andrew Wingreen is currently a volunteer assistant coach at Stetson University in Deland, Florida. Previously, Andrew was the head coach at Lancaster Bible College and an assistant at Bethel University.  Andrew also spent five seasons as an assistant coach at Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina.

Wingreen has coached at notable college basketball camps, including Kansas, Wisconsin, Duke, Marquette, Furman, and Green Bay, as well as coaching Five Star Basketball camps.

Wingreen began his collegiate coaching career as a student assistant coach at Northland International University in Dunbar, Wisconsin. He coached at Dr. Phillips High School in Florida and also served as an assistant coach at Rockford University, an NCAA DIII program in Rockford, Illinois.

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Grab your notebook before you sit down to listen to this episode with Andrew Wingreen, volunteer assistant coach at Stetson University.

What We Discuss with Andrew Wingreen

  • Getting his shot blocked by Tony Romo in a student vs. faculty game in 8th grade
  • How issues with his heart derailed his playing career and eventually led him on the path to coaching
  • The surgical mistake that resulted in him needing a pacemaker and limited his high school playing career
  • How he eventually got to play his senior year of high school
  • How his parents dealt with balancing his heart condition with his desire to play
  • The story of rooming with an assistant basketball coach on a golf team trip during his freshman year which led him becoming a student assistant coach
  • How being a student assistant gave him a wide variety of responsibilities and experiences that helped him develop as a coach
  • Learning early on he had to outwork people to succeed
  • His attempts to get a D1 GA job after graduation, but ending up volunteering at a high school in Florida
  • His one season as a volunteer assistant coach at Dr. Phillips High School in Florida
  • The reasons he prefers coaching college basketball over high school basketball
  • The importance of having a supportive spouse
  • Why he believes having mentors in all aspects of your life is important
  • Incorporating your family into your team so the time together overlaps
  • How an Apple Watch helps him to better control his time management
  • What he gained from working college camps during the summers asa young coach
  • “If you never ask, the answer will always be no.”
  • The time he observed Tubby Smith demonstrating servant leadership
  • “Act on what you know is right.”
  • Gaining experience at Bob Jones University
  • “Head coaches don’t want yes-men around them. They want like-minded individuals, but they don’t want the same people that think the same way as their assistants.”
  • “The head coaching role is 20 times more difficult than anything you’re doing as an assistant.”
  • As an assistant, be willing to innovate and challenge ideas that are going on in the program.
  • “If you make the right decisions good things happen. If you don’t make the right decision, then there’s a consequence for it.”
  • The stress of being a head coach and never being able to turn the game off
  • Why your words matter as a head coach
  • Giving players ownership of the program and the team
  • Taking a volunteer position at Stetson at this point in his career to get his foot in the door in D1
  • How being a head coach has made him a better assistant
  • Navigating the coaching profession and making career decisions
  • Taking notes on everything that he observes to help prepare for his next opportunity
  • Using drawings while journaling to help him remember things

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[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here with my co-host Jason Sunkle tonight, and we are pleased to welcome to the podcast Andrew Wingreen volunteer assistant coach at Stetson University. Andrew, welcome to the Hoop Heads Pod.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:00:15] Thanks guys. Really appreciate you having me. And looking forward to talking with you.

Mike Klinzing: [00:00:19] We are excited to learn more about what has been a very interesting journey through the game. A little unorthodox, a little different than I think a lot of the stories of coaches that have come through. So I’m anxious to be able to dig in with you and find out more about how you’ve gotten to where you are and all your interesting stops along the way, and the things that you’ve learned throughout the course of your basketball career.

So let’s start by going back in time to when you were a kid you grew up in Wisconsin. Tell us a little bit about your first experiences with basketball.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:00:50] Yeah. I grew up in Burlington, Wisconsin, which is a small town in Southeast Wisconsin. Also the same town that Tony Romo is from. So kind of a neat [00:01:00] tidbit there.

Mike Klinzing: [00:01:02] Do you do a Tony Romo impression?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:01:04] I don’t do any Tony Romo impressions, he kind of predicts the future on those broadcasts, but I do have a Tony Romo story. I was playing in a faculty student basketball game and he blocked my shot that I tried shooting at the buzzer from half court when I was in eighth grade.

Tony picked me up over his shoulder and gave me some trash talk. So that was fun. But yeah, I grew up in Wisconsin and came from a basketball family, all of my aunts and uncles coached high school basketball, college basketball. So just grew up around the game, loved playing it.

Never really had any intention of coaching as I was growing up, but I just loved playing. It was always out in the driveway. Snow rain, whatever it was just getting shots up and playing the game I loved and got really good at it. Was one of the I’d say best players in the area at my school.

But once we got to my seventh and eighth [00:02:00] grade year started having some health issues with my heart. And from then on it kind of changed the trajectory and the journey of all things basketball for me.

Mike Klinzing: [00:02:09] Was that something that you knew about prior to that they know that you had some kind of heart issue?

Or how did that, how did that get discovered or found?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:02:18] Yeah, so it was a birth defect. I had it when I was born, but we didn’t find out about it until I was four years old. Went to the doctor just for a routine checkup and they heard a little heart murmur. Which prompted them to dig in a little deeper and send me to a specialist, a cardiologist, and found out that I had a heart disease called Epstein’s anomaly, which basically is my tricuspid valve didn’t open and closed properly.

So in a easy way to understand it allowed the bad blood  to go back into my body where it shouldn’t be going and also had a hole in my heart. And so it never really affected me or bothered me. Honestly, growing up, [00:03:00] it was something we always kept an eye on and I had routine checkups, but like I said, it never really bothered me until we got to about the summer in between my seventh and eighth grade year.

Mike Klinzing: [00:03:09] And then what did that look like? How did you notice that you were having problems? You were just short of breath. Just explain what was, what the symptoms were.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:03:16] Yeah. You know, I would get really tired when I was playing sports and that summer I was playing baseball and it got to the point when I was I was like pitching or these quick movements, I would have like stealing a base or quick pitch. And it would trigger my heart into these rapid heart rates. And my heart would get up to 250 beats per minute, and it just wouldn’t come back down. So I got into the basketball season that winter and running up and down the floor would get tired really fast. And again, my heart would just get to these rapid heart rates and it actually exceeded 300 beats per minute on several occasions.

And I would be in the emergency room quite often. And there was this one week where I was in it about I think five of the seven days had to go to the emergency [00:04:00] room just so they could give me a medication that would put my heart rate back down to a reasonable rate. But at that point, my doctor was just kind of like, we can’t let this go on any further.

This is dangerous. And so we started planning, having open heart surgeries to repair my tricuspid valve.

Mike Klinzing: [00:04:18] What were your parents? What was their feeling as you were playing. I mean, obviously you’re a kid at that point. And so maybe the conversations that they were having, they weren’t necessarily sharing them with you.

But what do you remember about that time in terms of, obviously you’re a kid you love playing sports, loved playing basketball. So your inclination I’m sure is to try to figure out ways, just like any other player, ways to figure out how to be able to continue to play. But what do you remember about that time?

Maybe the discussions and the things that you’ve talked about with your mom and dad at that time?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:04:50] Yeah, honestly, I just remember being really frustrated and I was a competitor and so I wanted to play and I kinda thought it was [00:05:00] stupid.  I didn’t think my doctors knew what they were talking about.

And I did this thing where I would lay upside down and it would supposedly help my heart. You know, it slowed it down a little bit. And I was thinking, I’ll just do this and I’ll get back on the court, get back in the game. And I just kinda got frustrated and didn’t think anyone knew what they were talking about.

Obviously a very immature response looking back on it, but as I’m a parent now and I have two daughters. Man, I can’t imagine the type of conversations my parents were having behind closed doors as they were trying to plan this and the worry they had watching me play sports, just not knowing what was going to happen to their son.

But you know, I was just looking for any way to get back on the court and really kind of brush it off as not a big deal.

Mike Klinzing: [00:05:41] Yeah. Did you try to downplay it or hide it in any way?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:05:45] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely did. And I remember early on, I would try and hide it and just kind of. Get it under control myself without telling it to anybody.

But obviously as it got worse it was kind of hard to hide and I was just [00:06:00] visibly in a, you know fatigued invisibly, not well. So it got hard to hide at some point, but I did as much as I could to play it off, like it was no big deal or like I felt fine, which I would not recommend to any high school kids or any players out there who are maybe dealing with it.

Same thing just get that stuff checked out and take it seriously. Cause I think I don’t know if it would have been treated earlier if it would’ve changed anything, but it led to this Heart surgeries, which was a world of craziness. All right. I got to jump. I’m

Jason Sunkle: [00:06:32] All right. I got to jump. I’m going to jump in Mike.

Mike Klinzing: This is early. This might be a record. Andrew. Good work.

Jason Sunkle: Mike doesn’t know this about me, but my freshman year of college,  [00:06:42] I had discovered a heart murmur. Andrew. So like I didn’t have near, I didn’t have nearly. The situation that you had. But I actually found out, like I started having real bad chest pains and they went to the doctor and they’re like, Oh, it’s a heart murmur.

And I was like, they’ve [00:07:00] never detected before. So I’m 19 years old, been in perfectly good shape. I played basketball. My whole life I’ve run cross country, my whole life. They detected a heart murmur and they’re well you, you have to moderate that. I’m assuming you had to do like stress test things where you walk on the treadmills.

Did you have to yes. So they made me do this like four straight weeks. They had me show up, I’d go down to MetroHealth and Cleveland to do this thing. And, and they decided that the only the way there was nothing they needed to do, like surgically, but that I basically needed to completely cut out caffeine.

And I wasn’t allowed to have any caffeine at all. They made me cut out caffeine and of course being a college kid, I was like, screw that. Like, what the hell I’m not going to, I’m not going to cut caffeine out. Like, I think I did it for like a year and then I brought it back and as I started drink caffeine again and lo and behold, guess what happened Andrew? I started having the same exact issues. So I have been pretty much caffeine free since luckily nowhere near the level that you’ve had. But on a much smaller scale, feel your pain in the sense, you know what I mean? So [00:08:00] want to share that with you? And I don’t think Mike knew that about me.

So there you go.

Mike Klinzing: [00:08:03] I did not know that. Hey, usually I’m revealing new things about myself that Jason doesn’t know. So I got to learn something new about him.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:08:10] Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. I hope everything’s going well with you or for that right now.

Jason Sunkle:  Oh, yeah, I haven’t had any issues I don’t drink any caffeine, like, like no pop or anything.

And every once in a while, like I’ll steal a pop or something, but like nothing, like I’m drinking it like every day or anything like that. Cause I just know what’s going to happen if I do it. So I I’ve been really good. And the doctor, has never, the current one I have, has never heard my heart murmuring.

And he’s like, it says in your file, you have a heart murmur. I’m like, yeah, well, they deducted it when I was 19. And when I was 21, those are the two times they detected it. So like I said, I had to go through stress test too. So there you go. Some information. Yeah, there you go. Love it.

Mike Klinzing: [00:08:54] Love it. All right. So I have two questions related to. The situation. So the [00:09:00] first one, let’s just, let’s answer this part first and then we’ll go back to the second part. So the first part is where are you right now? Health-wise with your heart. And then once you answer that, we’ll work backwards to how the surgery impacted your ability to get back out on the floor and get back out on the, on the field and be able to participate in sports.

So first, how are you doing now? Health wise? What’s the situation?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:09:26] I feel pretty good. Obviously when I, when I exercise or when I do things, I still like, I have a pacemaker, which is part of the story, but I have a pacemaker and it kind of limits my, my maximum heart rate. So anytime I’m working out and I kind of hit that maximum heart rate I get, I get fatigued really fast and have to take a little break, but you know, I have, I feel like I have a lot of energy can always get more and obviously we’ll never probably be the.

Be able to do the same kind of things I did back then, but overall feel good able to do things with my kids and go for runs and all that. Obviously being in a stressful, [00:10:00] stressful profession able to handle that well. So I’m really thankful to God that he’s given me the health that I have.

Mike Klinzing: [00:10:06] Awesome. All right. So that is good to know. And I think that anybody who’s listening obviously would be curious about how it’s impacted your life currently. So let’s go back in time, too. That’s seventh, eighth grade period in your life. Tell us a little bit about what happens once you start to realize, Hey, this thing is serious.

You have to get the open-heart surgery. What’s the impact on your life as a high schooler? What does that look like?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:10:32] Yeah, so I I going into my freshman year now is when I had this heart surgery and my doctors wouldn’t clear me to play high school basketball yet they wanted us to get through the surgery and it was.

Plan to be pretty routine. You know, we’re going to go in, ended up going to the Mayo clinic in Minnesota, which is one of the top hospitals in the country and had some of the best heart surgeons in the country. So we went there and I was kind of going into it thinking, okay, I’m going to go through this.

I’ll be [00:11:00] back in, back in a couple months back to playing at a high level. And really wasn’t too worried about it. You know, so going into it didn’t affect me a ton other than I was maybe a little nervous, but. Went into this heart surgery. And what they’re going to do is just fix my tricuspid valve.

But during that surgery, they finished it. And my tricuspid valve wasn’t really responding as well as they wanted it to. And it just wasn’t to the point they needed it to be, to feel good about releasing me. So they, they went in for a second open heart surgery a couple of days later. And during that surgery, they decided to replace my tricuspid valve with an artificial pig valve which they do routinely on a daily basis and it was something they felt pretty good about, gave me a pretty high chance to have a full recovery.

But during that surgery, as the doctor was, as the surgeon was repairing that valve or replacing that valve, he nicked my AAV node. And the AAV node is [00:12:00] basically the, the brain of your heart, it controls all the electrical POS pulses, the nervous system that keeps your heart beating and taking on pay. So damaging that nerve is extremely dangerous and that surgery took a turn for the worse and really you know, I obviously wasn’t aware of it, but looking back and talking to the doctors and my parents, they thought they were potentially going to lose me on the table that day.

So was obviously a nerve-racking time for my parents and nerve-racking time for everyone involved, but they were able to stabilize me, replace the valve, but it, it required me to have a pacemaker implanted as well. So they went in for a third surgery to kind of fix some of the stuff and implant a pacemaker in my chest.

And I think they said going into it, there was a 0.0, zero 2% chance that I would need a pacemaker and luck has it, God had it in his sovereign plan that I would get a pacemaker. And it was a long recovery. I was in the hospital for a few weeks and was [00:13:00] finally released. And again, thinking in my mind, Hey, I’m going to get back on the court.

That’s all I all I was thinking about. I remember, I was shooting, I didn’t really have an appetite. So instead of eating my food, I would take my green beans or whatever was on my plate and I would start shooting them into the trashcan. And that was kinda my form of entertainment.

And I remember. That year, the Lakers and the timbe wolves were playing. And I was watching the, for some reason, remember watching Kevin Barnett on the Timberwolves, playing the Lakers and you know, just in my mind, having all these visions of getting back on the court, getting back to playing, and I was really excited to do that.

But as I got out and the doctor said, Hey, try walking for a few minutes at a time. And eventually gradually improve. You know, I just can never get past these milestones of like, Walking five minutes jogging for one minute and I just can never get my heart back in shape. And the damage that was done to it was just [00:14:00] too much.

And I really could never get my heart fully back to, to what it was going to be. And, and after that mentally, it kind of hit me hard.

Mike Klinzing: [00:14:10] How long would you say it took for you to come to accept the fact that you weren’t going to be able to get back out on the court and continue to play? Maybe you’ve never gotten over it, but how long did it take you as a kid to really come to, if not fully accepted, at least reach 95% understanding that, Hey, it’s just not meant to be.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:14:35] Yeah. You know, I think in my mind, I knew, like I could just tell, I wasn’t able to get back. And every time I tried to exercise and every time I tried to get in shape and I was being consistent with everything and I was doing everything they were asking and it just was not. I couldn’t get over this, this hump.

And so in my mind, I think I knew like, Hey, this is, this may not happen. This may be hard, but in my [00:15:00] heart, I was just so driven to play and I wanted to play so bad. And my sophomore year came, my doctor wouldn’t clear me to play. I was devastated. I was mad. I was, I was angry. My junior year came. Doctor would not clear me to play.

And I was, I was mad at my doctor. I was mad at my parents for listening to him. I was mad at God for giving me a at this time, I didn’t realize what he was doing in my life, but I was just mad that he gave me this disease that took away something I love. And You know but I was still driven to play.

And finally I seen it going into my senior year of high school. I begged and pleaded with the doctor. How do I get back on the court? And finally doing stress tests and all these tests, my doctor finally gave me the okay to play high school basketball my senior year, but. He said, you have to get a defibrillator and you have to take this defibrillator with you any time you’re on the floor, it needs to be right there on the bench, just in case something happens. [00:16:00] And I was like, Sign me up. How do we do that? Let’s get this done. And I think my parents were pretty nervous about that, but they also knew I loved the game and I wanted to play. So we ended up doing a fundraiser and raised money to buy a defibrillator.

And I played senior year of basketball and got to Do what I love to do that last year of high school.

Mike Klinzing:  Andrew, I want to ask you another question. Oh my God. Two questions. So did you, did you sneak, did you, were there times when you were in high school and they told you you can’t play, did you play against what they told you?

Did you go and find a spot and play?

Andrew Wingreen: You know, I, I didn’t like, I don’t remember. Cause I honestly, I was, I was scared, like I wanted to play, but it made me nervous when I would, when I would get, yeah. My heart rate up and I would start feeling because it feels like you hit a brick wall. You know, like I started feeling sick to my stomach.

I got short on breath. So there was a part of me that was like I knew it [00:17:00] wasn’t smart. And I knew my body wasn’t capable really of getting to that point. So I didn’t really sneak off and play like five on five live, but I would definitely go push myself and play in the driveway, play with friends a little three on three, and.

You know, I would do things. I would definitely push the envelope. You know, I played golf and baseball and volleyball as well, and would always be trying to push the envelope with going as far as I could.

Mike Klinzing: [00:17:25] Could you imagine, as I’m picturing this now from, and I can totally relate to you as the player wanting to do whatever you could to play, which is why I asked the question about, did you try to hide it from everybody? Because I can speak for myself and probably lots of other athletes that if you have a if you have an injury, like I was the first one to try to keep that away from people, people who might prevent me from playing, if they found out about set injury.

So I completely relate to that [00:18:00] piece of it as a player, but then I’m looking at it from the perspective of now as a parent or as a coach. And I like, I get the love that my child might have for whatever activity, whether it’s basketball or whether it’s something else. But I just can only imagine the, just how your parents must have been sitting on pins and needles in the stands watching.

I can’t even, I can’t even imagine that. Can you kind of articulate what that might’ve what, what, how, at least how you would look at it as a parent of one of your daughters was out there on the floor with the same circumstances that you experienced.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:18:37] Yeah. Well, no doubt. I have awesome parents and I’m so thankful that they made sure that everyone knew about my situation and my coaches were aware of it and that they weren’t just kind of letting me go.

Do whatever I wanted to do. I think they knew me well enough that I would try and push the envelope. And you know, I did try and brush things off. Like I’m fine. Get away from me, like leave me [00:19:00] alone. I didn’t want anyone to see that I was hurting that I was tired, but you know, I can’t imagine what they were going through because I know as a parent, when, when my daughters scrape their leg or get a bloody nose or just these little minor things that literally every kid gets, I’m like, Oh no, like, are you okay? Or what’s wrong? And I get this anxiety and this worry, and it’s something so small. So I can’t imagine if my daughters were going through something where it was life-threatening or could put them in a really bad predicament or something as serious as that, man.

I don’t know if I could handle it. And I tell people all the time, I would much rather be the person. That the problem is with the person going through the struggle, as opposed to someone who has to watch somebody go through the struggle. Because I think, I think that’s such a hard thing to do, and it takes a special person.

And like I said, my parents were with me through the whole thing and they encouraged me through the whole thing and really gave me looking back on [00:20:00] it. I was mad at them for a lot of stuff, but looking back on it, they. They walked me through and gave me all the tools I needed to get to where I am today.

So I’m so thankful for the way they handled everything and did it with, with grace and love. And they’re awesome people,

Mike Klinzing: [00:20:14] As you said, I think the fact that you at least had the illusion of control, even though you really didn’t have much control over what was going to happen, you at least had the illusion of control.

Whereas your parents sitting in the stands obviously have no control and are just having to watch and see, and again, support you in what you’re trying to do, but yet at the same time, I’m sure. Tremendously nervous. What do you remember about your coach in that instance? Because I could see where again, a coach would be kind of nervous and it adds a whole nother layer of complexity for a coach when they have a player going through that situation.

So what do you remember about your relationship with the coach and just how that, how that went down?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:20:56] You know, I remember being really grateful for it for giving because he [00:21:00] he obviously had to sign off on it as well to allow me to be part of the team with. You know, obviously he would feel responsible if he played me too long or anything like that.

So I’m very grateful that he gave me that chance. And I do remember there’s times, like I still felt, I wasn’t the same player I used to be and clearly was not the best player on the team, but I would still play maybe eight to 10 minutes a game and probably averaged around eight points a game.

So I felt like I still contributed quite a bit it was very efficient, but I always wanted more minutes. I thought I could play longer, but he was very cautious with how he played and would only play me for maybe two minutes at a time before he would pull me out. I do remember one time we played in this big, I can’t remember if it was like just a big regular season game or like a, a postseason state or playoff game or something like that.

But ee’re playing this team. And they had the six-eight kid who was really athletic. He went on to play professional basketball after college, but I remember I took a charge on this kid and I just took it [00:22:00] square in the chest. And, and obviously he probably put me about 20 feet down the court.

And I think, I remember just hearing everyone take a sigh and wonder if I was okay, but man, I got up, I have to take on that charge and just was full energy and  it felt good to get hit. I mean, it hurt a lot, but it felt good to take a hit like that in my chest where I had had these heart surgeries and I felt okay.

And it was, to me, it was kind of encouraging like, Hey, maybe this will be okay after all and I can do things again. So That’s kind of some stuff I remember from that season .

Mike Klinzing: [00:22:37] At that point, were you at all thinking that coaching could be in your future at that point, because you probably prior to all this going down, I’m sure you had aspirations of being a college basketball player.

And it’s probably at this point, despite the fact that you want it to happen? You probably were starting to see the writing on [00:23:00] the wall and it sounds like you were a kid that would want to stay involved in the game. So is this the point where coaching starts to kind of creep into your mind?

Or are you still focused on, Hey, I can, I can overcome this and maybe get an opportunity to keep playing.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:23:13] Yeah, no, I think at that point my doctor, my cardiologist made it very clear to me that I wouldn’t get cleared to play in college. So. I did start thinking about coaching and I still love the game obviously, and want it to be around the game, but I didn’t really know, like I had a lot of family members who coached, so I would always go to their games and any family get togethers.

I heard my uncles talking about the games and talking Xs and Os, and, and what to do in certain situations. So I did have a little bit of experience and some really good mentors in my life, in the coaching world, but it still wasn’t something that was just like I still wanted to compete and play.

So I actually ended up going to college and I played golf and played college golf for one [00:24:00] year. And it was actually on one of our golf trips. One of our golf trips, our head coach couldn’t come on. So. Our assistant basketball coach at the school actually took our golf team on this trip. And it was a small school.

So everyone had like it was either, I think it was two guys or four guys in a room. Two guys would each share a bed. So we kind of packed everyone in and I ended up drawing the short straw and shared a room with our assistant basketball coach. And I remember I was reading a book, the book “Wooden” by John Wooden and, and it kind of piqued his interest and he asked me about it, like, Hey, like, why are you reading that book?

And it got this conversation about Coaching. And he really encouraged me. He thought I had  had a mind for the game, just talking to me. And because of that, he actually asked me to be a student assistant. He got the head coaching job that next year, and he asked me to be his student assistant coach.

And that was kind of the start of my coaching journey at the college level.

Mike Klinzing: [00:24:58] So what did that look like [00:25:00] student assistant coach? What were some of your responsibilities? Some of the things that you did may

Andrew Wingreen: [00:25:04] I was. It was like I said, a really small school division NCC AA division two, which is, you can’t really get any lower in the college basketball, but it was just like being an assistant coach.

You know, I was the only assistant he had, the school didn’t have enough money to hire anybody. So I was his assistant. I recruited, I drove three hours to go watch games to scout because we didn’t have any video technology. You know, and by the time some of these teams got us film, it was just too late.

Like we had to prepare. So I ran was in practices, doing drills with the guys, coaching them, doing individual workouts. Really just anything and everything that an assistant coach would do. And I was really thankful for that because I wasn’t a manager.  I did a lot of manager stuff, but the guys treated me like a coach, our head coach treated me like a coach. And I [00:26:00] got that experience at a really young age as a 19 year old to really start my college coaching journey. So I’m so thankful for that opportunity.

Mike Klinzing: [00:26:12] What were some of the things that you initially loved about coaching and what was something that maybe was surprising to you about coaching that you didn’t realize?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:26:26] Yeah. I mean, I think obviously I just loved, I loved being around the guys. I loved the road trips, we took 15 passenger vans on those trips and a lot of times we would just have fun, just laughing, listening to the music, talking on those. We would be driving four hours to games like twice a week.

So just love the time with the guys and obviously. Still being able to be around competition. And I learned that coaching there’s so much behind the scenes. It’s not just a barking orders and saying, you go here, you go [00:27:00] there, dribble run faster. There’s a lot of behind the scenes work and it gave me this from a different aspect, this competitive nature, where I was like, okay,  I have to outwork people.

I have to break down film better than anybody else. I have to put together a scouting report and present it clearly with clarity. And that was a challenge for me. It was something I could compete in. And when I saw it translate to our guys and I saw them understand what I was teaching.

It gave me confidence and they respected me. And that meant so much coming from my peers, that it wasn’t just like Andrew’s just, he’s just one of us. And he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Like, they, they asked me to watch film with them. They asked me to do workouts with them and it was something that just built my confidence.

So it just made me more hungry and I loved it. I just couldn’t get enough of it. I lived and breathed basketball. I hate to say it, but my GPA in college was not very good. And a lot, a lot of that was due to doing basketball stuff, way more [00:28:00] than a schoolwork, but it just ignited a passion in me.

And it’s been with me ever since.

Mike Klinzing: [00:28:05] You had a full-time job, what are you talking about?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:28:07] Exactly. Exactly.

Mike Klinzing: [00:28:09] To be able to be. I can imagine, especially again, you were basically functioning as, I mean, you basically had two roles, not only were you a student assistant, which under ordinary circumstances, you might be considered a manager, but you were obviously the de facto assistant coach.

And so you’re really managing two jobs there. Plus you’re trying to go to school so completely understandable. And obviously from hearing your story. And from hearing you talk and just hearing you share your passion there, it’s clear that you poured yourself heart and soul into what you were doing there on the coaching side of it.

So as you got into it and you realize that, man, I love this. What did you, did you start to plan out what you thought you might want to do when you were done [00:29:00] with school? Did it become clear to you that coaching was going to be your profession?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:29:03] Definitely. I mean, I was constantly going to basketball clinics.

I was writing letters to coaches as often as I could. And that was just throughout my sophomore, junior years. And obviously by the time I became a senior it was on my heart to, I was trying to find a GA position. And that was really my goal was to be a GA at a division one school. So I wrote a letter and sent a resume to every single division one school in the country.

And I got. Probably 200 letters back all saying, thank you. But no, and I kept all those letters. I still have them somewhere to this day. And I just nowadays I don’t really care about that, but I remember back then it motivated me just to, to. You know, grind harder and really work harder, but ended up getting married second semester, my senior year and my wife was on the journey with me and we had an opportunity actually I was talking to, [00:30:00] this is kind of a neat part of my journey too, that not many people know, but I was.

I came down to Florida. I was interviewing to be a GA at University of Central Florida. One of my friends, JP Clark, who’s now with the Los Angeles Clippers. He was the director of operations at UCF and I was meeting with one of their assistant coaches to try and be a GA and kind of the irony of the story is that the head coach at the time was Donnie Jones.

Who’s currently our head coach at Stetson, and he had no idea I was interviewing for that position at the time. But some stuff happened in their program where they kind of lost their budget for having a GA and being a married guy at that time, just wasn’t going to be able to do that. So I volunteered at a high school down here in Florida for one year. And that kind of started my coaching journey, but we ended up moving back to take my first position at a division three school in Illinois.

Mike Klinzing: [00:30:55] Compare and contrast coaching high school versus coaching in [00:31:00] college. What did you like about coaching and high school?

What did you maybe not like as much about coaching in high school compared to college?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:31:07] Yeah. I loved my time there. Phillips is a very high level program. It always has been, it still is. And we had some really good players. So I enjoyed it. I enjoyed being around the guys, but I never, I just never could get this passion for high school basketball. And I don’t know what it was. I respect high school coaches so much because they deal with parents, they deal with some things that you just don’t have to deal with as a college coach. But my heart was just always, I want to coach college basketball and we had an opportunity to come back to my wife’s hometown in Rockford, Illinois to coach at Rockford University.

And so we took it and, and move back. So we were in Wisconsin, we moved down to Florida for a little bit. And then we moved back up to Illinois to take that job at Rockford University.

Mike Klinzing: [00:31:53] Did your wife know what she was getting into before she married? You?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:31:56] I tried to prepare her, I told her I tried to fill her in on [00:32:00] all the time and the work it takes and she was fully supportive of it.

And I don’t think she realized what she was signing up for like, to the extent, but I’ll tell you what man she’s been incredible. And she has been supportive through everything, through all the moves. Through the ups and downs. And I wouldn’t want to do this journey with anyone else and she’s been a rock for me and has been awesome.

Mike Klinzing: We’ve talked a lot about your heart, but she must really have a heart of gold Andrew.

Andrew Wingreen:  She does. She does. No doubt. No doubt.

Mike Klinzing: [00:32:31] Yeah. I think in order to, especially if you get married young, Which obviously you did, then that is a time clearly, as you know, better than anyone where you are moving around a lot and you are going from job to job.

And you’re probably not in the most lucrative jobs at that point either. So there is a lot of things that go into making sure. That works. And I think that, [00:33:00] you know, you hear it from coaches all the time, but I think it’s important to continue to make that point that to have. A supportive spouse that if you’re going to be in coaching, your spouse has to be on board with kind of just the craziness of what coaching is and can be.

And that communication piece of, of making sure that both people kind of understand what the, what the situation is going to be. And what it’s like is so is so, so important because unfortunately you hear lots of stories about coaches who. And they’re married. But they’re also not only are they married to their spouse, but they’re also married to the game.

And then that takes a toll on their family and it becomes a challenge. And so I think whenever you get an opportunity to talk to somebody about how do you make it work? I think there’s value in that. If you had to give coaches who were married out there, one piece of advice to make it, to make it work, what’s something that’s worked for you and your wife to help just [00:34:00] again, whether it’s so alleviate the stress or just to.

To make it work for your family, your daughters, your wife, what? What’s the, what’s the secret that you have?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:34:09] Yeah, I mean, you’re so right. That it is tough on marriages and it’s so sad to see a lot of coaching marriages and in divorce, I think it’s something like 72% of marriages in the coaching profession end in divorce.

And that’s something that my wife and I are very aware of and one thing we try and do, obviously communication is huge. And just being able to communicate through schedules being flexible with practice changes, travel, especially this year, man pandemic it’s been a nightmare, but just being open to communicate with that.

And I think just putting mentors in your life I think a lot of times as coaches, we have coaching mentors, but, but putting people in your circle who. You know, for me, I look for Christian men, Christian couples who have been married a long [00:35:00] time, and they’ve been through the same thing that I’ve been through.

And they’ve seen the ups and downs. It’s been a roller coaster and they can kind of see, okay, you guys are going through this point in life right now. We remember that. And you know, I think having those, those types of mentors in your life is huge. And just for me, making, making them part of what I do every day as much as I can, again, this year, it’s been really hard to do that, but as much as I can have the guys over to the house, bring the kids over to practice.

When I was an assistant before and when I was a head coach, I’d always have them come on, road trips on the bus and, and I think it’s really good for. For my family to feel part of what I do and feel like they’re a part of the program and a part of our success. And I also think it’s really good for our players to see a family that loves each other, that communicates and seeing a husband and wife who.

You know, who do things together and they serve each other and  it’s not just, Oh, I’m here and I’m all [00:36:00] about basketball. And now I go make time for my wife. Like it’s all in one, it’s all encompassing. And I think just being able to do that is something I would encourage young coaches, really coaches of any age to do is just really invest that quality time to make your family feel like they’re a part of what you do.

Mike Klinzing: [00:36:19] Yeah. I think that’s something that we’ve talked with a bunch of coaches and a lot of them have mentioned that trying to try to have work-life balance is almost impossible. So what they have said is kind of echoes what you said, which is to try to incorporate your real family, for lack of a better way of saying it with your basketball family and make, make your family a part of the program where, when you’re around there around the team, they get to know the players, they get to be a part of it.

And so there is. It’s not completely, it’s not completely separated. There can be a time where you’re, [00:37:00] you’re doing basketball things, but your family is also a part of that. And that helps to again, to create that, that time that everybody needs in order to be able to connect. And as you said, it’s a challenge.

And I think that I’m sure you’ll attest to this, that it’s an ongoing, it’s an ongoing challenge to make sure that everybody is getting, getting what they need out of. The out of the relationship and making sure they’re giving to, to the other person and not just getting kind of caught up in, as I said, getting married to the game of basketball, we know it’s easy, it’s easy as a coach to get very, very caught up in your season and what you’re doing with basketball.

And it’s important to kind of keep yourself grounded. What what’s your, what’s your ultimately there for. And this is really, really an important piece of it. So

Andrew Wingreen: [00:37:47] yeah, I say one more thing too quick is I want, I would encourage it sounds funny, but one of the best investments that I have made has been getting an Apple watch and I’ll tell you that [00:38:00] because you know, obviously basketball, it takes up a lot of our time practices travel.

You’re always in the, like, you just feel like you’re never home. And when you’re home. You, you want to be with your family. You want to spend time with your kids. You want to spend quality time with your wife, but the phone, it just never stops. Whether it’s a recruit, it’s coach trying to plan, practice.

It’s there’s just so much stuff going on. A player needs you. And what the, what my Apple watches allowed me to do is kind of triage the situation, prioritize texts. So instead of like being on my phone, and obviously when I’m on my phone, I get drawn to Twitter. I get drawn to Instagram or I start scrolling the news and it just.

It takes again, valuable time away from my family that I don’t need to be spending. So with the Apple watch  I can look and say, okay, it’s not an important thing and I don’t have to be on my phone, but I can also see, okay, Hey coach needs these clips. Film tomorrow and I can say, okay, Hey Julie, I need to go take care of this really quick.

Give me [00:39:00] half hour and I know it sounds funny, but it has before I had it, I felt like I wasted so much time on my phone and this Apple watch. I think it’s goofy, but it’s really allowed me to prioritize. Some things I do when I get back home.

Mike Klinzing: [00:39:17] No, that makes a lot of sense. I think for all of us today, I think we all spend, and I could speak for myself.

And I don’t know if Jason could probably speak for himself that we, you spend way more time scrolling through and looking at things that you probably would be better off not spending your time scrolling through and listening. Yeah. But it’s, I mean, no doubt. It’s a good thing. I mean, it it’s. It is addicting to go through and look and find this, and I’m following this site or I’m adding this and it’s just, it gets real easy to lose five minutes here and 10 minutes there and 15 minutes there.

And all of a sudden you look around and you’ve lost an hour and a half of the day where you could have been sitting down and reading with your kids, or [00:40:00] you could have been more engaged at the dinner table or whatever it is. And it’s just a really slippery slope. And you gotta have your system and if the Apple watches the system, then that works.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:40:12] I find myself always right before I go to bed, I tell myself I’m going to bed. And then like, I start scrolling. And the next thing I know, it’s 20 minutes later. I’m like, Oh crap, what was I just doing? What I’m supposed to be in bed right now? You know what I mean? And, and whatever rabbit hole I’ve fallen into.

Mike Klinzing: [00:40:27] So I can’t remember where I read this, but. I read a piece of advice and trying to deal with this. And this is something that I try to think about. And I am far, far from perfect on this, but the piece of advice, and again, I can’t remember where I read it, but it basically said that if you’re too tired to do something meaningful, like read an actual book that could be a value to you or to some work that you need to do. If you’re too tired to do something productive, then rather than [00:41:00] scrolling through your phone for 15 minutes before you go to bed or sitting there on the couch, whatever, when you’re with your family instead, just either go to bed and put, just put your, put your phone away.

If you’re too tired to do something productive, then you’re probably better off just. Going to sleep or doing whatever, doing something else rather than picking up your phone. And it’s, we’re all, we’re all guilty of it. And again, the product designers that are really good job of hooking us into you know, the, the, the constant cycle of, of the need to check our phone.

And it’s kind of, it’s kind of amazing if you, if you go back 15 or 20 years, and the fact that we all could walk around without them, and now it’s just. You know, I mean, every person that you look at everywhere, there’s a, there’s a timeout in a basketball game and I would bet 75% of the stands immediately picks up their phone and starts looking at it.

It’s just incredible. No doubt. All right. One of the things that I know. Was important to you in your development as a [00:42:00] coach was going around the country and working camps. So talk a little bit about those experiences, maybe some of your favorite camps or just an experience that you had and why you felt like it was so valuable in building yourself up as a coach.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:42:15] Yeah. I mean, it was, again, like I said, in college, I was so hungry just to learn and grow. And so that was kinda my summer job. That was what I did in the summers in college, I would travel around and the first basketball camp I ever worked was the Kansas basketball camp a year after they won the national championship.

And just being able to be around at that time I was not really star struck, but I was kind of an odd just to these people who I was getting to learn from and be around every day. And yeah. See the players and how they interacted with people, but I would just spend three days at Kansas.

So I would drive there and then I would have another camp the very next day lined up at Marquette. And I would be there for three, four days. And then I would drive to [00:43:00] Madison and work Wisconsin camp for a week. And then I would head down to Duke and work Duke basketball camp. And I did that for a month straight a month and a half straight, however long schools are having camps.

And it was just something I did for. You know, in college and then probably for four or five years after I was married and out of college, I didn’t work as many then, but still would work one or two a summer. And I just love the networking and the connections and the people you meet, the things you learn you just, you just grow your network so wide.

And so many of my great friends. One of my best friends, his name is Tag Liberte, and he’s actually a missionary over in Africa right now. But I met him working Duke basketball camp several years ago. And. He ended up getting a director of operations job at Northwestern and you know, coach in the March madness with Northwestern for a couple of years.

And man he’s, he turned into one of my best friends and we met at a lunch table at Duke basketball camps. So it was just really cool meeting people who are still there to [00:44:00] mentor me and encourage me to this day.

Mike Klinzing: [00:44:03] That networking piece is so, so important. And so if you think about this. Going back in time.

What advice would you have? How do, how does somebody go and how did you get the opportunity to work the camps? What was your method for getting yourself in? So let’s say it’s a young coach in the same position that you are. Maybe they’re a manager at a school, or they’re a student assistant or there’s somebody that wants to get into coaching.

What advice would you have for somebody who wants to start working some of these summer camps? How did you go about. Getting yourself in. So you’d have the ability to work. Did you write letters? Did you call, did you email all of the above? What was your method for getting it?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:44:39] Yeah, it was all the above.

And you know, I just always had that mindset of, if you never ask the answer will always be no. And I just wasn’t afraid to hear no. And obviously you kind of heard that before with all those letters I wrote and it was the same thing for camps I just wanted an opportunity and I wanted to meet people and I didn’t make it [00:45:00] about me, I didn’t make it about, Hey, I want this opportunity for me. It was, I want to learn from you and I want to build a relationship with you. So I would oftentimes email or write a letter to most likely the director of operations. And it was either them who was putting on the camp or they would direct me to the person who was organizing the camp.

And honestly I don’t remember hearing no a whole lot as far as camps go. I remember a lot of these coaches just thinking They wanted the help and they were excited to see somebody who was passionate and wanted to be around. And Really they just kind of lead you through the process.

I would just encourage guys trying to get into college coaching or a young coach who’s who’s wanting to learn and develop just, don’t be afraid to hear no and reach out to people and again, try and make it about, about building relationships and make it about serving. Not about what you can get.

Mike Klinzing: [00:45:53] All right. What’s your funniest after hours, college basketball camp story that you that can tell all the podcast?

Andrew Wingreen: [00:46:03] Yeah I mean,  there’s definitely a few that probably can’t be told on the podcast, but one of my favorite camp stories was when I was working. At the University of Minnesota with Tubby Smith camp.

And we had just finished a session. We were walking over to the cafeteria for lunch, and I remember one of the kids, it was a young kid and he dropped his tray full of food and it, it made a mess everywhere. All the kids kind of pointed and laughed and were making fun of him. Like, dude, I can’t believe you just did that.

And. Tubby Smith was kind of in the back of the line and he saw the kid drop his food. He walked right over and got down on his hands and knees and started picking everything up. And that was, that was the, I don’t want to say the first time, cause I’m sure I’ve seen instances before, but it just struck me like this man is.

A servant leader. This is the definition of a servant leader. [00:47:00] And this guy has won a national championship at Kentucky in my eyes, he was the best of the best. And he’s humble enough to put his arm around this kid, tell him it’s okay. And pick up his mess that you just made. And he sat with that kid at lunch and talk with them and it was just so cool.

I just remember that made such an impact on me that. That’s who I want to be as a coach. I want to be somebody who’s humble enough to serve other people. And I’ve had the utmost respect for TBI ever since then. And you know, he, I I’ve had several conversations with him, but even to this day, if he sees me, he remembers my name, Hey, Andrew, how you doing?

And he’ll call me on the phone. And it’s like that man made me want to be that type of coach. And so that’s one of my cool camp stories. I know it’s not an after hours camp story, but that’s a great story. It made an impression on me, for sure.

Mike Klinzing: [00:47:56] Yeah. I think that, [00:48:00] you know, me hearing that, it just points out that, and I’ve heard other similar stories about other coaches and athletes and people, and clearly not everyone would behave in that particular way. And that’s what makes the best, the best is that’s the way that they handle things. But I think the lesson there is that look you’re never too big to be kind and to do the right thing.

And if you take the time out to have some empathy for someone else’s situation, regardless of. The position that you’re in, you can make such an impact. And obviously that had an impact on you and you weren’t even the kid that it happened to imagined. Imagine what that kid, what story that kid’s been telling his friends, his acquaintances, people that he knows about Tubby Smith over the course over the course of time, like what, what an impact that moment I’m sure had on that [00:49:00] kid, you think about the impact that it had on you, who was only.

Tangentially involved in the story as an observer, imagine the impact it had on the kid who was actually involved in it. And that’s really, I think what it comes down to Andrew is that’s really what coaching, that’s what coaching is all about. It’s about having an impact. And I think we use the game of basketball as the tool, as the vehicle to be able to make that impact.

But I think the best coaches are honestly the ones that remember and understand that. Basketball is very, very important and I get it. And especially the higher, the level is that you go, the more important winning becomes in order for you to keep your job and earn a living and all those things. But ultimately I do think that the majority of coaches have gotten into it because they want to use the game of basketball, that they love to be able to have a positive impact on young people.

And I think that story does a great job of illustrating that look that had nothing to do with Tubby Smith. And his basketball coaching ability, but it did have to do with [00:50:00] somebody who was in a position of power that made a decision to have a positive impact on a young person that I’m sure, I mean, look, it’s being felt the impression of that is being felt by players who are being coached by you because you learned something that day.

And I’m sure that everybody else who was in that cafeteria that day learned something as well. So I think that impact is really just so, so important.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:50:23] Yeah. And you know, so many coaches, I think most coaches, like you said, they get into it for the right reasons, but many of them lose sight of those reasons.

And I think I think most leaders and most people understand right from wrong and they, they understand the right thing to do. But just like in anything else, if you, if you learn something and you don’t act on it, if you don’t execute that it’s useless and you know, in a situation like that, you know the right thing to do, but how many people are going to.

Just jumped without hesitating to go do that right away. And so I think that idea of just what you know is right. Just act on it and don’t be [00:51:00] afraid to do that. Even if people may, it may not be the popular thing to do, or it may not be the most natural thing to do. Just act on what you know is right.

Mike Klinzing: [00:51:10] Absolutely.  All right. Let’s jump to. Your opportunity that you get at Bob Jones University. Talk a little bit about how that came to pass, and then we can dive into some of the things and lessons that you learned while you were there.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:51:21] Yeah. So that was, that was my first full-time coaching offer that I had.

And when I was at Rockford, I was selling used cars as well as my, as a job. And when I was at the high school was working part-time at Disney and also part-time at an Adidas store.

Mike Klinzing: [00:51:39] So the glamorous life of a college basketball coach.

Jason Sunkle: [00:51:43] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Disney. You’re speaking my words now here. Hold on a second.

Now you’re speaking. So where did you work? Culture reference, right. So where did you, where did you work at Disney? Out of curiosity.

Andrew Wingreen: So man, I don’t have any photo proof of this. I told my wife, she was not allowed to take any pictures, but I was a bellhop at the [00:52:00] tower of terror. Oh, it was my, that was my, my job.

Jason Sunkle: That is pretty awesome. That, that, that is my, that was my son’s favorite ride. So I just want to put that. It’s awesome. It is a great ride. I’m going in 38 days, not counting or anything.

Nice. I love it. So, but yeah, we you know, we ended up taking the job and honestly, before I’ll rewind a little bit.

I had, at the time we had an offer I had an offer to be an athletic director and a basketball coach at a high school in Hawaii. And my wife was also offered a position at the school. And so obviously the young couple were thinking Hawaii. Pretty nice. Sounds pretty good. Yeah. That could be kind of fun.

Yeah. And, and truthfully Bob Jones was, You know, it’s a very unique school. And growing up in my Christian circles, I had always heard a lot of bad things about Bob Jones, how strict it was, all the rules they have. And so I really had no intention to even entertain going there. But the, our head basketball [00:53:00] coach who was also the AD at Bob Jones, he wanted to meet with me at the final four, which was in New Orleans that year.

And I was like okay, like you wanted me to, to room with him. And so I stayed with him for one night and we kind of talked about the job. He pitched me everything about it. And, and honestly, I was just writing it off. Like I was, I had no desire to go coach basketball at Bob Jones. It just did not intrigue me at all.

And actually someone I met while I was working in Kansas basketball camps, Wayne Simeon. Who’s also, he played at Kansas and he’s a character coach for the KU men’s basketball team. He was staying at the KU team hotel and he asked me, Hey man, you want to come stay with me? And so I was like peace out, coach Ring.

I’m going to stay at the Kansas team hotel with Wayne. And so I was just, I was out and I, I was kinda like, I’m not taking that job anyways. Like this is what I want to go do. But he stayed persistent. He kept asking me and you know, my wife and I prayed about it. And kind of [00:54:00] just through, through prayer and through asking, asking around and getting advice from people God just gave us this peace about going there.

And I can’t really tell you what, what triggered it other than we just felt good about, Hey, like, is this gonna be an opportunity to impact people? For the right reasons. And so we went there and honestly we loved it. We loved being a part of the culture there. We love being a part of the team and we really were able to impact a lot of guys.

Greenville, South Carolina is a beautiful area, a lot of good restaurants if you’re a foodie. And it was just fun to to be in that area for five years.

Mike Klinzing: [00:54:38] What were some of your responsibilities that maybe were, what was different about being there compared to some of your other stops?

Was there anything that was similar, different? Just give us an idea of what your day to day responsibilities were like.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:54:56] Yeah. Again I had, I wore a lot of hats and like I said, [00:55:00] our head coach was also the athletic director and it was a brand new athletic program. So all the sports were brand new. It was the first year for everybody. Everyone’s trying to figure it out. So as you can imagine he was a pretty busy guy and had a lot on his plate.

So he gave me a lot of responsibility and he delegated a lot of stuff to me. So I was the one who was planning practices. I was the one who was doing a lot of the head coaching responsibilities aside from Standing up on the sideline during games even in practice, since I was planning he gave me a lot of responsibility to coach in drills.

And he really allowed me to have a lot of responsibility, which man, again, I can’t thank him enough for trusting me as a young coach to do a lot of that because as a 24 year old getting to do. All those things. I learned a lot and I made a lot of mistakes, but he allowed me to make mistakes and he coached me through it.

He mentored me through it and you know, so I did [00:56:00] anything and everything. I did, you know travel arrangements, hotels, buses, all the operations administrative type stuff all the way up to basically being a head coach that was sitting on the bench during games,

Mike Klinzing: [00:56:16] Do you think, and when hearing you talk about that and I’m hearing all the different experiences that you’ve had, I guess I look at that and I compare what your experience is like getting to be able to be out on the floor and coaching, but also being able to do that administrative stuff and just basically becoming a Jack of all trades and having to learn every aspect of the business.

And then I think about somebody who goes from. Let’s say being a player or manager and they go and they get a division one job on a much larger staff where their position might be. Maybe they’re the video guy or whatever, where your responsibilities are more limited and you don’t get that wide breadth of [00:57:00] experience.

And yeah, you’re maybe doing it at a higher level, but you’re not getting those same. You’re not dipping your hands into all those different jars of things that a coach needs to do. So when you think about, when you think about. How you started out versus maybe some of the people that some of your friends or that maybe started out at the division one level.

Just talk a little bit about how thankful you are, what the advantage is. You feel like you have moving forward because you had that opportunity to do all those things at a lower level.

Andrew Wingreen: [00:57:33] Yeah, like you said,  it’s an invaluable experience to be able to dip your toes in every aspect of a program.

I mean, literally every aspect of a program. And you know, again, at that time, I still had my heart set in my mind set. Like I want to be a division one coach. I wanna be a division one coach, but looking back that it gave me experience in everything. And you know, so as I. You know, [00:58:00] got new jobs. And I was going to be a head coach and I was interviewing for these positions.

Like I had experienced doing almost everything, how to run a program, how to relate to people, how to meet with people, how to talk to administration of a school, how to do compliance. I mean, I didn’t necessarily enjoy all of it at the time because it was a lot. But looking back on it, man, I am so thankful for those opportunities and I would just encourage young coaches too.

Not look, I know everyone wants to be on the court coaching. Everybody wants to be doing the coaching stuff, but don’t, don’t look past the other stuff because it is so important to make an a program be successful. Because if you don’t have people who are competent in those areas, they can really set you back.

And so understand like, again, I go back to that servant leader mindset, just look for ways you can serve. And that might be booking hotels that might be going to sweep the floor before [00:59:00] practice. That might be doing laundry after games. Like whatever it is, just embrace it because it is, it is something that down the road will impact you and make you a better coach.

Mike Klinzing: [00:59:09] Yeah. I think looking for ways to serve as something that we hear from coaches all the time is if you just want to come in and. Follow your job description. You’re probably not going to Excel in the coaching profession. We’ve heard from so many coaches that just say, look, whether they’re an assistant coach saying I’m always looking for ways and things that I can bring to my head coach that I think can improve the program.

And that doesn’t mean that obviously the head coach takes every suggestion that you bring to them and implements it, but you’re always looking for those opportunities. And then conversely, when we’ve had head coaches on. They tell us we’re looking for assistance that are self-starters, that are proactive, that are not just waiting to be told what to do, but they are actively going out.

And [01:00:00] trying to do things that are going to improve themselves. And they’re bringing me constantly ideas and things that they think can help improve the program. And so I think those two things obviously go hand in hand what the head coach is looking for and what an assistant coach is looking to provide.

And I think when you say, Hey, you got to look for ways to serve to me. That is almost a no brainer. If you want to advance in the profession is if you’re going to stand out and you’re going to serve. You’re head coach. You’re going to serve the players who were part of your program. You have to look for ways, just like when you’re a player, you have to look for ways to do more.

If you want to stand out from the crowd and advance in the profession, would you agree with that statement?

Andrew Wingreen: [01:00:41] Yeah. And you know, head coaches don’t want yes-men around them. They want like-minded individuals, but they don’t want the same people that think the same way as their assistants.

And so I think, again, just don’t be afraid to challenge, and obviously you do it respectfully because [01:01:00] I learned this being a head coach at the college level, that it’s a whole lot more difficult to be the one making the decisions and having to decide what to do at a moment’s notice. Like it’s a hard job.

And so. You know your suggestions, like you said, one always be taken, but don’t be afraid to bring them up. Don’t be afraid to challenge something we’re doing. Don’t be afraid to speak up because I think a lot of times, while head coaches may kind of brush it off or maybe not seem interested, or they might not like your idea and say it’s stupid.

I think it means a lot. And I think it, at least it shows that. You’re engaged. It shows that you have an innovative mind and honestly, like at least I can speak for myself as a head coach when, when people would say stuff to me, sometimes I was like, nah, man, that’s stupid. That’s not going to work, but I would go back home and I would think about it and I would be like, okay, I get what he was saying, man, maybe we should try doing that.

Maybe we should try running that set or setting a screen [01:02:00] there instead of there. And it means a lot. So I do think just be respectful, understand that. The head coaching role is 20 times more difficult than anything you’re doing as an assistant, but be willing to innovate and challenge ideas that are going on in the program.

Mike Klinzing: [01:02:19] What’s the most difficult thing about being a head coach compared to being an assistant coach. And you may not be able to narrow it down to one, but you get an opportunity to become a head coach at Lancaster Bible college. After you went to Bethel, correct for. Yeah, one for one year. So just talk a little bit about the transition from assistant to head coach and what that was like, what.

What was different about going from an assistant to a head coach and something that you maybe weren’t prepared for that you know, that was surprising to you when you became the head coach?

Andrew Wingreen: [01:02:52] Yeah. That the first thing I had to learn, going to my head coach and position was how to pronounce the name.

Lancaster. [01:03:00] I said Lancaster in my interview. And I thought I was going to lose the job. The people in Lancaster, Pennsylvania wants you to say they’re sitting in the right way. So that was the first thing my brother, my brother-in-law is from there and I pronounce it wrong. The first time I met him and I was in big trouble.

So I completely understand that. Yeah, I’ll let you know about it. They let you know about it, for sure. So but once I got past that and learned how to say it the right way. You know, I think, like I said, just all the decisions you have to make on a daily basis. Like when I was an assistant. You know, I don’t want to say I had all the answers, but I thought I had some really good suggestions and it was really easy for me to say, Hey coach, we should do this.

Or so-and-so’s being soft. You should take them out of the game or I can make suggestions. And it was, I didn’t really have a consequence if my suggestion didn’t work. It was, it was still the head coaches. Responsibility that it didn’t work, you know? Cause he made that ultimate decision.

So when you get, and it’s not just on the basketball court, it’s everything from [01:04:00] your athletic director, it’s everything from administration study halls, classes, getting guys the right credits, getting them the right advisors. You know, you’re just making decisions constantly throughout the day and it rises and falls on you.

If you make the right decisions good things happen. If you don’t make the right decision, then there’s a consequence for it. And it’s oftentimes you don’t have a whole lot of time to think about it, especially when you get into game time. You know, you, you have to be the one that’s that sees something happening on the floor and you have to make an adjustment and you better hope that you are prepared and understand what’s going on or you’re adjusting.

It might. Let the team go on a 6-0 run and lose you the game. So those decisions, man, there’s I felt a lot of responsibility. And honestly I felt a lot more stress. Like I, I handle stress pretty well, but when I was the head coach, I just could not turn the game off. It was always on my mind. I was always thinking, what do I need to do better?

Who do I need to [01:05:00] talk to tomorrow? Who do I need to give a call to? And it was just. I could not turn it off. And when you feel that weight of everything rises and falls on your leadership that was something that I felt like I was prepared for. And  I honestly thought I handled it really well.

I think I did a good job with it, but I it was It was something that hit me harder than I was expecting it to internally.

Mike Klinzing: [01:05:21] Maybe not as much externally you handled it, but the internal strain it put on you sounds like it was, it was pretty high. And I could completely relate to that. I’ve I’ve used this, I’ve said this a couple times, shared this on the podcast, but one of the things that I find to be tremendously interesting, and it goes to what you talked about.

The difference between being an assistant and being a head coach and just the responsibility that you feel for the decision making and all those. And I relate it. I’m going to throw in being a parent in there as well. So I think there’s different levels when I am a parent, like I’m watching my kids play and I want them to do well, and I want them to win.

But five [01:06:00] minutes after that game is over. I no longer care about what the result of that game was. I, I don’t think about it again. I don’t second guess decisions. I’m not thinking about it in any way, shape or form. When I was an assistant coach, I thought about it more. It definitely impacted me. I definitely cared, but ultimately my name wasn’t going in the newspaper.

Ultimately I could only offer suggestions. It couldn’t make decisions. And so I was invested, but. It’s different. And then when you’re a head coach and when I was a head coach, I’m talking about being the head coach of like my kids fourth grade. Travel basketball team. And I will coach those games and the team loses or doesn’t play as well as I hope they had played.

And I’m stewing about that 48 hours later and thinking about what can I do differently? And I’m talking about a team that maybe [01:07:00] practices once or twice a week for an hour where even if I wanted to make changes, it’s almost impossible. And yeah. Again, you get the point that I’m making that as a head coach, it weighs on you so much more because ultimately you feel like, and rightfully so that your team and your team’s performance is a reflection on you as a head coach and as an assistant, you’re one step removed.

And as a parent, you’re two steps removed from that. And so I just think it’s, there’s no way to really adequately, I think, explain the difference between. Being a head coach and assistant coach. And I think you said it pretty well. When you just talked about how internally you felt a tremendous amount of stress, far more than you felt as an assistant, when you were the head coach and you were the person in charge.

So, if you had to say from that experience that you had as a head coach, what is something that [01:08:00] you learned from it? Where if you get another opportunity to be a head coach, something that you learned in that experience that you would do differently or do more of, or something that you feel would help you to have more success?

The next time that opportunity comes along.

Andrew Wingreen: [01:08:19] Yeah. I mean, there’s so much we could be on here for a whole nother podcast by talking about lessons learned and all that. But I think one big thing that probably has stuck with me the most is just how much words matter. And as an assistant coach, you kind of are friends with the players. Like you kind of are buddy-buddy with them a little bit more when the head coach gets on, then you’re kind of there to pick them back up and remind them of, Hey man. Like coach is kind of on once a day, like just stay focused. You’re good. Don’t worry about it.

And as a head coach I kind of came in with that same approach I knew I had more authority, but [01:09:00]  I also wanted to relate with my players. I wanted them to feel good around me and I wanted them to stay loose. And so I didn’t, I would say I went in with giving them a lot of ownership and giving them a lot of freedom.

And I think if I did it again, it’s a lot easier to put in expectations and rules and kind of keep a tighter grip at the beginning. And then as they earn it and they learn your system, they learn you can kind of give them more ownership and give that away. And I think by me giving too much ownership at the beginning, it made it really hard sometimes to pull it back when things started getting a little wayward and just that communication. They hang like players, hang on to every word, a head coach says, and you kind of see that as an assistant because when you talk to the players, they’re like, yeah, coach said this [01:10:00] and I’m like, no, man, like coach did not. He did not mean that that’s not what he meant.

And you know, as a head coach, I would probably say some things where I didn’t mean it literally, or I said it in a different context, but if a player. Here’s it a different way. It makes an impact and it may not be the impact you want it to make. So understanding that it’s not always what a player hears, but it’s what they understand.

So you have to be very clear and you have to bring a lot of clarity. In your words and it has to be well thought out, you can’t just kinda kind of wing it. Like you have your words matter and you have to think through what you say. And I learned that going through the process. And honestly, since I was a head coach, I listened to other coaches do interviews or you know, like Aaron Rogers does interviews and just how they.

They use their words so precisely, and they use certain words because they know they want this message to be received just like they planned it out. And [01:11:00] so communication, I think just learning how to talk and learning how to you know, do that with your players is something that I learned.

Mike Klinzing: [01:11:09] For sure, What does that look like? In other words, if you’re going to say, okay, I want to improve my communication. I want to make sure that I’m clearly stating what my expectations are. I’m clearly communicating the things that I need my players to understand. How do you go about. Improving that, is that writing something down previously?

Is it talking through it? Is it, what does that, what does that process look like in your mind for becoming a better communicator?

Andrew Wingreen: [01:11:38] Yeah, I think a lot of it is experience and I do think you just kind of need to, you need to think through a little bit. And, and one thing I try to do sometimes is listen better because I don’t always listen to what’s going on, but I remember like one situation we were watching film and.

And I had made the statement to our guys. I was like, all right, try to be dressed and [01:12:00] ready on the floor at 3:45. And in my mind, I’m thinking, be dressed and ready on the floor at three 45, we’re starting practice and their mind, they hear coach said, try to be ready. So I’m going to walk slowly and take a little while getting dressed and, and I’m going to try to be ready at 3:45, but they walked out on the floor at 3:47 and I’m trying to get them out of the locker room and it upsets me right.

And just a little change in a word I used or a little change in the tone of voice. I used it with that. It created some friction with me and these two players. And there’s just little stuff like that when it builds up over time. And, and it, it really could have been a situation like next time I do that, I’ve learned to be very clear and concise.

Like, Hey guys, be ready on the floor at 3:45 we’re starting practice. And learning that from a mistake I made it just changes the dynamic because now guys understand the expectation and they understand what [01:13:00] they’re supposed to do. And most of the time guys will do it. But if you give them any sort of leeway or any sort of room for interpretation, sometime a lot of times it works out, but sometimes they can come back and just create some friction in your program. So I think just different ways like that, just thinking through it talking more, the more you communicate, the more you’ll learn and, and just be willing to listen to people.

Mike Klinzing: [01:13:24] I think it’s hard, as you said, if you kind of are ambiguous with that language, then it becomes hard to hold players accountable because Hey, I’m trying to be there at 3:45.

No, I didn’t succeed, but Hey, I’m trying. And so, that gets into a situation where nobody wants to be in where you have this ambiguous thing that’s hanging out there and you know what you meant, but the players interpreted it a different way. And so I think being clean and precise and really concentrating and focusing on how you use vocabulary and [01:14:00] what it is that you say, I think really is important and that’s important.

Communicating, whether you’re a head coach, assistant coach, whether you’re not in coaching at all in your job and your daily life with your family, with your friends, the better communicators we can become. The more things get easier for us. I know that’s one of the things that’s been interesting.

I was thinking about this the other day, just in terms of the podcast and going back and listening to some episodes. And one of the things that. At the beginning that I tried to really improve upon was not having those little extra UHS. And you knows, and, and those things in, as you’re talking and it’s difficult and it’s something that you have to concentrate on.

And honestly, if I go back and listen to early episodes, like, I didn’t know that I was even doing those things like right there. I just said like, so don’t do it. Don’t do it. I know you don’t or listened to too much of the early podcasts, but nonetheless, I think. The point here is, is that if you’re intentional about the way [01:15:00] that you communicate and you’re thinking about it and you’re trying to grow and you’re trying to improve, you’re going to be at least on the right path.

And none of us are perfect and it’s never going to be, we’re never going to get a hundred percent to where we want to be, but as long as you’re continuing to grow and continuing to improve, and I always come back to, for me, it always comes down to the word intentional. And if there’s something that I want to get better at, I have to be intentional about it because if I’m not.

It’s too easy for whatever that thing is that I’m trying to do. It’s too easy for it to get lost if I’m not consciously thinking about it. So for me, the word intentional in anything that I do is really, really important because without, without it, I think it’s really easy to put things on autopilot and then you just don’t grow them

Andrew Wingreen: [01:15:45] For sure, for sure. Intentionally is so important.

Mike Klinzing: [01:15:48] Absolutely. All right. Talk to us a little bit about Stetson, how you get the opportunity there and what your day to day is like, what you’re learning, obviously, Coach Jones is well-respected in the [01:16:00] game. So just tell us a little bit about what’s happening down there right now at Stetson.

Andrew Wingreen: [01:16:04] Yeah. So my college coach that I told you about that gave me my first opportunity. He actually, after he stopped coaching, he works for a ministry called nations like coaches. And basically what that ministry does is they place character coaches or what a lot of people would consider a chaplain in college basketball program.

So he was actually Coach Jones’s Character coach at UCF. So that’s kind of where the connection started his relationship with Donnie. And when I was looking for a spot just to try and put my foot into the door at the division one level coach weary Pete is my coach’s name. And he connected me with Donnie and really just wanted to learn.

My wife is she’s a senior executive director for a direct sales company and she has been doing a great job. So financially it’s been a huge blessing in our life and it’s kind of allowed me this opportunity to [01:17:00] Pursue the division one level, because it’s so hard to break in. Like you have to really get lucky or you have to have played or have some sort of connection.

So my path right now was, Hey, I want to go be around somebody and a staff who is going to help me grow is going to help me. Learn the game, learn how to relate to people and do it at a high level. And so I was really intrigued by Coach Jones and at the time to Brendan Suhr was one of our assistant coaches who’s an NBA legend. And you know, coach Suhr is one of the greatest guys I’ve ever met, but I had the opportunity to be around those two guys on a daily basis. So we decided, Hey, like  let’s jump at this opportunity. And it was kind of a scary thing. Cause it would be the like I said, a volunteer position and the, we came down and Coach Jones he embraced us and he gave me a lot of responsibilities.

And again, I just came in with the mindset to serve like, Hey, how can I help? What can I do? And gradually that [01:18:00] trust was built. And sometimes I feel like an assistant coach he gives me as many responsibilities as I’m allowed to do, help with Scouts, help with film, put together edits just talking with players, doing Bible studies, connecting with those guys, helping our assistants out any way I can.

And, they’ve all made me feel at home and I love being around our guys every day. So just I get my hands kind of on everything to help our ops guy out with administrative stuff. And Donnie, he’s always telling me, Hey, think like a head coach. You’ve been a head coach.

So think like a head coach and, and help me out. And he’s so open to ideas. He’s so open to listening and I think being a head coach has really helped me be a better assistant it’s allowed me to kind of see into what a head coach has to do on a daily basis. And I know at this level it’s a little different than what I experienced, but at the same time the decisions I understand kind of what you [01:19:00] need.

Like I think when I was a head coach, what would I have wanted my assistants to do? What would I have wanted somebody to say to me, what did I need to be encouraged with? What was that struggling with? And now I can say, okay, I’m sure Donnie’s struggling with these same things. And he may not say it, but I can at least say, Hey man, like I know how you’re feeling after that loss. Like, I felt the weight of it too, and I can give him words of encouragement and it’s helped me be a better assistant to kind of see what’s needed before it’s asked for. And I can kind of say, okay, like, I’m going to be on top of that and be ready for that because I know it’s coming.

So. I’ve loved it here. Stetson’s an incredible place. And you know, I like to think we’re building something special and I think we have a really good young group of players, a really good staff and we’re trying to make an NCAA tournament run this season. So I’ve really enjoyed learning and growing from these guys.

Mike Klinzing: [01:19:50] Absolutely. All right. So let’s look ahead and I want to ask you one final question. That’s a two-parter and. The first question. First part of it [01:20:00] is when you look ahead and you can look ahead a year, five years, however you want to look at this. What do you see as your biggest challenge? And then number two, when you wake up in the morning, what’s your biggest joy about what you’re getting to do right now at Stetson university as a volunteer assistant basketball coach.

So your biggest challenge and your biggest joy.

Andrew Wingreen: [01:20:23] Yeah. I mean, I think my biggest challenge is on a daily basis, it’s the coaching profession is hard. It takes a lot of time, like we were talking about earlier, away from your family. And I think my biggest challenge is as my girls grow up and they have all these things going on, like how do I like I see, I see what it takes to coach at a really high level.

I see the effort, the time, it’s a grind. And I’ve had this desire and passion to be a division one head coach, and that’s still on my heart, but I’m also thinking, man, man, [01:21:00] like small college was a lot of fun. Like I had a lot more freedom and it was still competitive. Like I play.

So I feel like my biggest challenge going forward is like, is this the level that I want to keep pursuing? And right now it is. And then my family is fully behind it. My girls love. Being around it, but internally, and I’m just being fully transparent because I think a lot of coaches probably think this way, but they’re too afraid to share it, but you know, just, Hey, is this really do I really want to be gone 16 hours a day and have my mind cause the higher levels you get the crazier it gets.

And obviously if I want to be a head coach, it’s a lot of pressure and it’s a lot more and I’m like, man, my wife makes good money. We could just kind of take it easy and do whatever, but that’s my transparent answer for you if I’m being honest. But the biggest joy is honestly, I love coming to work and being with those guys and I love learning and [01:22:00] growing, and I’m still pursuing my dream of wanting to be a division one head coach, and it’s still something I feel like God’s called me to do.

And he’s given me a desire in my heart to go for that and to be driven for that. So just, I soak it up every day. Just, I don’t take it for granted that I get to learn from some of the best coaches and get to compete against some of the best coaches in the country and just taking notes of every little thing. Now, how does, how does Donny handle an adverse situation? What does he say? And at halftime, when we’re up 10, what is he saying half the time when we’re down 12? What is he saying when we’re trying to get someone in school and how does he handle a conversation with the athletic director?

You know, I’m just trying to soak everything up how he makes decisions, how he responds to adversity and trying to take note of that. So when I do get my opportunity again you know, I’ll be ready and I’ll remember, okay, I saw coach Jones and handle it this way, and I’m going to do it that way.

Or I think maybe we should have done it [01:23:00] this way, and I’m going to try taking this route instead of, and so I just, I just soak it all up, man. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a joy. Like I, I love coming into the office every day and just love what. I’m not making the money, but it’s still, it’s still like a full-time job.

And I love it, you know? And it’s weird because I probably would bet that a lot of coaches would not find joy in that situation, but it’s just, I don’t know. God’s really blessed us with our situation. And I’m so thankful to be around these guys every day.

Mike Klinzing: [01:23:33] Okay I lied. I have one more question for you.

How do you. How do you keep track of all the little things that you just talked about that you’re learning from coach Jones or someone else on the staff, or just things that you pick up? What’s your method for organizing your coaching library of nuggets that you pick up from other coaches? How do you go about saving those things?

Notebook, you have a computer file or using [01:24:00] what, how do you, how do you store all that stuff?

Andrew Wingreen: [01:24:02] Yeah, I love writing down notes on a pad of paper.  I see how the organization could help with the computer and typing everything up and storing it. But I just keep notebooks and I have legal pads.

I have notebooks and I just keep them all in a spot in my house. And when we moved, they’re all packed together in a box and every now and then I’ll go reference it’s usually seasoned by seasons so I can typically remember, okay, I remember this season, we had this circumstance and I can go back to that notebook and kind of find it fairly easily about what.

What I was looking for. So that’s kinda how I take it. And I love to journal. Journaling is  something I love to do. And I don’t usually just write when I journal, I usually draw pictures. You know, so there’s a thought, whether it’s something basketball related or something leadership related or something spiritually related, I’ll get a quote or a phrase or a picture in my mind. And  I’ll draw it because I’ve found that when [01:25:00] you kind of can hone in and focus on one idea and you take time to draw it. And I’m not an artist by any means, but you take time to draw it, it’s on your mind for a longer period of time.

That really. It just gets ingrained into your mind. So that’s kind of been a unique way of journaling that I’ve done. And I actually learned that from a strength and conditioning coach at Liberty University, Henry Berrera and I saw him doing it and I was like, you know what, I’m going to try that. And I’ve been doing it for I’d probably say five or six years now. And it’s been a really, so I go back to those journal notebooks too, and I see these pictures, images and see these different lessons I learned or different things that I’ve taken to heart. And it just is kind of cool to go back and bring those back to, to the present day.

Mike Klinzing: [01:25:44] So everybody has to have their own system. I’m always curious how different people approach that aspect of coaching or whatever it is that they do of just, how do you record your thoughts and how do you take down all the information that we’re presented with all the time, [01:26:00] when you get something that you like?

And you’re like, Ooh, I gotta save that. I’m always curious to learn what people’s different systems are for socking that away, and then being able to have access to it so you can actually implement it. Yeah. Into your life or into your coaching, which we all know is critically important. All right, before we get out, Andrew, I want to give you a chance to share how people can connect with you.

Give us your social media, tell us the best way for people who have listened to the podcast, they want to reach out to you. And then after you do that, I’ll jump back in and wrap things up.

Andrew Wingreen: [01:26:30] Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And yeah, I would love to connect with anyone who’s listening if anyone has any questions, but I can be reached at, at coach lingering.

So @CoachWingreen and that’s my social media handle for Twitter, Instagram, pretty much anything out there at . And would just love to invite anyone also to listen to a podcast I started last summer called Bible and Breakfast. Just interviewing different people in the sports world, coaches, players just about their faith journey and just about how you know, God has [01:27:00] impacted their journey through sports.

And it’s something that I’m not as professional as you guys are with your podcast, but it’s fun to do. And it’s been encouraging for me just to talk to people. So I would invite anyone out there who wants to connect with that as well to take a listen.

Mike Klinzing: [01:27:14] Absolutely. It’s a lot of fun.

I think. We all started. Like, I think we talked about it during the show. You go back and you listen to what you sounded like when you started both from just your own method of communication, but not only that, but just the sound quality and all those things that kind of go along with it. And it’s a challenge.

And so. I can relate and I can appreciate it. And so tonight we thank you for taking the time out of your schedule. And I’m sure it’s been a long day. I don’t even want to ask you what time you got into the office and what time you got home, but the fact that you were willing to spend an hour and a half with us tonight, talking hoops has been an absolute pleasure, Andrew, and we can’t thank you enough. And everyone out there. Thanks for listening. And we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks.

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