Tim Jackson

Website – Understanding College Athletics Through The Eyes Of College Athletes

Email – jacksontd42@hotmail.com

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-jackson-92026b7

Tim Jackson is the author of the new book, Understanding College Athletics Through The Eyes Of College Athletes.  Tim was inducted into the Youngstown State Hall of Fame after starting all 112 games in his four-year career with the YSU men’s basketball program from 1987-1991. He is one of just four players in school history with more than 1,000 points and at least 800 rebounds.

At YSU, he averaged 13.7 points per game during his career. He hauled down 810 career rebounds, while averaging eight per game. He is currently ranked in the top ten all time at YSU in Career Minutes, Career Games Started, Rebounds, Field Goal Percentage, and Fouls.  He is the number 12 all-time leading scorer.

Jackson graduated from YSU with a degree in Elementary Education. While in high school at Canton McKinley (OH), he scored 1,032 points and had 650 rebounds and is currently the 7th all-time leading scorer for the Bulldogs.

Tim is currently a middle school teacher at Norfolk Public Schools in Virginia after stops in Maryland, Pennsylvania and Arizona.  In addition, he is a high school and college football official as well as a high school basketball referee.

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Have a notebook handy as you listen to this episode with Tim Jackson, author of the new book “Understanding College Athletics Through The Eyes Of College Athletes.”

What We Discuss with Tim Jackson

  • “I thought it was going to be fun.”
  • “There’s really no knowledge of truly what takes place in college athletics.”
  • Thinking of himself as a football player up until 6the grade when he started playing basketball
  • The rich history of Canton McKinley Basketball – Phil Hubbard, Troy Taylor, Ronnie Stokes, Gary Grant
  • How he ended up at Youngstown State
  • “The transition for me to college, the physical was fine. The academic was fine. It was the mental and the emotional that I had to learn to deal with.”
  • “I remember coaches saying you had to run the suicide in let’s just say 25 seconds. Nope, Nope. You didn’t make it… back on the line. And then you look over and you realize this guy doesn’t even have a watch.”
  • Managing your time as a college athlete
  • Handling the losses when you’re used to winning
  • Imitating coaches is universal
  • The bipolar nature of our college coaches
  • 15 minutes early is on time? Golden Flash Time/John Brown Time
  • The value of life lessons learned through sport
  • How good you have to be in order to play college basketball at any level
  • What does work really look like?
  • “Success is what you’re doing when nobody’s looking.”
  • What a “walk through” really means
  • What you can expect at each level of college basketball
  • “You have a better chance of getting an academic scholarship than you do an athletic scholarship.”
  • You have to recruit your own players because of the threat of the transfer portal
  • The most interesting interviews he had for the book
  • The Mental Health of Athletes
  • Why athletes that are measured by a clock (track, swimming) feel so much pressure
  • “Embrace it, make it enjoyable because not every moment is going to be fun.”
  • The resources schools have in place for student-athletes today
  • The need for players to have honest conversations with their coaches (both high school and college)
  • Growing up in the 70’s and 80’s as a basketball player

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[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here without my co-host Jason Sunkle tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Tim Jackson, the author of the brand new book, Understanding College Athletics Through the Eyes of College Athletes, Tim, welcome to the Hoop Heads Pod.

[00:00:18] Tim Jackson: Mike, thanks for having me.  I appreciate it.

[00:00:21] Mike Klinzing: Excited to have you on, I think that your book has tremendous value for any high school athlete who iss thinking about participating in college athletics. There’s a ton of great stories and information that I think anyone who’s going to become a college athlete can benefit from the experience from people who have already gone through and experienced what they’re about to experience.

So give us the quick elevator pitch for the book. First of all, maybe the why behind it, and then just summarize in your own words, why this book is so valuable, why you wanted to put it together and why you wanted to get it out there.

[00:00:57] Tim Jackson: Yeah, no question. So the entire idea came from, I officiate college football, and I was working a football practice.

And I asked the kid, I said, is this what you thought it was going to be? And he’s like, no, I thought it was going to be fun. It’s like, wow, no one told you. So then I’m working Arizona state scrimmage. And there’s a kid who’s hurt and he’s on the sideline. And so I, I asked him, I said, again, is this what you thought it was going to be?

Did you realize once you got hurt that you kind of no longer matter? He says he starts, he kinda chuckles. Man. That is exactly. He’s like I’m invisible. No one sees me. No one knows me. So the, the point came that college athletes aren’t really aware or weren’t aware of what the expectations. Most of them knew that it was going to be work and that it was a lot of a lot of time.

And you had to learn how to manage your time and you had to be academically prepared. But I think the bigger picture is there were just so many things that as athletes we wish we had have known. And the thing that I’m realizing is for me, that was 30, 35 years ago, but nothing’s changed all these things that athletes go through high school athletes have no idea.

 they get some of the pieces, but in general, there’s really no knowledge of truly what takes place. So I wanted to get that information. So that’s the why,

[00:02:35] Mike Klinzing: You are a hundred percent, right? That I think high school athletes and parents and families have really no idea what they’re getting into.

And I think you said it very well. They get about back in the time when you played college basketball, same era as me. And I’m curious to kind of dive into your experiences what those were like compared to what my experiences were like. And then we can relate that to what the college experience is like for.

Kids today. So let’s go back in time to when you were a kid, talk about some of your first experiences with the game of basketball, how you got introduced to the game. Just what are some of your earliest memories?

[00:03:20] Tim Jackson: Okay. Well, it’s so funny. I recently just spoke to athletes at McKinley where I went to high school Canton McKinley, and I was sort of reminiscing and there are memories that I kind of forgotten about.

When I actually, the first year I ever played I totally forgot about because one of the kids asked how’d you get started while I was in the sixth grade, I grew up Northeast Ohio football, football’s love, and basketball was just something that.

And I’m like, I’m a football player. I’m not playing basketball, but all my team, all my friends were on, on our elementary school team. And at that time, all the elementary schools in Canton, there was a league and we all played each other. And the coach came to the playground. I was probably in the sixth grade.

I was probably about six foot tall. And he’s salivating thinking, no, this kid needs to be playing basketball. And again, I’m a football player. I don’t I’m not playing basketball. So he convinced me to play. And fast forward, we actually won the championship and I hit the game winning shot. It was actually, it was a sky hook by the way.

Nice Kareem Abdul-Jabbar sky hook. And we beat a pretty legendary team that had some solid names throughout the history of Canton basketball and it started my actual love for the game.  I think it’s like that storybook beginning of guy plays a sport that he’s never played before organized wins.

The championship hits the game, winning shot is wins the MVP of the, of the team, MVP of the league. And then move on to junior high. And two years we didn’t lose a game. And then I get to McKinley and McKinley it’s I I’ve had this conversation so many times about the history of camp, McKinley basketball, and one of the people in the book, Andre brown, who was a teammate of mine from Youngstown, he used to so sick of hearing Canton McKinley.

And it’s like we, we have a pride and it’s it’s, it’s a storied program. And for me, just to be a part of it was, was tremendous. It was you grow up in Canton, you hear the stories of legends, of Phil Hubbard and Troy Taylor, Ronnie Stokes, Gary Grant and it’s just so many people and you just, you just, your goal is to just being mentioned to live follow in those footsteps and just being mentioned in the same breath as some of those people.

[00:06:17] Mike Klinzing: So  playing in the field house…

[00:06:22] Tim Jackson: I’m assuming you played in the field house.

[00:06:24] Mike Klinzing: I’ve I have only, I did not ever play a game in the field house, but I coached a game in the field house and I’ve been to many games. In the field who aren’t aware, it’s just, it’s just a great, it’s, it’s an unbelievable venue.

[00:06:43] Tim Jackson: It’s an old school, old arena. The weird thing is I have no idea how many people it holds.  I’ve heard 10,000, I’ve heard 6,000. I know it’s thousands, but I have no idea. And there were, there were nights where there were so many people in the building that the floor, the condensation from the it’s cold outside.

And then there’s, it’s just so warm inside. And I remember once we play, we were playing Timken when they had a really, really good team and it was Valentine’s day. And it was just, it felt like we were playing on ice because there’s just so much condensation on the floor. And I think, I want to say there were about 8,000 people in the building.

But it’s, it’s a, it’s an amazing place. But the funny thing is it’s my third favorite place to play in terms of high school basketball. My number one place was always jar. Rina. I always had loved playing in whenever we would play central Hower, we would play at the jar. And so when I got to Youngstown and we played against Akron, I still had some of my best games in that arena.

And then my second favorite place would be the civic center downtown king, because they had the, they had the floor the, the movable. And so, yeah, I had someone buy some of my best dunk. Some of my best games played there, but, and

[00:08:22] Mike Klinzing: almost got me where I could touch the net when I had that. And when I had that nice springy floor, I could probably get it.

I could probably get up. I might’ve been able to touch the room.

[00:08:30] Tim Jackson: So yeah, we had some legendary like I remember playing Barberton in there. We played worn the old Warren Western Reserve team that all these schools that no longer exist.

[00:08:40] Mike Klinzing:  Exactly. Yeah. You go back and you look at the high school basketball landscape now and trying to recognize what league teams are in and this and that.

It’s funny because I was out on a high school basketball for a little while after I got done coaching. And I was kind of in the weeds with my own kids as they were young. And now my son is finishing up his sophomore year of high school now. And so it’s kind of gotten me back into high school basketball and get a chance to see guys.

And then I’m watching kids that he kind of grew up playing against and like, oh yeah, I know that kid from here. I know that kid from there, whereas for a long time, I was kind of out of that mix. So it’s. To be able to go back and start going to games again, and kind of knowing, knowing some players go into some of these places to watch games.

It’s a lot of fun again.

[00:09:26] Tim Jackson: That’s great. That’s awesome. Yeah. It’s, it’s again, growing up in a football state, we sometimes lose track of how great the basketball was. I don’t have a true following of Ohio basketball, but just picking up a newspaper every once in a while playing dealer or the repository Akron beacon journal and seeing, okay.

Yeah. Some of these, some of the, some of the teams are still.  legendary teams and some of them they’re not what they used to be, but there’s, there’s always going to be talent in Ohio.

[00:10:04] Mike Klinzing: And the state of Ohio has so many colleges. When you think about the number of division one schools in the state of Ohio, and then you think about the number of division three schools in the state of Ohio, the opportunity to play college basketball.

If you are in Ohio high school basketball player, and you have that kind of ability, there’s plenty of places that you can go right here in the state of Ohio to play your college basketball. So talk a little bit about your experience and your decision to go to Youngstown state. What was your recruitment like?

[00:10:34] Tim Jackson: It’s a, it’s a very interesting story because for the most part I was recruited mainly by Ohio university, Eastern Michigan Bowling Green was in the mix. Actually Kent was in the mix for a little bit. And. I think I had narrowed my choices down to either Ohio university, bowling green or Eastern.

And so we had just completed our state championship run and a guy named bill Daley, who was coach at Youngstown. He was the assistant coach. He had just gotten the head job and his assistant was David Greer. David Greer is a McKinley guy. I played for him as a kid in summer league, I knew, I know his family very well known him majority of my life.

So he took an assistant job at Youngstown and this was his actual recruiting pitch. Timmy. We were driving up to Youngstown to go watch a basketball game, and then you’re going to commit to Youngstown. So I’m like, that’s your actual pitch? And he’s like, yeah, I already talked to your parents. You’re you’re good.

You’re coming to Youngstown.

[00:11:46] Mike Klinzing: This decision was made above your pay grade apparently

[00:11:48] Tim Jackson: Completely. And the funny thing is I knew nothing about Youngstown. I’d been there a few times.  we played a couple of schools. We played Boardman, we played boot and play a young sound south. And then our football team had played moody. So we went up to watch the Mooney game.

It was actually played at Stan ball stadium at YSU.  junior high, we played in a tournament in Poland, hold in Ohio, which is a suburb of Youngstown, but I knew nothing. Youngstown was not even in the picture in terms of recruitment. It wasn’t it wasn’t a school that was on my radar whatsoever.

And that’s where I just David Greer said you’re coming. So so it’s probably one of the weirdest recruiting stories, because as far as I know, I don’t know I’ve heard stories of people who chose a college without actually visiting kind of like the Maurice Clarett situation where he like, oh, I’m going to Ohio state, but  it’s.

I’m a true believer that things, everything happens for a reason and it was the right place for me. It was a struggle because coming from we were 25 and three, my senior year at McKinley. I thought we had our best season the previous year and we lost to Akron Central Hower, Eric Glenn.

We beat them regular season in, in, I can’t remember how many, how many points we beat them, but I knew we were a better team and they ended up winning the state championship that year

[00:13:27] Mike Klinzing: Funny how that happens. Right, exactly. Where you feel like your team is feel like your team is, is, is the better team and it doesn’t, unfortunately, sometimes you only get one crack.

[00:13:39] Tim Jackson: With McKinley being, and I don’t know if you know this, but McKinley is the winning as basketball program in the state of Ohio. And the hardest thing to swallow is I think we only have three state championships. And if I remember correctly, I think we have eight runner up. So there’s, there’s historically has always been so much talent.

And the, the team that won the 84 state championship Gary Grant, Anthony Robinson, Dale Jackson, that team was it was a loaded team. But if you, if you ask anyone from Canton, Hey, is that the best team that ever fi McKinley ever fielded? Oh no, no, no. There are teams that this thing, Phil Hubbard never won a state championship.

Nick Weatherspoon never won a state championship. Eric Snow never won a state championship.  when you think about the great players that come out of McKinley and the great teams that team what year was that? That would’ve been 1992. I think they had four division, one starters on the, on the basketball team and two of them went on to play NBA and I I think they lost to Jackson the Jamie Bosley team, which was a really good team.

But when you look at again, McKinley it’s like we had some teams that were just. So good, but just could not for whatever reason when the state championship, but anyway moving on the Youngstown for me having the we, we, we prided ourselves at McKinley and playing tough, hard nose basketball.

We were a defensive school  teams, most of the teams that we just rolled the basketballs out and just just showed up. But our conditioning program was I think second to none for high school. I remember the days of just watching our coaches finger point from inline inline, we were just running sprints, you know my first coach was Mike Riley and I, I truly remember not touching her basketball until October when all we did was defensive stance and defensive slides.

You had to sit in a defensive stance and if you’ve moved. He would start the count over. And then we would with a high school band next to the hall of fame, that used to be a hill, we would run the hill and then we would go down to the, to the baseball field and just do sprints. And that’s we never touched the basketball.

And that was, that was the mentality that we had is we’re, we’re going to be in better shape than you in the fourth quarter, if, if we get to there. And I think the other thing is every team we play, I think we were their biggest game of the year. And when, when you have teams come into the field house or we go to them and you have to, you can’t take them out.

Yeah, regardless of who you’re playing, because if they’re going to play their best basketball that makes you have to step it up. So by the time I got the young sound, it was like, okay, I know how to work.  I, I understand the concepts of defense but college basketball regardless is a lot more difficult.

So just we have the terminology, we understood the defenses and we understood how to defend pretty much any, whether it’s a zone, whether it was a man we, we understood the fact that if, if you can’t play, man, you can’t, you can’t play. And there’s so many players who get the college and all they do is play zone and they, they can’t match it up and they can’t defend, you know one of the things I constantly remember is my coach in, after bill Bailey died, Jim Clemens, I didn’t even mention that.

So I get to Youngstown. I’m sorry. I’m all over the place. But I get to Youngstown and the coach who recruited me, he dies, he dies of cancer. So then Dave Greer still there, but then they bring in Jim Clemons, who was an assistant coach at Ohio state who play for Ohio state. I think he was a Columbus east guy.

He always talked about his 1972 state championship or whatever. He rubbed that in our face. Oh, you I won a state championship, like coach you, you didn’t win a national championship. So that’s okay. But anyway fast forwarding just, he would constantly. The thing that bothered him the most is when you get beat baseline you do not let your man beat you baseline.

Yeah. That’s like embedded in my head. But again, coming out of here that your sleep right here, again, 30, 30 odd years later, I still hear that. But coming out of my killing it was, we knew how to, to, to slide, to, to cut off baseline. We, we constantly trapped and we that was the way we played basketball.

So the transition for me to college, the physical was fine. The academic was fine. It was the mental and the emotional that I had to learn to deal with.

[00:18:53] Mike Klinzing: What did that look like? So for you, when you say mental and emotional, what, what parts of it, the mental and emotional from the pressure being put on you by the coaching staff, by playing like psychological and those psychological games.

[00:19:11] Tim Jackson:. I think again, I remember coaches you had to run the suicide and let’s just say 25 seconds. Nope, Nope. You didn’t make it back on the line. And then you look over and you realize this guy doesn’t even have a watch right?

[00:19:26] Mike Klinzing: Exactly.

[00:19:29] Tim Jackson: I mean, you’re tired, you’re emotionally drained, you’re physically drained and you still have to get up for practice or you still have to get up for a game. And, you know the, the transition from high school to colleges is, is it’s for some people it’s. Yeah, physically again, for me physically, it wasn’t an issue.

So the mental and the emotional was just dealing with the mind games, dealing with the fact that you had to learn how to manage your time.  the thing. And I talk about it a lot in the book, but the thing that in high school, you have school day and then you go to practice and then the rest of the day whatever your P your mom makes you dinner, and you have this this, this really routine life.

Now you get the, you get the college in, all right. You don’t have the safeguards. You don’t have the same responsibilities in terms of parents waking you up, or you don’t have that. If you have a 5:00 AM practice or 6:00 AM practice in Europe at 5:00 AM, and then you’re trying to rush the class after you shower.

And then you just have so much more freedom and you have so much more free time, but you were never taught how to manage it. So that process of learning how to, to manage your time, learn how to deal with things. Number one, when you’re just tired.

No, because you don’t know how to manage your time. You don’t realize you have to go to bed a lot earlier because you have to get up early that you’re so used to the regimen of, well, I’m going to hang out and talk to my friends, or I’m going to play video games or I’m going to do whatever.

And it’s like that 5:00 AM alarm is a lot goes off. So you, you really learn, even though you have so much more free time in college, you have to learn how to manage the town.

[00:21:33] Mike Klinzing: How do you think about when you look back at your high school career versus your college career, and you think about the.

The fun factor or the enjoyment factor between the two. When you think about high school versus college, how do you, how do you think about that Retrospectively?

[00:21:54] Tim Jackson: Playing at McKinley was so much fun and there was there’s pressure, but it’s not the same pressure. And in the, in conversely Youngstown, there wasn’t the same amount of pressure.

So a program like McKinley, we had we had more fans, we had more pressure. We had it was, we won. And  when you winning, it’s a whole lot your food tastes better. Your girlfriend looks better. Everything is just so much better when you win and then getting to Youngstown and seven and 21, 5 and 23 first, two seasons.

And I’m like, this is horrible. This is not fun whatsoever. And I think the fun portion is. It partially it is wrapped around with winning, but because it’s just it’s college, athletics is a job. And I think if I had no idea, I never looked at basketball as a job. I always looked at it as a sport, it’s fun.

You play a sport for fun.  your goal is to win, but it’s fun while now you’re a scholarship athlete and it’s really a job. And as any other job, it’s 6, 7, 8 hours a day of workouts, lifting, stretching, you know training  icing all these things that  that you didn’t do in high school.

Cause you just showed up for practice.  you put the work in, but your whole day wasn’t your. Now college, you have to divide that time between your academic day and then learning to figure out okay, how to navigate all these responsibilities that I have. So I had no, that’s what I did not have any idea that it was going to be like that.

So you, you, you take the losing aspect of it for me, that that was demoralizing.  I think I, I did have a goal playing professionally and I played a little bit when I was done, but I think all that losing just took the love out of the game for me. I mean, I, I enjoyed the game and looking back now, I appreciate the game more than I love the game, but coming up from going from high school to college, that the love just the.

The best part about basketball, and I’m sure you can attest to this is the relationships your teammates the road trips some of those things were, were really enjoyable. And we spoke earlier about Reggie Kemp, but I have a really interesting Reggie Kemp story.

We were playing. I want to say we were, we were somewhere in the south. I can’t remember where. And we started, it started with an honest little simple water balloon.  it somewhat, somehow we got water balloons after practice, after our shoot around. And then it went to the hotel. We’re throwing up out the window.

And then knowing you you’ve seen this in Reggie where he just snaps. So it goes from water balloons to this guy is throwing buckets of water. He filled up his bathtub in a hotel and he’s just throwing buckets of water on people. So you start off with this little innocent water balloon fight to now we have a bill that we have to pay for the hotel cleaning bill that our entire team has to pitch in and play pay for all this water, because he just went nuts and flooded the hotel.

Those, those stories those are the fun parts the, the road trips and the meals and just hanging out and just doing. Fun things together as a team.  there’s a whole lot more road trips and a lot more time spent traveling in college than high school. So you have just so much more time to, to get to know your teammates and, and that camaraderie that you build I’m sure I know for sure.

You still have college teammates to this day that you that you’re still hanging out with her, you still call up and you find yourself quoting things that coach has said.

[00:26:35] Mike Klinzing: Absolutely. That’s I think that’s, I think one of the funniest parts of the whole thing is any, any player. If you played on a team with a coach for any length of time, You always have you pick up on the things that the sayings that the coach says over and over and you just go and you go, you go back to those and you and everybody had one teammate that was the best at imitating coach down to the mannerisms and the look and the whole everything.

And I think when, when you talk about, when you talk about fun those are definitely, those are definitely things that are, that are fun. So I’ll tell you a good Eric Glenn story. So we were, this was, I think must’ve been my most of my sophomore year. And we would on Saturdays in the preseason, we would do an inner squad scrimmage.

And, and then whatever, we’d have like a 45 minute hour practice and we do this inner squad scrimmage at some point. Coach got mad. We went up into the locker room and he took Eric’s stool. Everybody had a stool with their name on it in front of their locker. And Eric and coach picked up the stool and he fired Eric stool against the wall.

Cause he was mad. He was always mad at Eric about his, about Eric’s weight. So Eric’s weight and the, I still remember, he would always we’d have to weigh in before and after practice. And one time he said to Eric, he’s like, you’re killing me with that two 11, Eric. You’re just, you’re killing me with that two 11.

And so Eric was just kind of always, it felt like he was always kind of on coach, was he was, he was kind of coaches with the boy. He was kind of like, I think he was, he knew Eric could take it properly, but anyway, so he broke, he breaks Eric stool. So the next day we come in for practice and the players are we’re getting ready.

We’re in the locker room, we’re getting dressed and Eric. Is there, but it’s in parts it’s not, it’s not, it’s not put together. So Eric just has the little round top of the part and everybody’s like, what are you gonna do? You know? Cause usually coach comes in, everybody’s sitting in, in front of their lockers, on their stool.

That’s just the way, that’s just the way we’re done with like, Eric, what are you gonna do, man? Like, what’s, what’s going to happen here. And he’s like, I dunno, what, what should I do? And everybody’s like, we think you should just sit like set the stool, just set that little round wooden piece, just set it right on the floor and sit and sit on it.

He’s like, oh, I don’t know a coach is gonna what’s he gonna say, he’s gonna, he’s gonna kill me. And so that’s what he did. And like I could still remember sitting in the locker room for, I don’t know, it probably was only a minute or two when we all sat down and we knew he was coming in and just the tension in that room when we were all sitting there going.

Oh my God. What is he going to do when he walks in and sees Eric sitting on the floor on this, on this little stool what’s going to happen? Is he going to get mad and go crazy again? It breaks someone else’s stool. Is he gonna think it’s funny. It’s one of those cases where I’m sure you can relate to this where you had no, like we had, we literally had no idea.

It could have been one of a million outcomes. It could have been anything and it turned out it worked out well. Cause he came in and he looked at Eric and he looked at him again and then he just kind of started laughing and everything and everything was fine, but it could have been a bit definitely depending on his mood, it definitely could have gone a million, a million different directions.

[00:29:58] Tim Jackson: I have no idea what bipolar was at that time, but I think that’s a, that’s a requirement of every college coaches that you have to be bipolar and you have to, if you think your coach is going to be in a good mood, there it’s the opposite. If you think they’re in the bad mood and all of a sudden they’re happy Yeah.

It’s it’s yeah. That’s you just don’t know what you’re going to get. I think like Forest Gump It said coaches are like a box of chocolates. Don’t know what you’re doing.

[00:30:26] Mike Klinzing: That is so true. And I think somebody said it best now. I can’t remember. I wish I could credit who said this on the podcast, but they made a really great point that when you’re a high school player and you’re playing for your high school coach, and obviously the high school coaches want to win and they’re competitive.

But at the end of the day, most high school coaches either are a teacher and that’s how they’re paying their bills. Or there’s somebody from outside the school that has another job. They’re not relying on their coaching job to be able to feed their family and you get to college and you realize there’s this whole different level of pressure on coaches.

And it’s not something that I’m sure you didn’t think about it. I didn’t think about it when I was a player, but there’s a lot of pressure on a college coach that look, you got to win. You’re going to be fired and you’ll lose your job. And then you got to go find some other way to support your family, find another job.

And it’s the first time that you really in that situation as a player. And I think you described it really well when you say that it just becomes, it becomes a job. And like I was a kid who loved basketball and I, there was not one moment in high school that I can ever remember, even for one second thinking man basketball.

Isn’t just the most awesome thing that I’ve ever done. It was so much fun. Every moment of practice, bus trips, games, like I loved every single second of it. And then you get to college and my sister, she now, unlike you, I didn’t play very much as a freshman. I played I started my last three years, but my freshman year I played maybe, I don’t know between like probably four and six minutes a game.

And there was gangs right in play at all. And so to go through that grind, And knowing that there was no carrot at the end of that, that you were going to be able to actually get into a game that was some of the most difficult years. And I had to, we had seven freshmen, my, my freshman year that was seven scholarship freshmen.

And I would live with two of them. And my two, my two roommates played even less than me. So I can remember sitting where we would be in the dorm room watching like reruns on channel 43 of the Dick van Dyke show would be the show. That was the show that came on, like right at like 2:30 or something.

And that was when we had to leave for practice. And I remember still, like even years later, like having PTSD, whenever I hear the theme song from that, from that show me like, oh no, we gotta go. We gotta go to practice now. And I mean, again, like I’m a kid who loved basketball. I still love it. But man, that was the most difficult year of my life.

[00:32:53] Tim Jackson: Do you remember a player named Steve Ellis? Steve Perry, mountain Maslin. So Steve, Steve, I, again, I, I had known Steve for a while. Steve went to air force academy, and I don’t want to put it, he passed years ago, but Steve got kicked out of air force academy because he had, he had a little problem. So he comes to Youngstown and he’s late to practice like three mornings in a row.

And he’s you late to practice, you have to run there’s, there’s no other way around it. And sometimes everybody has to run depending on again, how coach feels exactly. So Steve says, Hey, I guarantee you, I’m not going to be late tomorrow. It’s like, what are you going to set your alarm earlier? He’s like, no, I’m going to sleep outside the stadium.

Winter time, Northeast, Ohio. So next morning I get up and get the practice. He’s there. He’s dressed. He’s already, he’s already stretching. He’s early. Steve, did you sleep outside? Served it. I got a 12 pack of Bush went to sleep right outside. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah. Slept all night slept well. And when coach came and unlocked the door, I was, I was here.

Wow. That’s, that’s a different kind of commitment. I think that’s probably the goofiest thing I ever remember. But if it works it works.

[00:34:30] Mike Klinzing: Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Gotta do what you gotta do. You’re going to, if you’re going to buy the things I like when I going through your book, and this is something that I’ll I think I could totally relate to is you talked about how being on time.

Isn’t being on time.

[00:34:45] Tim Jackson: Oh, yeah, you gotta be there. Like, if you’re, if you’re on time, you’re late. If you’re early, you’re on time. Correct.

[00:34:53] Mike Klinzing: We always had, we called it, we call the golden flash time. Like you’re supposed to be there 15, 15 minutes early. It was our 15 minutes early. It was our time caught off. You had to be there 15 minutes early.

[00:35:03] Tim Jackson: We called it John Brown time. And because Jim Clemons used to say, I’ll be John Brown for everything. He would say, I’ll be John Brown. It’s kind of like Denzel in the movie, John, that was his saying job. So someone would say, Hey, what time is it? Do you mean real time or John Brown time? Because he made you such a watch is 15 minutes.

And you, you had to be in every everywhere you go, you had to be there 15 minutes early. That was his rule. So you guys, you had a name for it. We all, we had a name for it as well. 15 it’s it’s a wonderful life lesson because if you’re, if you’re, if you’re in, if you’re in the habit of being somewhere early you’re on time.

[00:35:51] Mike Klinzing: Yup. There’s value in it, but sometimes you want more, especially as an 18 or 19 year old kid, you’re like, just tell me to be here 15 minutes early. Like what’s the, why do I tell me to be here at two? When you really want me here at 1 45, it doesn’t make any sense. Just tell me

[00:36:06] Tim Jackson: that ’cause an 18 year old is not going to listen and follow directions and they’re going to do their own thing.

So I’m going to make you run regardless. Now. Just give you a reason for it. That’s really that that’s that mind game. But I mean, when you really think about.  as an adult, all the things you, you learned through sports that you can still apply. And it’s, I mean, it’s, I, I love sports for that reason.

And I even mentioned that there are companies that hire people that played sports in college because you know how to get along with other people. And sometimes you don’t like those people, you still have to get along with them. You, you understand what it’s like to have to push through something that’s difficult.

You understand that you have to rely on other people to be successful and no matter how much you want to do it yourself, you need other people and you will learn that, you know what, it’s tough, but I’m going to figure out a way to. And as, as an athlete, those, those lessons are often more valuable than anything you’ve learned in the classroom, because they’re, they’re applicable to everything you do in life.

You teach your kids how to work hard. You teach your kids to not just have manners, but how to, to overcome things that they may not understand. But eventually they see it and you just the lessons are just so valuable.

[00:37:45] Mike Klinzing: They really are. And I think that sometimes you have to fight through a lot to see him.

And when you see them retrospectively, it’s a lot easier to understand them sometimes than you understand them in the moment when you’re going through, again, some of the bipolar coaching and some of the different things that you have to kind of get through in order to get there. I think going back to just that adjustment, going from high school to college, you find out pretty quickly that it’s a different sort of approach.

It’s a different sort of mentality. And I think there’s, there’s clearly pressure because for the first time you’re competing with guys on your own team who are of a similar level of level of talent and ability to you. Whereas obviously as a high school player, you’re clearly, if you’re playing division one college basketball, you’re clearly one of the best players, certainly on your own team.

And then you go and now you’re competing with other guys who are equal to you. And so you can’t, again, you just, you just have to, you have to be ready to compete every single day, or it’s very easy to look bad.

[00:38:55] Tim Jackson: Oh my goodness.  it’s, it’s so funny you think, all right we’re a division one athlete.

And the majority of our teammates were first, second or third team, all Ohio, or all Michigan or all Pennsylvania or whatever. And then you realize, wait a minute, we’re not even talking about Cincinnati or Xavier or Ohio state. We’re just, we’re just talking about w w we refer to as mid-majors, but when you’re looking at these players were the best players on their team and they they’re some of them aren’t getting playing time at all.

I was just recently with Andre brown, one of my Youngstown teammates, and he, he reminded me, I didn’t even realize this you’re talking about not getting playing time as a freshmen.  we were talking about, he says, I don’t even travel most road games. I don’t even know that. And it’s like, okay.

I’m fortunate enough to start as a freshman when I started every game I played, but it was so naive of me to think, wait a minute, I have teammates who don’t even travel the road games and not know that.

[00:40:17] Mike Klinzing: Don’t you take that for granted though, when you think back, like, I look at my experience and I experienced it as a freshman, not playing.

So I kinda knew what that was like, but then my sophomore, junior, senior year, I started every game. I think I averaged like 37 minutes a game. Like I never came off the floor and you look at that and you’re like, I mean, yet going through the practices and the grind of it was still tough for me. And I knew at that point, like, man, I’m like, I’m going to play.

I mean, I’m going to get to play a lot. And yet to your point there’s guys that are going through the same thing I’m going through. And then Saturday comes. And all they get to do is put on their uniform and go sit at the end of the bench. And I remember what that was like, but I didn’t, I didn’t look at those guys in the same way once I was playing.

I didn’t see them through that lens. I was just doing my thing.

[00:41:09] Tim Jackson: So there’s two parts of that. I just thought about one is those guys were at Ohio, right? Exactly. And they’re not even playing, I want a team. That’s not really that good. So, I mean, there’s a perspective for you. It’s okay. Here I am third team Ohio, and I’m starting, I’m playing.

And then you have a guy who’s second team, all Ohio, and he’s not even traveling on road games. Wow. That’s interesting to me. And then, but the other part of that is you, you really understand how much work it takes. And that’s the part that I again, for me, what the book is the majority of the people tell their stories about what they had to do to get to that next level.

 I look at, okay, so yeah, Eric Snow, who we grew up in the same neighborhood went to the same elementary, same middle school, same high school. He’s a few years younger than me, but  his story was fascinating to me because he was always a really good athlete.  He was a great football player.

He was a very good basketball player and literally he was a really good baseball player.  his brother was a professional football player, so they ha they had that in their genes. But listening to him, talk about what it took to get to the next level.  number one, you can’t be stagnant. You can’t be content with just being wherever you are your goal hopefully is I want to be even better or I want to get to the next level, whatever that goal is. So the listening to him to say, okay, I’ve always worked, but now Michael Respert guard at Michigan state showed him what that work really looked like.

So there are so many athletes who talk about finding someone to show them what that, what that work really looks like, because you think you’re working hard and you’re putting in quality time, quality minutes, and  before practice, after practice, now what’s that extra drive.

What’s that look like? And I was telling the kids at McKinley, the story about Kobe, Kobe Bryant would show up hours before. Like, oh man, I never did that.  I was a pretty good player. Imagine if I were to put in two hours every morning before school and then have school practice afterschool, and then I’m going to go put in two more hours of work.

 I didn’t have that mentality in high school.  I played a lot of basketball and I know at that time we didn’t have club ball. We didn’t have AAU, but we did a lot of travel basketball. We played a lot of summer league. We played a lot of basketball, but that individual I tell people success is what you’re doing when nobody’s looking.

That’s the true mark of how good are, how much work are you willing to do? And it’s. The time when nobody’s watching you, when no one’s looking, or what work are you putting in? What are you working on?  I spent a lot of time as a post player but I didn’t spend a whole lot of time ball-handling I didn’t spend a lot of time we didn’t have the three point shot at the high school at the time.

So I back was always to the basket, working on jump hook, working on up and under is working on everything, triple threat and moved to the basket. But I didn’t spend a lot of time on other parts of my game. I learned those things in college, but if you learn those things earlier, how much better would you be?

That’s the question I always pose to myself and to others is like, yeah, I was a pretty good player. So imagine if I would have put even more work in the thing that makes great players great. Is that separation of how much time they’re not putting we always thought, oh, that guy is so lucky to be good or he’s so lucky to be tall.

Well, we don’t see what he’s doing when, when he’s away how much work is he putting and that’s what’s separating the really good players from the really great players.

[00:45:52] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. There’s no doubt that time that you put it. I look at your stories of guys in the college game today they’re going up and they’re getting shots at 11 o’clock at night, or it’s during the season, they’re coming in for a half-hour schoolwork before practice.

And I can honestly say like, at least at Kent at that time, like the culture was not like we didn’t show up. Like I said, I heard the Dick van Dyke theme song, and that’s when I headed out to practice. Well, we weren’t, we weren’t on the PRA. I was not on the practice for getting shots up before practice.

And I wasn’t really doing it after practice. I wasn’t doing it on off days. Cause I was tired. And all honesty you talked about, you talked about how just physically exhausting it is and you just, I, I, it was almost like the rest and recovery. I I’d be interested. Just you think about how division one basketball has changed?

They just basketball in general. I mean, I think I’m sure for you, it was the same, like it was in the preseason. It was no, we would practice three, three and a half hours in the preseason. And then even during the season, let’s say we played Wednesday, Saturday, we practice for two and a half hours on Wednesday going super hard and then we’d go quote, unquote, easy on Friday.

And it would be it’d be an hour and a half of they’d be killing you. And you think now with all the, what we know today in terms of just having players recover and the number of coaches that we talked to that are like, Hey, we we want our guys to be, to be fresh. And there was not, there was not one shred of.

Put into, Hey, we want our guys to be fresh. It was just we’re, we’re gonna, we’re gonna, this is what we do. And this is how we do it. And we’re gonna go, go hard and grind you into the ground. And so the, the idea of going and getting up extra shots to me again, as a kid who loved basketball and in the off season, that’s what I was doing.

But during the season there was no,

[00:47:44] Tim Jackson: and that was happening. And we were also in that era where they were, the mindset was still, it started to change around that time in the late eighties, but it was waters for the weak. We don’t take water breaks and then our trainer would come in. Oh, yes, we’re going to try to take water breaks.

But I, I just it’s funny how you, you just mentioned that, how those walk-throughs the day before the game turned in it’s supposed to be an hour walk through, walk through, and then it turned into this full blown sprint of practices. I got no late. But they didn’t care because they saw, okay, we’re going to work on this, in that walk, the tank became a sprint and there was no, it should’ve been called sprint through Cause it wasn’t a Walk through. Yeah.

[00:48:34] Mike Klinzing: It’s yeah. And then all it would take is like one guy you’d be gone or be like, all right, we’re going to go three quarter speed. And so you’d be running through something. And then one of your teammates would suddenly blow by you and then somebody would get, then they start yelling at him, like it’s, we’re going three quarter speed.

Like I’m not really trying to stop this guy. He just is going by me. And then, so then it’s like, all right, well, if I’m going to get yelled at, because it’s another example of like a mind game, right. It’s yep. Is it three quarter speed or are we going all out? Because it’s frequent. So if it’s three quarter speed, I, I’m not trying to stay in front of this guy.

We’re just moving and going through the motions. And if it’s full speed, then let me know and we’ll go full speed. But it was always, you were always trying to figure stuff out. When you look back on it. I don’t know. I just always wonder, like, what’s the value, what’s the value in some of the tactics

[00:49:27] Tim Jackson: That is a mind game.

I had forgotten about the walkthrough, the guy who just like, come on, mate, you’re killing us. Like you want to be, so now you want to be Michael Jordan in and it’s really kind of walked through. So this is how, this is how you’re going to earn your playing time. That, that guy who who’s number 12 looking back, it’s like, I understand.

Cause you’re trying to, you’re trying to get some notice me, coach. I’m working hard. Notice me, but really is this the right time?

[00:50:00] Mike Klinzing: That’s funny. Yeah, it’s just, again, like I said, I think you’re just, you’re just physically tired and it was, it was different. And I look at the way that division one basketball has changed today.

And I’m curious to get your thoughts on it, but I don’t know what it was like at Youngstown, but when our season. We would get like a two page ditto and say, Hey, here’s your off season workout plan. We’ll see you back here and we’ll see you back here in August. And that was pretty much, pretty much it.

Whereas now those guys are on campus 50 out of the week, 50 weeks out of the year, and they’re doing their individual workouts all summer. I personally on a personal level to me, I would have, I would have hated that because I wanted to, when the season ended, I wanted to go out and play. I just wanted to go play some pickup.

I wanted to work on my game by myself, the idea of having to listen to the same. Coaching staff all summer. Would’ve that would’ve been, I don’t know how guys, I don’t know how to do it, to be honest. I don’t know how players do it, but even more. I don’t even know how coaches do it. Like to me, you got to get away from it.

[00:51:04] Tim Jackson: That’s  it’s funny. I was, I was talking to one of the Youngstown assistants a couple of weeks ago and we were just talking and he says they were, they were getting a workout. So this, this past team had pretty successful season. They were in one of those or the CBI tournament.

I don’t even know what the CBI stands for, but they played Morgan State. They beat Morgan state. And then they went out and played Fresno state and lost, and Fresno state ended up winning. I think they won that, whatever that post-season tournament was. And so I go up this was, this was two weeks ago. So I was Friday the 15th of April.

And there everybody’s, everyone’s in the gym coaches, aren’t quote unquote allowed to watch them. And they’re the kids are they work with the strength and conditioning coach and then they were actually playing pickup basketball and their season had ended less than a little less than a month ago.

And they were just so hungry to continue. And I’m thinking is I couldn’t wait to spring break to just get away from basketball.  I probably, we probably what took a, a good month off where we didn’t do we may have, wouldn’t played a pickup game or two, but it wasn’t you weren’t doing.

Team activity that you weren’t doing anything with your team. I mean, you were not in the gym. You didn’t even want to see your teammates for at least three weeks, but yeah, guys, I love you, but let’s take a break.

[00:52:53] Mike Klinzing: I just wanted to go play, to be honest with you. I just wanted to go play and be able to play freely without someone that was, that was all, that was always my mentality.

When the season that it was, I wasn’t necessarily sick of basketball. Oh, I was sick of basketball. I was, I was sick more of just like I wanted to just go out and play.

[00:53:15] Tim Jackson: So you heard coach McDonald’s voice in your sleep?

[00:53:19] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean Absolutely.  I can still hear his some of his sayings, like one of his favorite sayings was it’s not a lead pipe cinch. So I could, I mean, I could apply that to a bazillion. Different scenarios where he would use that particular, that particular phrasing and yeah, you just, you look back and you look back on it and you, you, you go through and you see some of those experiences and, and you wonder, like I said, what, like what the thought process was of like, how’s this, how’s this supposed to be helping us.

And I don’t, I still, to this day, some of the things I know, some of those things, I still, I still don’t know the answers. I’ll never, I’ll never figure it out. Never know, but it’s definitely, I mean, again, it’s, it’s an experience that I wouldn’t trade. I’m certainly glad that I had the opportunity and I was a kid that I was, I was lucky to, to end up with, with the division one scholarship.

I was definitely player number seven in a seven man class, without question. And  there were a lot of people. I don’t think that that thought that I could do what I ended up being able to do in my college career. And there are probably a lot of places I would have gone. I wouldn’t have been able to do that.

And I’m thankful for coach McDonald every single day, because I think I was the type of player that he liked. And as a result of that, it got me on the floor. And once I had an opportunity on the floor, I was able to do some things that enabled me to, to stay out there. And so I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t trade that for the world, but there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of definitely odd and strange things that you look back on.

You’re like, man, that was quite an experience.

[00:55:01] Tim Jackson: Are you familiar with the percentage of high school players who played division one? Basketball? Yes. Like one like 1.9 or 1.7, something like that. And then 6% total. Is that correct? Is that accurate?

[00:55:17] Mike Klinzing: That sounds about, that sounds about right. Yeah. As far as playing college basketball, I think that speaks to what you talked about before.

Right? When you said here, you have guys who are first, second or third team, all Ohio who aren’t. Getting off the floor, getting on the floor on a mid-major division one team, that’s an app that’s average at best. And I think that’s one of the things that when I think about one of the biggest problems that we have in basketball today is parents and high school players having an understanding of how good you have to be to play college basketball at any level.

And we’ve talked to, we’ve talked to a ton of division three coaches, and I’ve kind of become a big proponent of, of trying to promote the division three game, because I think people just have no idea how good those players are. And I think if, if more parents and more players would sit down and go and watch a division three game, they would have a completely different perspective on sort of what the reality is for them.

Situation because people just, they have no idea how good you have to be to be able to play college basketball.

[00:56:31] Tim Jackson:. Yeah. And one of the people that I was fortunate enough to interview is, was the athletic director at a division two school in North Carolina Queens college, which is in Charlotte coach,

[00:56:48] Mike Klinzing: Coach Lundy just left there.

Oh wow. He went to Wisconsin, Milwaukee. He’s actually coming on the podcast next week. He’s going to be our guests. Next week I interviewed, I met him when I went down and worked at Jay Bilas camp a couple of years ago. And he was really successful. He actually was, had two stints at Queens.

But he just wrapped up his last one. And then he went to, he went to UWM Milwaukee

[00:57:10] Tim Jackson: Panthers right there. Yes.

[00:57:13] Mike Klinzing: Yes. UW Milwaukee.

[00:57:15] Tim Jackson: We’re actually there in the same conferences Youngstown currently, but

[00:57:23] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. Who knows what the co even, even on the college level, it’s like the conferences for like, who’s where, what you’re planning is this school it’s crazy.

[00:57:31] Tim Jackson: But  the, the point that she made the athletic director is that the vision too is pretty much the best fit for the majority of athletes. It’s the obviously if you division one division two division three, not in AI or Juco, but it’s, it’s kinda the middle of the road. And  one of the things I kind of point out in the book is that just because you’re playing division two, it’s not, it’s not a fit.

Or even division three we always look, I think we, we being athletes look at well, if you’re not playing division one, then you failed. And I think that mindset has to change. It has to change because number one, every, if everyone is going to play, who can play that 1.7% chance of playing division one, that means you have to go somewhere else.

But the reality is division two and division three, they just have so much more fun.

[00:58:38] Mike Klinzing: It’s just totally different.

[00:58:39] Tim Jackson: I agree.  if, and I would tell any athlete, if, if, if you want a quality education, go to division three, if you want a guaranteed job, when you graduate. From a quality institution, division three is your level.

If you want good basketball and a very good institution and maybe get a little bit of scholarship money, division two is for you.  you may, you may or may not get everything paid for, but again, clouding Ron stroll, the athletic director at Youngstown, you’re you have a better chance of getting the academic scholarship.

Then you do an athletic scholarship. So make sure your grades are good because your chances of getting a scholarship for athletics are slim to none. When you look at it your chance of getting an academic scholarship is completely up to you. So if you, if, if you have the grades and you have the ability to just go out and just enjoy playing sports and not have the pressure, all division two, division three, that’s where it’s.

[00:59:56] Mike Klinzing: And it’s the right. It’s about finding the right fit. I mean, I think that that’s something that when, if you, if your mentality is division one or nothing, and I’ll be honest with you, that was my mentality.

[01:00:09] Tim Jackson: That’s all I knew. So I was the same. That’s all I knew.

[01:00:13] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. I remember it. So I grew up, my dad was a professor at Cleveland state and I remember being whatever, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grade.

And my dad said, Hey maybe someday you’ll maybe someday you’ll be able to play for Cleveland state. I’m gonna be at like, what are you talking about? Like, I’m going to, I want, I want to go play at Cleveland state, like crazy. I’ll be out, I’ll be at North Carolina or Ohio state where you talking about.

And he’s again, you just have no idea. And back then, there wasn’t, there wasn’t information out there. Like it was impossible to find information about what, where you were and who, who was recruiting you and you get one letter and you’re like, oh man, I’m must be I’m ready to go. And nowadays, I think it’s, it’s so much easier to be well-informed although I don’t think people take advantage of the information that’s out there to understand the different opportunities.

But really again, what you want to do is find the right fit. And unfortunately, look at the transfer portal and there’s so many kids that are just, Hey, I go here and then, well, I know I’ve got a Mulligan. I can go somewhere else and jump into the transfer portal and go play. At a different school. And I being a college coach today with that going on and to me is just, that’s a whole other layer.

[01:01:31] Tim Jackson: Yeah. Well, again, going back to the Youngstown coach conversation about that is he is constantly having to recruit, recruit the players that he currently has. Correct. And that’s, it’s like, that has to be tough where you’re not getting the playing time or you’re not happy. All right. Now I’m going somewhere else.

And, but once you go in the portal and I don’t, I don’t have a ton of knowledge about the portal. I’m not an expert in any sense of the portal, but it seems to me that there’s a lot of kids losing out and number one, number one high school kids are losing out because you’re, you’re adding an extra year for everyone and.

You’re also allowing kids to transfer. And then there’s a ton of D two and D three kids who are transferring to D one. So that means the few spots that are available are, are, are even less now. So that’s a, that’s a tough spot to be in and your kid coming out of high school and  each team used to have pretty much a guaranteed 2, 3, 4 spots open if, if not more, but now you have players while I’m going to stay for an extra year.

Okay. Well, that’s a spot that we lost and then you have another kid who says, well, I’m going to transfer to that school while there’s another spot you lost. Let’s see,

[01:03:05] Mike Klinzing: That’s tough. It’s really tough. And I think, look at your own situation. If you go back and here you are, you go to Youngstown. You’re a starter as a freshman, you’re putting up good numbers.

Maybe you stay off your freshman year now after your sophomore year. Suddenly you’re looking around and going, Hey man, I think I’m good enough. I can go play with that. Uncle played a big tent school. And if you’re, if you’re a big 10 school, you’re like, Hey, we could recruit Tim Jackson out of the portal who just got done averaging 14 points, a game, and 11 rebounds as a sophomore.

He’s already adjusted the college life. We know he’s going to be able to hack it academically. He’s already been through two seasons of practice. Why do we want to take a chance on some high school kid? When we can get a guy who’s already adjusted and you can see how and why the portal could potentially be a good thing, but as a coach, it’s just like, if you’re a mid-major and you develop guys, the benefit is right over the course of four years, maybe you get a guy who is under the radar or late developing, and now you develop that kid over four years.

And by the time. He’s a senior man. You’ve got something. And now you got the potential of having a really good team. Well, now that kid’s going to leave, I mean, he’s going to go, chances are once he starts to really develop, he’s going to look around and go, Hey, I could go and play at this higher level. And it’s just, it just creates so many more, I think challenges.

And I understand the reason why they did it because previously only one, when a coach could leave and get this half a million dollar buyout and then go and immediately be coaching. And then all the players are kind of left, stuck, and you get it. But it’s just created this whole world. That is it’s, it’s a challenge on a lot of fronts.

I think it’s a challenge for coaches, but as you said, it’s not necessarily good for players. I’m sure there are some players that benefit from it. But I think a lot of players are just chasing a carrot that they can never, ever catch.

[01:05:04] Tim Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. That’s and it’s, I don’t know when it’s going to get corrected or how long it’s going to take, but you figure at least.

Three to four years before it corrects. And typically whenever you have a pendulum in college athletics, it swings in the opposite direction. Obviously it’s going to get worse. So I’m hoping that that doesn’t happen where it over-correct as most things do. And then you, then what I can’t, I can’t imagine what that would look like.

[01:05:41] Mike Klinzing:  Yeah. I don’t know what the end game is. And then you throw in the NIL stuff. And that just is a whole nother thing that you have that basically that a lot of colleges are creating just a position of a player of a person to deal with, just to deal with that. Coaches and athletes navigate that whole piece of it.

So it’s, there’s certainly a lot of things that are, that are different from the days when you and I played in terms of that, just the off season stuff, the NISL that the transfer portal, things that work in place then that college athletes have to deal with that are on top of all the things that, that you and I went through back in our time.

[01:06:23] Mike Klinzing: Who’s the most interesting person you interview for the book?

[01:06:26] Tim Jackson: Oh man. There, that’s a great question. So, well, let me start with the fact there are two professional athletes that it’s pretty interesting. Just the fact that there are professional athletes Derek Bernard, who is who won a super bowl with the Cowboys.

And his son is currently an NFL player as well. So that was pretty fun. Just the fact that you get that NFL perspective. And the parent perspective of as an NFL player. And then there’s a gentleman who I spoke with as a parent. Oh my goodness. Why is my mind just completely escaping me? Todd heap. Oh, excuse me. That Todd Heap. Todd. Oh my goodness. Todd Heap apologize for that. Todd played NFL. He has a son who plays currently. No, he’s retired now in the NFL, but he had four kids who were division one athletes and a daughter who played basketball. So just listening to the advice of a parent, because again you you’re hearing as a coach and being around the game, you hear these parents or my is going to be a division one player, or my son’s going to go to this school.

Wow. Listening to parents who, who put their kids through that and then having other siblings not get to that level. It’s fascinating to hear the mentality of a parent who’s gone through it. The best story for me is a gentleman who played football at South Carolina state. And the story is fascinating because he’s, he’s from Newark, New Jersey.

He decides to go to South Carolina state and in the 19, the mid 1980s just dealing with the racism of the south. But the story that really caught my eye was he’s telling the story about how. What they normally do for their road trips. They always go through the airport, shirt, suit and tie.

They’re just looking good. But he said, this particular coach told them to put on their sweats. They didn’t get to walk through the airport. They got on the plane from the, on the runway. They get to their playing Grambling. So they get they fly into Louisiana, their PR they practice in their hotel and he has he’s just like, this is just nuts.

What’s going on. So they, they play the game. They’re ushered out of the arena. They get these bags of lunches. And usually the one thing he just mentions is that every game, especially when they, when they get the steak dinner and needs so much looking forward to the steak dinner. So they get on the plane.

And again, they put your sweats on, get on the plane. They’re flying back to to, to South Carolina coach says thank you because you handle all this adversity that you’re not used to. And they’re like, what’s going on? Well, there was a bomb threat to both teams because it was like the first time that you had two black colleges playing on ESPN.

So both teams had bomb threats. And this is 1985 and it shocked me because I just can’t imagine. Having to go through that process. But all the it’s really, it’s a book of stories and each story is, it goes beyond just while you have to work hard and you have to learn how to manage your time. It’s, you know what players went through either to get to college, to stay in college or survive, or there’s players who quit told their story, the players who decided because of injuries, you know what I’m going to just play intermurals and then, or clubs sports what, what it’s like to deal with Ivy league schools, what’s it like to deal with military schools?

The one thing I tried to do was not make this about one particular sport or one particular gender. And it was fun because I got to talk to, I think I did 39 actual athletes that I, that I sent questionnaires out and interviewed. And then another 15 coaches all different levels, but the only sport that I could not get anyone to talk to me, hockey, how hockey players did not return my calls, didn’t reach out.

Didn’t I call coaches, I would call player. Email, I got no response from hockey player, so I guess they, they are, they’re a different breed doing their own thing, doing their own thing. But  I wanted to football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, gymnastics, soccer, women’s swimming.

And I I’m gonna tell you this, Mike, the thing that was the biggest eye-opener I spoke to a gentleman who was at Washington state and he was in charge of wellness, basically mental mental wellness. So I said, what sport do you deal with the athletes the most? Do you have sleepless nights or do you worry?

And I’m, I’m thinking he’s going to say football or track and swimming and  my followup question, why? Well, their time sports. The competing against themselves in there they’re in their head. And all they have is time to think. And you know what that means. We just have you and your thoughts, anything can happen.

You’re opening yourself to a whole different world and basketball you’re rarely ever alone.  there’s, you may have that one time when you have that breakaway where you’re alone all the other nine players are at half court. That’s, that’s your only, or you’re shooting a technical free-throw, that’s your only alone time.

So imagine being a track athlete or a swimmer where if you’re a miler and all you have are your thoughts and you’re trying to beat a time. So that was an eye-opener for me.

[01:13:19] Mike Klinzing: That’s interesting. Every day you’re being measured and. If you’re not going faster than you did the day before, it’s right there in front of you.

Whereas in a sport like basketball or soccer or football, you can still delude yourself. I have a better way of saying that you’re getting better than, Hey, I had a good practice today. Or maybe I didn’t play as well, but a car come on. It wasn’t that bad. Whereas when you put a time on it, right.  exactly.

Or unless you’re like coach Clemens, you just make up the time. Right. You’re just, you’re standing on the side of the pool going, you were nine tenths of a second slower today.

[01:13:59] Tim Jackson: Can you prove it? But no, it was th th the other portion of this book that my take away is the players who played not the, not the current athletes, but the ones who were, who were removed.

It was not just nostalgic. It was. What’s the word I’m looking for. It was healing it, there were a lot of scars that were able to finally

[01:14:31] Mike Klinzing: Did they look back on it with regret?

[01:14:33] Tim Jackson: I mean, I think they all look back on it with, with appreciation and that, that was surprised because I was expecting a lot of regret.

I was expecting the, oh, I wish I would have the whole purpose of this book was is what are the things you wish you would’ve known? What are all the things you wish someone had told you? That’s the that’s the overall theme all the things that high school athletes, man, if I was in high school, if I would’ve known this, okay, I would have been better.

There’s no question. But the, the, the thing that I learned from talking to. The former athletes was, there was so much more appreciation you look back it it’s, there’s, there’s my favorite quote. There is a swimmer embrace the suck. Yeah. And I was like, wow it’s yeah, it’s going to suck deal with it.

Just take it, embrace it, make enjoy it because it’s not going to, not every moment is going to be fun. Not everything is going to be enjoyable. It’s it’s kinda like when you’re, when you’re doing those sprints it’s not gonna last forever find a way to get through it. And once when you’re done, you’re like, okay, I made it it’s over.

I’m a better. But, nah, I, I, that the two things I like about this book and, and I’m saying this, not because I’m their author, but I’m saying that because it’s, I, I really think it’s a quality book. It’s a, it’s a necessary book. One. The first thing is if you’re not an athlete, I think the stories can still speak to you.

I think the story there’s, there’s some compelling stories that give life advice.  again, athletics is probably one of the best  modes of, of learning how to be a better person. And then for those people who are athletes, it’s everything that’s going to make you better.

So I everyone who I’m talking to now is saying. Where was this? When I was an athlete, where was this? When I was in high school, somebody should have written this story. Somebody should’ve told me all these stories. And I think it’s pretty cool because I think it’s going to transcend time. It’s not going to be like stories of Inyo or stories of COVID where, okay, it’s over now.

What I think these stories are they’re going to be generational there it’s no matter what era you play, what sport you play, what gender, what division, what level? There’s something that I think everyone can take away.

[01:17:29] Mike Klinzing: Well, you’re hearing that right. As you’re sitting there and you’re conducting these interviews and you’re talking to people you’re, you’re seeing and hearing what they’re saying through the lens of your experience.

And it sounds like from our conversation tonight, that a lot of the conversations that you had, you were able to recognize those same things in your experiences. And that’s what I think when you talk about it being timeless again, you and I, in our fifties guys that played college basketball a long time, I mean, a lifetime ago at this point.

And, and yet the, the feeling that you and I share and the feeling that some of the, the athletes and coaches and people that you talk to, those feelings are still are still there. They’re still raw and they’re still similar. Now, the stories are slightly different, but the overall themes of what it’s like to be a college athlete are pretty similar to exactly.

It was like 35, 40 years ago.

[01:18:35] Tim Jackson: It is amazing. There’s you know what I mean? There’s there aren’t that many changes there’s there may be a change in how they do things. There may be a change in, you know what the work week actually looks like in terms of how many hours you can spend those things have changed in what how much time you can spend with your head coach, how much time you could spend with the strength and conditioning coach.

Those things have changed, but the overall how to get through it overall, what you have to do to survive the the, the, the timing Getting up at 5:00 AM. That’s I think that’s always going to be there.  learning how to, to wind down your day. I had a really great conversation with one of my old teammates, Bill Robinson in the he was telling me when he got to Ohio state he was a very smart kid in high school, very smart kid.

He’s teaching in Canton city schools now, but he was telling me, they basically just threw a bunch of athletes into a study hall with no direction. And they couldn’t figure out like why his grades weren’t as good as they were when he was in high school while there was no help. So, oh, well we have academic advisors.

Well, you want to help me out with my schedule? You want to tell me give me, give me some direction here. So  35 years ago. So now talking to the academic advisor, young sound, they have a better idea of students coming in, what their needs are. They’re paying more attention to the details of not just their, their act and sat scores, but specifically what do they need then they’re they’re doing a better job of aptitude of figuring out, okay, this kid wants this, the GRI, but that’s not where they should be headed because they don’t even like that.

We’re getting a, getting a better sense of what kids need and what kids want and  how, how to make better use of their time, how to make better connections. So I think those things have changed because they’ve gotten better and you’re not in, you’re no longer on an island because there’s so many students and I’m sure there’s still students who feel like they’re on an island now, but I think it’s better.

[01:21:13] Mike Klinzing: There’s more, there’s definitely more support, right? I mean, you talked about, you think about like, from a nutrition standpoint, from a, from a sports psychology point of view and people help be in there to help with mental health. And I think about nutrition, like I can’t, we would eat coach McDonald, we ate steak, every pre-game meal.

[01:21:34] Tim Jackson: Oh my God.  Steak or chicken or pasta

[01:21:35] Mike Klinzing:. I mean, and that’s just the way that’s the way it was. And there was no, like, I never, I never once had a conversation with anyone about. Nutrition or what I had, I’ve told this story a couple of times in the pod, Tim, but we, after those Saturday practice that I’ve mentioned in the preseason without those would be like from seven to like 10:00 AM or seven to 10:30 AM on a Saturday, and then we would have Sunday off.

So basically you finished at 10, 10 30 on Saturday, then you didn’t have to come back to practice until whatever, Monday at three 30. And we would go directly from those practices. We would go right to the buffet at Ponderosa and just sit down and I’d be at the soda machine and I’d have the steak and the chicken wings and the, the pie the pasta that had all the grease on it.

 you just thinking, I mean, we’d sit in there for like 33 hours and just I’m sure Ponderosa would probably help the place go bankrupt eventually, but but you think about that from a nutrition standpoint and  nobody, there was never, there was never a conversation. Hey, what are you?

 and again, it wasn’t like I was somebody that was terrible or whatever, but I wasn’t, I was not focused at all on nutrition. It just wasn’t there. Whereas now again, people are monitoring that stuff and they’re keeping it like we talked about earlier, they’re keeping an eye on what’s the workload on the, these guys and do we need to dial it back?

And all that stuff it’s gotta be better for the athlete in those terms.

[01:23:08] Tim Jackson: terms, the, the, the sleep. Yeah, the, the, the diet, the mental it’s, it’s, it’s so much better now we w sleep, I didn’t even know what that was like, I’ll sleep, I’ll sleep eventually. Right. But  normally in the afternoon, but I think now it’s, it’s.

You have to take it into account and it’s actually, I will say this it’s taken into account, just talking to, you know pretty much everyone on campus, every support staff member that I talked to, they talk about mental health, eating, sleeping making sure that they’re okay. And I think that was there, there is a, there is a portion of the book dedicated to, to the mental portion of what what athletes went through and what they’re doing now to make it so much better.

And you have to be able to have conversations. Right. And we didn’t have those conversations at all. It wasn’t it was obviously society’s changed because. To the point where we can, we can talk about wanting and needing help. Whereas before it’s like, that was a sign of weakness.

You didn’t, you didn’t talk about those things. So when we say some things haven’t changed, well, fortunately those things have, and  it’s, it’s still up to the, to the athlete to, to get the help that they need. But at least now more athletes will be aware that those services exist and that it is okay to ask for help.

[01:24:58] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. Just having those avenues available is something like you said, that was not there. It was not in place back when you and I were playing college basketball. It just was not, it was not there at all. All right. I want you to boil down a couple of key lessons by answering this question. So let’s say that.

High school basketball player and their parent comes to you and says, Tim love your book. We’re thinking about the opportunity that we may have to play division one college basketball at some point, what are one or two of the most important things that we should know going in that we might not know as a high school athlete and a parent.

So what are the one or two biggest lessons takeaways? You learned or that you clarified for yourself in the course of doing the book?

[01:26:00] Tim Jackson: tWell, let me start by saying the book itself is not going to guarantee anyone getting a scholarship to any level by no means is the point of the book. I want to make that very clear.

The point of the book is to, for the people who are going to play all the things that you need to know to be prepared. So I would, but I would answer that question by saying make sure you’re having conversations with coaches.  we have this thing where we only listen to people who agree with us or who feel the same way.

So if  we have so many players who, Hey, my coach, isn’t helping me get to college. Well, let me ask you this question. Are you putting in the. Are you constantly working on your craft to get better? Well, I’m not spending as much time as so-and-so well, okay. There’s your first that’s make sure that you’re handling your business academically, athletically mentally, emotionally.

The second portion of that is are, are the people that you’re talking to honest with you if, if, if you ask your college coach, Hey coach, do you think I’m a division one prospect that he says yes, then that follow-up should be asking another coach asking people who are currently playing.

Hey, do you think I’m good enough to play division one basketball? And  I was fortunate enough that when I was in high school as a sophomore, and even as a junior, I played college level seminar. So I was playing with college players and with grown men. So, I mean, I knew, okay, I can, I can take the physical part.

I know I’m good enough to play.  if I’m good enough to play with Anthony Robinson, who’s playing at bowling green. If I’m good enough to play with Gary Grant, I think I can play at the college level. So I would start with, are you playing against players who play in college? And if you’re not, well, you need to be playing because that’s your true measure.

If you’re playing against players that you’re better than, and those are the only players you’re playing against. And that’s your measurement. Oh yeah, I’m good because I’m beating all the players at my high school. Well, if they’re not division one level, you, you really don’t know your, your, your skillset.

 You don’t know how good you really are, unless you’re playing against te next level up is, are you playing against college athletes? Did that answer your question?

[01:28:53] Mike Klinzing: It did a hundred percent.  I think it’s a great point. I think it’s interesting that when you talk about the opportunity to play against college level players and playing against players who are older than you, it’s, it’s something that the system today doesn’t allow for very much, because kids are always playing against other kids their same age.

They’re usually playing with a ref. They’re usually playing with parents in the stands are usually playing with a scoreboard and they don’t get those same opportunities that you and I got to go play pickup.  like I said, my dad was a professor at Cleveland state, so I could go down when I was 15, 16, 17, and try to sleep my way into a game with college players.

Yup. At the playground and play with adults and play with guys who were when I was in, when I was in eighth or ninth grade playing with high school players, playing with college players, playing with adults. And I think that that’s something that kids today miss out on.

[01:29:51] Tim Jackson: My, I had a great chance to listen to some of the podcasts I haven’t.

And they’ve been amazing. One of the questions, have you had a show where you talk about the difference between the players now who are constantly being coached and trained versus when we grew up, we weren’t, you, you had to freelance, you had to, I mean, we created, we made up games and I think we were, we were so much more flexible.

And we were just so much more fluid because we weren’t looking over, okay, coach, what do I do next? What do I do now? What’s next. We would just make things up because we didn’t have that. And I think there’s something to be said for having trainers. There’s something to be said for having coaches, but when you always play for a coach, I feel like you’re always looking for validation.

You’re you’re always looking for Hey, what do I do now? As opposed to we play, we just figure it out.

[01:30:58] Mike Klinzing: Well, how much did you play in front of your parents?

[01:31:01] Tim Jackson: My parents, if they came to games at McKinley, I was surprised it was, it was, it was wonderful to see them at games at, at Youngstown, but I know they never came to junior high game.

I know that it didn’t show up at the playground. No, no, they were and, and they definitely didn’t. Tell coach, Hey, my son should be playing this much or my son should be playing this position. Or now, now my, my, both my mom and my dad were figured it out. People you’re going to play, you’re not playing or you want to play more, figure it out.

It’s just totally different.

[01:31:44] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, it’s totally, it’s totally different. It’s totally different. And we haven’t, I mean, that topic has come up in lots of the different podcasts that we’ve talked about, where it’s one, it’s, it’s a one question sort of answer with a, with a coach or talking about the difference in the system and what I’ve always said.

This is my own personal feeling on it is that I feel like if you look at players today and you look at the 12th man on a high school, The 12th man on a high school team today is way, way more skilled than the 12th man on a high school team. When you and I were playing, correct, you see very, very few six to 230 pound football players at the end of a basketball bench today.

Whereas when we were playing almost every school had one or two of those guys that had no discernible basketball skill, but they were good athletes. So they could go in there and rough somebody up or some screens or grab some rebounds, whatever. Whereas now the 12th man on your high school team is got every single move in the book.

They can go between their legs. They can probably shoot it. They have a lot of skill, especially when you put them in a gym by themselves and throw some cones down. They look tremendous.

[01:33:08] Tim Jackson: Great in the airport.

[01:33:11] Mike Klinzing: Exactly. When you put them out there on the floor with nine other guys, it doesn’t look the same.

I don’t think that the basketball IQ is quite the same. And I also think that there’s a level of competitiveness. That again, this is not it’s, it’s a blanket statement, but obviously there are obviously, obviously there are anomalies to this. There are kids who are just as competitive as anybody from our era.

There are kids who are, have just as high of a basketball IQ as anybody did. And in general, the level of play in college basketball and high school basketball is probably higher than it was when you are kids just for the, for the evolution of the game. But I do think that. There’s some definite drawbacks to the system today that I’m super glad that I grew up in the era that I did, where I got to play, pick up basketball.

I got to work on my game to, by myself, but I got to go and I got to experience what it was like to play with older guys, with guys from different neighborhoods, with people, all different ages, all different kinds of people in different locations and in different gyms and hopping in the car with my friends and be like, all right, where, how are we going to go and find this game or finding some weird.

Jim that there for some reason, good players showed up there on Tuesday night at 7:00 PM. You knew that were going to be guys at this gym, that it was going to be a good run. And the kids today, they just don’t, they don’t experience that. I think, I think something, something is missing. I don’t know what exactly that something is, but I’m always glad that I grew up in the air.

[01:34:57] Tim Jackson: I did well, I, I can speak for every war I’ve ever lived in the last 15, 20 years. I don’t see kids on playgrounds. No, I don’t see I don’t see ’em I’m going to call it unorganized pickup games, unscheduled, UN you know where you just, oh, their kids are playing basketball.

[01:35:20] Mike Klinzing: Nobody plays outside. Not no player.

Let’s put it this way. No players at a high level, any more play outside. You can occasionally go and see some rag tag game once in a while, but you never see. College level players are good high school players playing outside. At least not anywhere that I go.

[01:35:41] Tim Jackson: Yeah. I have not seen it. I’m not seeing it.

I mean yes. The quality of gyms are better. Yes. Is better. The access to the game is better yet. There’s no question about it. And I, and I even argue that at every single level basketball is more skilled. They’re better athletes. Are they better players? We can have that argument all day long.

And I, I, I don’t think they are, but  that’s just my perspective I, I never wanted to be that. Get off my lawn, old guy who who just looks back. Well, we play in the best. I’m going to say I I’ve had this conversation with several people. I still think in terms of Canton McKinley, the 1970s, where the was the era of McKinley basketball.

It’s funny. I’m the seventh all-time leading score at McKinley. I am nowhere near, I would even put myself top 50 and I was talking to a guy named Mike Elliott. Who’s who was one of my basketball coaches. He’s a big 10 football official. He’s one of my football mentors for officiating. And he played at McKinley in the, in the mid to late seventies.

And I was asking him, I said, no, no one from hardly from the seventies is in the, in the, in scoring. He says players were so good. You were lucky if you started two years and  Raymar Morgan is, I think he’s number two right now all time McKinley he’s T’s started four years at McKinley. So we went from an error or an era of you played two years varsity.

You may have started one year. If you were lucky, you started two years. Two. I started three years. Now you got player starting four years.

[01:37:55] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. In our era, there was nobody that was playing high school basketball as a freshman. And it was complete like my in Strongsville, we had a junior high, the ninth grade wasn’t even in the high school,

[01:38:07] Tim Jackson: Same

[01:38:10] Mike Klinzing: I played on the ninth grade team, I guess, theoretic. Theoretically, they could have moved you up, but it was also a different time too, where I feel, I talked to my son about this a lot, but I feel like there was more hierarchy in the grades. Like, Hey, I’m a senior and I don’t talk to juniors.

I’m a junior. I don’t talk to sophomores, not even so much in the basketball sense, but just in the school in general. Whereas now I feel like everybody’s kind of, everybody knows everybody and it’s the, the, that they’re all taking the same classes and juniors are in with seniors and it’s just the, the grade levels are more fluid.

I feel like it makes more, it probably makes for a better team atmosphere. I think then sometimes when you think about the hierarchy of what it was like when we were playing.

[01:38:53] Tim Jackson: I just find that fascinating, the fact that you had how basketball has changed and one of the things that I can, I can look at.

 with analytical data from McKinley is you had players who were so good. I mean like again, Phil Hubbard, Phil Hubbard is probably one of the, one of the greatest players come out of Northeast, Ohio put him up there with Clark Kellogg.  both of them had great college careers. them short.

Phil was the first freshman to play on an Olympic team 1976. You had to be good, but he’s not even, he’s not, I don’t know if he’s in the top 15 all time scoring. That’s crazy to me, the fact that, well he developed as a senior, his senior year was amazing, but he didn’t start as a sophomore.

I’m not even sure he played varsity in this. In here you can argue he’s one of the greatest players to ever come out of McKinley and a guy who, again, in that era, you just didn’t play it. There were so many great players. You just didn’t play.

[01:40:21] Mike Klinzing: You had to wait your time. There’s no doubt about that.  It was just  different.

[01:40:26] Tim Jackson: A different era,

[01:40:26] Mike Klinzing: A different game. No question about that. All right. We have blown past an hour and a half Tim. So what I want to do is give you a chance before we wrap up to share where people can find the. Where they can buy it, give it one more plug. And then after you do that, I will jump back in and wrap things up.

[01:40:46] Tim Jackson: All right. So the book is called “Understanding College Athletics Through the Eyes of College Athletes”. And currently it is on amazon.com. So you can Google or go to amazon.com, understanding college athletics through the eyes of college athletes. Soon that’s going to change. It’ll be in other places, but you can get it through Kindle ebook and hard copy or excuse me, actual copy, but saw soft back book.

So “Understanding College Athletics Through the Eyes of College Athletes”. currently available on amazon.com.

[01:41:22] Mike Klinzing: If you get a chance to go out and pick up Tim’s book, it is excellent. And you will benefit from it. If you are a prospective. College athlete or the family of a perspective college athlete.

It gives you a lot of things that will help you to understand the lay of the land before you get right into the weeds of college athletics, whatever sport it is that you play. Tim cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule to jump out with us. It’s been a lot of fun to talk with you about the book, but also to kind of reminisce about our similar experiences growing up in the same era of Northeast, Ohio basketball.

That’s been a ton of fun for me. I really appreciate that. And thank you again for your gift of time tonight. It’s been a lot of fun having this conversation.

[01:42:17] Tim Jackson: It’s so funny we could continue, but we have to go for sure. I totally appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having me absolutely.

[01:42:26] Mike Klinzing: Open, open invite to come back and we’ll, we’ll ask that we, maybe we come back and we do just a, a deep dive into Northeast Ohio basketball from 1985 to 1992 or something like that.

[01:42:38] Tim Jackson:. Appreciate it.

[01:42:41] Mike Klinzing: All right. Thanks to everyone out there for listening. We appreciate it. And we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks.