JOHN WILLKOM – AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK: NO FEAR IN THE ARENA: TRAVIS DIENER’S UNRIVALED LEADERSHIP AND COMPETITIVE DRIVE – EPISODE 737
Website – https://www.amazon.com/Fear-Arena-Unrivaled-Leadership-Competitive-ebook/dp/B0BPTDHDLL
Email – john.willkom@gmail.com
Twitter – @johnwillkom
John Willkom is the author of the new book, No Fear in the Arena: Travis Diener’s Unrivaled Leadership and Competitive Drive. The book is an inside look at Travis Diener’s rise to basketball stardom from Marquette University to the NBA to the Italian League.
John is a former Division 1 basketball player and teammate of Travis Diener’s at Marquette University. John later earned his MBA from Loyola University Chicago. The co-founder of Playmakers Basketball, John implemented collegiate-level workouts into a basketball camp circuit and AAU program aimed to provide better opportunities for kids in the Midwest. John also worked with high school and collegiate athletic programs on the importance of proper nutrition and the development of fueling stations to enhance athletic performance.
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Take some notes as you listen to this episode with John Willkom, the author of No Fear in the Arena: Travis Diener’s Unrivaled Leadership and Competitive Drive.
What We Discuss with John Willkom
- The origin of No Fear in the Arena and how the project changed halfway through
- The first game John saw Travis Diener play in high school
- Diener’s performance in the Peach Jam that got him on the radar
- How Tom Crean sold Diener on Marquette
- Pairing Travis with Dwyane Wade at Marquette
- “Everywhere he went, he seemed to win at a really high level.”
- How Diener’s competitiveness influenced practices at Marquette
- Travis’s decision to turn down a guaranteed contract from the Bucks to go play in Italy so he could actually play and not just be a backup
- Diener’s experience playing in Italy with his cousin Drake
- “Things are supposed to be hard sometimes if you want super extaordinary outcomes.”
- Travis opening The Facility in Milwaukee and still spending time playing ball
- John’s phone conversation with Dwyane Wade
- “The tougher things got, the more hostile it was. He seemed to just go to a place where that just brought out the best in him.”
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THANKS, JOHN WILLKOM
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TRANSCRIPT FOR JOHN WILLKOM – AUTHOF OF THE NEW BOOK: NO FEAR IN THE ARENA: TRAVIS DIENER’S UNRIVALED LEADERSHIP AND COMPETITIVE DRIVE – EPISODE 737
[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello and welcome to the Hoops Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here without my co-host Jason Sunkle today. But I am pleased to be joined for a second appearance on the Hoop Heads Pod, John Willkom. John. Welcome back to the Hoop Heads Pod.
[00:00:11] John Willkom: Thanks for having me, Mike. I’m excited to be back.
[00:00:15] Mike Klinzing: Excited to have you on. John is the author of two books.
His previous work was called Walk on Warrior, the story of his time playing basketball at the division one level for Marquette University, and he is back with a new book, No Fear in the Arena: Travis Diener’s Unrivaled Leadership and Competitive Drive. We’re going to dive into that book in a second, but John, before we start, just give people a little quick background about yourself, and what you’ve done, and then a little bit about Walk On Warrior.
[00:00:42] John Willkom: Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned, I never thought I would be a, an author period. And then Walk On Warrior was a 13 year kind of passion project in the making that I thought I would give to my kids eventually, and never really thought it would become a real book. But it was published in 2018 and the reception from that book was just tremendous.
And I think the one thing I learned through that whole process was just people want authenticity. They want stories that maybe nobody else can tell and they don’t just want a regurgitation of facts and stats and wins and losses. And so I guess that was kind of like my motivation as a writer when I put that book together and I never thought I would do it again.
But here we are now four years later and I had this idea for the second one, probably two years ago or so, and there were some bumps in the road as there always are. But launched the second book, No Fear in the Arena a couple weeks ago and just thrilled to have it out there. And I think for the people that listen to this podcast, especially this is a true, it’s a basketball book to its core.
And so that’s why talking to you and Jason and just being part of this community because we’re all just folks that love the game. And I think that was really the driving force behind writing this book.
[00:02:03] Mike Klinzing: All right, let’s start here. Easier, harder, or the same to write this one compared to the first one?
[00:02:09] John Willkom: So I think it was probably easier just from a process standpoint because I knew what to expect and kind of the things that needed to be done. But the first book was me writing it about me. So I kind of had the things that I wanted to share and thought were most important and certainly maybe most entertaining or insightful.
This was different and this actually started out as I was going to ghost write this book for Travis Diener. And for those people who don’t know Travis, Travis played at Marquette, ironically with me. He was an all-American point guard. He probably would’ve been a first team all-American had he not broken his hand his senior year and got drafted in the second round by the Orlando Magic. He played in the NBA for five seasons and then he actually decided to move to the island of Sardinia, which is a part of Italy and play in the Italian League. And then he’s most famous probably recently because a couple years ago he hit the game-winning shot in the basketball tournament at TBT to win a million dollars.
And so I guess going back to your question, what made this book unique was that I was going to ghost write it for Travis and just be him, but we kind of just paused about halfway through and said we would get a lot better information and just maybe better stories and things we wouldn’t think of from other people.
And so we kind of switched course and we decided to interview probably close to 30 people. That just talked to us about Travis and I talked to folks from Italy. I talked to former coaches and teammates. I even talked to Dwyane Wade, which was pretty cool. And just the things that these guys talked about.
There’s just so much passion in their voices and energy and enthusiasm. It was, it was really fun for me just to listen to that and then kind of put the whole thing together.
[00:03:58] Mike Klinzing: When you guys originally came up with the idea, did the idea originate with you or did it originate with Travis?
[00:04:05] John Willkom: So, it originated with me, and most people are going to laugh at this, but I was in my backyard mowing my lawn and I’m just a weird guy that way, where maybe I just think about this stuff and I’m like what would be cool to maybe do next? And I just thought about Travis, and again, I wanted to do something that was somewhat it had to be moving to me because if it’s not exciting to me, like I have a full-time job, I’m busy during the day.
I’ve got young kids, this is me burning the midnight oil between 10 and midnight every. And so to put the time in, it had to be something that I really thought was, I guess, just important to me first. And so that kind of fit criteria number one. And then as I talked to Travis about it and just kind of explained this vision of what this could be, some of the stories that started to come out and some of the things that maybe I didn’t know about his career and the fact that he was still playing professionally at the age of 38, 39 years old.
It’s pretty amazing. And so I just think that this is a much more unique story than I maybe even make it out to be, and there’s some elements to this that I think you couldn’t repeat if you tried. And that’s what makes a good book and a good story.
[00:05:24] Mike Klinzing: How much did you know about Travis’s background before you got into the book?
So obviously once he gets to Marquette and you’re around him and you get to know him in that respect, but how much did you know about his childhood and just where he came from and what drove him to be the player that he was?
[00:05:40] John Willkom: So, Travis and I grew up about two hours apart from each other. And he was two years older than me.
And so when I was a sophomore in high school there was this thing in the state of Wisconsin, it was called the Wisconsin Basketball Yearbook. And basically it was a, a breakdown of every high school team. And this just shows how old we are.
[00:05:57] Mike Klinzing: I know. Wouldn’t it be fun if those things still existed, like in a book, in book form instead of having to just try to compile it and have a million subscriptions to online things?
[00:06:04] John Willkom: Yeah, absolutely. So you’d get this big, thick book in the mail. and every high school team, every player, there’s kind of an outlook returning guys and their stats from last year. And so I was excited to get it because I get it and there’s a section that was top 50 sophomores in the state and I’m in there and it’s like, that’s cool.
You know, my picture’s in there. But then on the cover is this guy Travis Diener as a senior. And people were talking about him being the best player in the state of Wisconsin. He had kind of, to a lot of people nationally come out of nowhere. And you had heard these rumblings about this dude exploding for 40, 50 points a game.
And it’s like, wait a minute, is that actually right? And this is like pre-internet, pre-video even pre-cellphone. So you’re like looking at box scores and you’re like, man, he played a good team last night and he had 46. And so you start to see this stuff and you see him on the cover.
And so long story short is that Travis’ team was ranked number one in the biggest schools division in the state, and they were playing the number two team in the state. And my dad and I gets home from work. We drive two hours to go to this game and we get there probably an hour before tip. And there is like not a seat to be found.
And we like nuzzle our way into the side of the gym. And ironically, I sit next to this guy who’s wearing a black leather jacket. He’s got really tan skin. I kind of like do a double take. And it was, it was Marquette’s coach Tom Crean. And so I’m sitting next to Tom Crean or just kind of talking whatever.
My dad was a student at Marquette in the seventies and was there when they won the national title actually in 1977. So we think it’s kind of cool that we’re sitting next to Crean to watch this game. and Travis puts on an absolute show. I mean, he, I think he had like 28 at half, scores 40 in the game.
They beat the second best team in the state. It’s just this raucous environment. And for two hours we drive home and we just talked about the game. It was like, it’s one of the, probably the best performances I’d ever seen in my life in person up to that point. And so, it’s just amazing when you think about how I guess the universe works and the fact that I go play division two basketball.
Eventually I transfer to Marquette. I walk on, I’m sitting in Crean’s office. He doesn’t remember that we sat together during that game of course I do. and the same thing would go for being around Travis every day where I was like he was a driver, I guess behind my own motivation in terms of how good I could be.
Because I was at an age where I was starting on the varsity as a sophomore, and I was like, wow, this guy is same size as me. Really skinny, but it’s just an absolute dynamic force. And he was he was one of those guys where you go to a lot of high school games today and you’d see guys with massive potential.
They maybe score 14, 15 a game, seven, eight rebounds, and you’re like, someday they’ll be good. This guy was one of the best, like producing players I’d ever seen play high school basketball in terms of just like actually dominating the game at that level.
[00:09:28] Mike Klinzing: After getting a chance to talk to him and really kind of diving into his memories of his career and the things that he was able to do and how he went about doing it, what do you think allowed him to excel at the level he did, considering what most people would think of as.
Being less than athletically gifted. Not big, not super fast, not playing above the rim. All the things that when a scout goes to look at players like you talked about, there’s guys that walk in the gym and they just look the part. Obviously he doesn’t look the part of a guy who’s going to come in and prop 46 against the number two team in the state.
So what do you think it is about him, whether that’s from. A skill standpoint from a mental standpoint, from a preparation standpoint. Take that question wherever you want to go with it, but just what sets him apart? What made him able to do what he did?
[00:10:21] John Willkom: So this is the kind of, I guess, driving force. Maybe the thread throughout the book is this guy is an unbelievable competitor and to this day you try to dive in and figure out what were maybe one or two things that made him that way. But I don’t ever think it’s just like one or two things. I think some people just have a makeup that for whatever reason, whether it’s their parents or their extended family or maybe some mentors like at a young age or things that happen to them where they’re like, why is this guy so competitive from when he was really, really little?
His dad, when they were in fourth or fifth grade, drove him down to Milwaukee and was basically like, okay, you’re good for like the area that you play in, but we’re going to go and we’re going to play against kids that are faster, bigger, stronger. Now we’ll see how you do. and even then he not only started lighting these kids up, but he starts talking trash and he just had this mentality, almost this like irrational confidence where you’re like, who is this guy? And then this was back in, this was back in 2000, but so we all know he is good in Wisconsin and his AAU team goes to the, the peach jam. And back then there was only one AAU circuit, which was Nike.
So best players, best teams come together and this Wisconsin team with no division one signees all of a sudden it’s planned for the championship against an Illinois warrior team that had, I think it was like 11 division one signed players. And it’s just insane. And these guys just like blew ’em out. And I talked to somebody that played in that game.
You know, he was just like, who the f is this guy? And he was just killing us. And he did it all the time. I mean, he was doing it not just to us, but like they played Tyson Chandler’s SoCal Allstar team. They played Riverside Church, which is the preeminent like powerhouse in New York City, and they beat all of ’em.
And all of a sudden it’s like, maybe this isn’t like some fluke performance. This guy’s a real deal. And so he came out of that being an unknown prospect, and I think he was like the 40th ranked recruit just with like the snap of the fingers after that tournament.
[00:12:49] Mike Klinzing: It’s kind of amazing, even in the time when this is happening, just that guys can be completely off the radar that people don’t know who they are.
It’s a little bit more rare today just because everybody has somebody following them. It’s probably more likely that guys are overrated now, right? Because yeah, there’s so many eyeballs on ’em and people do this and that, but what, did he talk to you when you guys were, were going through the process. In terms of making the decision about where he was going to go to school and how he ended up choosing Marquette.
And was it because Marquette was in on him early? Was it just because he wanted to be close to home where people could see him play? Was it because of the tradition of Marquette? Just what was his thought process in terms of ending up with with Marquette?
[00:13:29] John Willkom: So there’s a chapter on this. And it was a really good one because it’s exactly like what you just asked me.
I asked him, and we kind of went through the schools and his older cousin was a sophomore at St. Louis and playing for Lorenzo Romar who had been a point guard in NBA was like, Hey, come here. The ball’s going to be in your hands. He actually showed up to his house and he went out in the driveway and played with the kids.
It’s like how many college coaches would do that? And so there was that Wisconsin and Utah wanted him bad. Wisconsin kind of get got in late and Utah. It’s funny because you know, I worked for Rick Majerus, so this was another kind of just random coincidence maybe. But Rick Majerus comes to his house and when he is leaving, he basically tells him, “You’re not going to come to Utah.”
And his whole family’s like, why would you say that? And he just says I can tell you guys are a tight-knit group. I know you’re not going to go this far away for college. But I want you to come out and visit. Come and see it. But Rick told Travis even after the visit that he just wanted him to come out and then he knew he wasn’t going there,
And so then Marquette Crean was kind of this upstart coach. I think he was like 500 his first two seasons at Marquette. But you know, the one thing that Creann had maybe more than the other schools, was he just had this vision for what that team could be, and also for what Travis could be.
And I think that a lot of coaches saw Travis as you’re going to play spot minutes, you’re a tremendous shooter. And that’s what we see you becoming at the next level. And Crean saw him as a professional point guard and a guy that could make everybody else better. That would just raise the level of play in every way.
And basically, I think I can make you a pro. And it was ultimately that vision that really kind of sold Travis on Marquette.
[00:15:33] Mike Klinzing: I’m assuming Travis’s vision for himself was more along the lines of what Crean was telling him as opposed to these guys that were telling him, Hey, you’re going to be potentially a role player and a spot up shooter.
[00:15:44] John Willkom: Yeah, I think, I think honestly Travis said that was the first time he ever even thought about it. In terms of like, you really think I could do. Know, and this sounds silly now, but at the time Dwyane Wade was sitting out, he was Prop 48, so he’s already at Marquette, but he didn’t play his first year there.
And Crean is basically saying, Hey listen, I’ve got this guy who’s a superstar in the making and I want to put you next to him, and you two could be the best back court in college basketball. And it’s like, yeah, okay, sure. You know? Sure, but all of a sudden Travis goes down, plays some pickup games. He’s like, again, like kind of the same as what Travis was to a lot of people.
It’s like, who’s this Wade guy? Like he’s really good. And so there was it was just interesting because even talking to Wade, Marquette during Travis’ sophomore year went to the Final Four. They beat a number one ranked Kentucky team that was on the 26th game winning streak. Wade was like, Hey, I get the credit and scored a bunch of points and had some amazing dunks and stuff through the season and through that year.
But Travis was really like our leader and he was the guy that made it all go and he ultimately kind of took the level up a notch in everything that we did.
[00:17:04] Mike Klinzing: Did you ever talk to him about, I’m curious just because I think back to my own experience, and you probably experienced this at some point, where you walk into a gym and just because of who you are, what you look like, the size that you are, people have doubts.
And whether that’s you step into an AAU tournament, or I’m thinking about more like the first day you show up at Marquette. Obviously the players on the team are like, oh, this guy, we got this guy. He’s a big time recruiter bringing him in. And then you see him and you’re like, Hmm, I’m not sure what this guy is.
Did you ever talk about kind of what his first experience was stepping onto the floor, whether that was specifically at Marquette or maybe just in a pickup or AAU situation?
[00:17:41] John Willkom: Yeah, so it was, it was everywhere. You know, it was everywhere he went. People were. That’s Diener? And you know, Wade was hilarious.
Cause he is like, Hey listen, we had this like athletic movement going on. We had three or four guys that signed with him that were all like six-seven jump. You know, like we had that going on and then all of a sudden, we get this guy. And he’s like, I just laughed. I’m like, he’s our top rated recruit?
Like, are you kidding me? And then the same thing when Travis went to play in Italy these guys are like, they were excited to meet him and they’re like, why would a guy that played in the NBA want to come play here? And I think one of the funniest quotes in the book is one of their best players on that Italian team said, kind of what you said.
He’s like, he walks in the gym and he’s white, he’s small. He doesn’t jump. Like how did he play in the NBA for five years? And then after like the first week of practice, he was like oh, I get it now. Yeah, the guy’s like just hitting people where they could score. He never turned the ball over he never seemed to miss the same shot twice.
And it was just, it is fun talking to people about that. His overall, just like basketball iq, I think were so probably underrated because everywhere he went, he seemed to win at a really high level.
[00:19:14] Mike Klinzing: Did his competitiveness spill over into, obviously you hear about the Michael Jordan of he’s never going to lose a ping pong match.
He’s never going to lose a monopoly, maniacal when it comes to winning. Did you see those things with Travis?
[00:19:28] John Willkom: Yeah, so some of these things are probably well documented over the years, but you know, Travis lived, I think it was the fourth floor apartment. And there were instances when like video game controllers like went out the window and would go crashing onto the sidewalk, he competed in everything.
I mean, we played ping pong and I remember him throwing ping pong balls and paddles and just. and yeah, I mean he looks back on some of that and was like, was it the way I should have led? Was I immature? Like of course I was immature. You know, do I wish I would’ve changed some of that?
Yes. But it’s interesting how we all seem to follow that and especially when we played with him. We were all better because he was around like everything we did, it’s like, well shoot, I’m in a shooting drill with this guy and you know, he just hit 15 threes in a row. I better make at least 10 or 11.
And so I think just that mentality of, of winning, competing, making things competitive. I also think that him and Coach Crean were very similar in that regard of even the way our practices were. I think we’re kind of set up to play to Travis’ strengths in that way. And we were ultimately a better team because of it.
[00:20:50] Mike Klinzing: So what did that look like from a practice setting? What are you talking about there?
[00:20:54] John Willkom: So everything we did had a winner or loser we didn’t do a lot of just running for the sake of running or, Hey, let’s go do these ball handling drills and dribble around cones. And we didn’t do a lot of that.
We did a lot of things where there was a score. We played up to five or seven. There always seemed to be a quick sprint at the end if you lost, then we go on to the next thing. So conditioning was really intertwined into kind of everything that we did.
And it was a pretty tight schedule that way. So I feel like practice is hard. Absolutely. They were super hard. And especially if you lost a lot. But they found a way to really make it about I guess just being competitive in everything that we did.
[00:21:44] Mike Klinzing: That competitiveness.
I think it’s hard to turn off. I think when you’re, especially when you’re in the moment, like maybe as you retire, as you age, as you’re not playing anymore, you can kind of maybe dial that back to some degree. But I think when you’re in the moment, in the midst of your career, I think that’s really hard.
If you’re that competitive little person, I think it’s hard to turn that stuff off. Was there anybody. In the course of doing the book that talked about clashes with Travis because of that competitiveness times where maybe he rubbed somebody the wrong way because he just couldn’t turn that motor off.
[00:22:17] John Willkom: Yeah, for sure. And I think I think that gets really hard when you’re playing in the NBA and you’re not the man anymore. I think there’s kind of a unwritten rule that if you’re getting paid a lot of money and you’re the starter you are given the right to lead and everyone kind of falls into place after that.
What I think was one of the most shocking things to me is that, so Travis had played in the NBA for five years, I believe he’s got a lifelong pension as a result of that. And he had an opportunity to sign another contract for guaranteed money to not only stay in the NBA but to come home basically and play for the Milwaukee Bucks.
So they said, here’s the money. Third string point guard, I think it was for two or three seasons and he basically was like, I don’t want to just sign a contract and sit on the bench. And I’m like, what do you mean? And he is like, at that point in my life, and I’m not saying this to be arrogant or any of that, I just, it was more important for me to go and play than it was to like collect a bunch of money and sit on the bench.
And so that’s what ultimately took him to Italy. and I was kind of just shocked when I heard that. Cause I thought to myself, how many people would turn down millions of dollars to play for their hometown NBA team and play spot minutes here or there to go and make a fraction of that on an island in Italy just so that you can contribute and play every night.
I don’t think a lot of guys would’ve done that.
[00:24:07] Mike Klinzing: Especially when you’re talking about, you’re giving up the NBA lifestyle, obviously you’re not making nearly as much money in Italy. Not that you can’t make good money there, because especially with the NBA on your resume, you certainly can, but to give all that up is something that I don’t think you see very many guys do.
But yet at the same time as a former player, and I’m sure you can relate to the mentality to some degree, that there’s a part of you that. Yeah, sitting on the bench and just watching, sure. It’d be nice to collect a million dollars, $2 million, $3 million to just sit. But anybody who’s competitive, anybody who’s played their whole life, like any of us have.
The idea of sitting on the bench is maddening and not being able to contribute, and especially if you feel like you can contribute, which look, most of us who have been on teams, you may realize that, Hey, I’m, I’m not as good as Guy X, but there’s a part of you deep down that still thinks, Hey, I am better than Guy X who’s playing ahead of me.
I don’t care what level you’re playing at. I think we all think that way. It’s kinda how your ego has to be in order to get you wherever, whatever success you have in the game. I think you have to have a belief in yourself in order to do that. I’m sure that that was what he was thinking, right, is, Hey, I feel like even at the NBA level, I could be a starting point guard and the fact that I’m not going to get to do it.
I don’t want to just sit here during years where I could be playing. Look, we all eventually see that our time being able to play the game is limited, so I’m sure that played into it. When he made that decision, was it something that. He immediately felt good about when he got to Italy, or did he do talk about maybe having regrets about, maybe it took him a little while to kind of get used to what he got himself into.
[00:25:49] John Willkom: So this is where this story gets really interesting and this was, again, a lot of the stuff that I just didn’t know. So Travis has a cousin, his name is Drake who’s he’s a division three basketball coach in Wisconsin. Drake and Travis were the same age. So Drake was a very good high school player.
He played at DePaul University in Chicago, and at the end of Drake’s senior year, he was getting ready for some NBA workouts and to go to the combine. And no matter what he did, he was just always out of breath. And it was hard to even talk to him about this because he’s like, I would go back to the gym and just like run sprints for an hour after workouts, and I still just, I never seemed to feel like I was in good shape. So he goes to a couple of these workouts they’re like five, 10 minutes in and he’s just winded and he comes home and he just basically told himself like, I’m not good enough to play in the NBA. I’m just not.
So he continues to get more and more tired. Eventually he goes in for a kind of a standard medical checkup and he discovered that he’s got Crohn’s disease, which basically means that he was getting like half of the oxygen as a normal person. So Drake loses like 50 pounds and he’s in pretty dire condition to be frank.
At that point he’s been ill for 18 months maybe. And he’s just trying to kind of be a normal person again much less think about playing basketball. And eventually Drake gets better and he goes to play in Italy in a lower level league.
He meets a coach there, his name’s Mayo. And they develop this good relationship. Drake starts to get better and better and eventually Drake is playing in the Italian kind of Sirie League, which is the top league in Italy and one of the best leagues in the world. And so part of Travis’s decision was he had an opportunity to go play for this coach Mayo and Drake had told him, listen, this could be the best coach you’ll ever play, for his system’s perfect for your game.
You’re going to love playing for this guy. So Travis goes and he plays for him for a year and then in a year, Drake signs a contract to play there as well. And so not only is Travis playing on this island, but his cousin is there as well. And so these guys, as you know, kind of best childhood friends, eventually reunite in Italy.
They’re two of the top scorers and pretty much leaders in every statistical category. And they lead this small franchise to be frank, to a title which was kind of unheard of against some of these bigger clubs. So it’s a pretty remarkable story when you just look at how these guys were connected.
Drake’s career was absolutely incredible. I mean, some could argue it was actually better than Travis’s. Drake is the all time leading scorer today in the Italian League. And. It’s pretty special that those guys that got to play together the way that they did and obviously got to share a lot of these memories together for several years.
[00:29:12] Mike Klinzing: Talked earlier about his longevity and the fact that he played for such a long period of time overseas and got an opportunity to really extend his career. When you talked to him about that part of it, what did he say about just, again, the drive and what it took to be able to continue to play for that length of time and not get burned out on the game?
[00:29:32] John Willkom:
So I think it’s really hard. I think one of the toughest parts about playing any sport anywhere, but especially like international basketball players is number one. Most of these contracts are a year long. So there’s not a lot of faith in just financial security there.
Number two, if you’re an American born player and you don’t play well most of those clubs have a pretty quick trigger to replace you. And so one of the things that both Travis and Drake talked about was, cause I’m like, did you have fun? Did you like the lifestyle? Like, tell me about stuff off the court.
And I thought it was fascinating how like, serious both of them took the game of just we were there to do a job, we were there to be the best that we could. They took it super seriously. And now as kind of older men looking back at that, I’m like, do you regret that? Do you wish you would’ve maybe done some more things off the court or traveled more?
And, and both of ’em are kind of like, no, because we wouldn’t have had the careers that we had if we wouldn’t have had that mentality. And so I think that that’s kind of just to bring this full circle, let’s just so interesting about things are supposed to be hard sometimes if you want super ordinary outcomes.
And I think those guys both realized that just because we’re over here and the novelty of playing Italian basketball or drinking wine in the plaza, it was still basketball and they still had to train hard and work hard and take care of their bodies and do the things that they needed to do, especially in their mid thirties to really play at a high level.
[00:31:21] Mike Klinzing: There’s a price for greatness, right? Absolutely. That’s I hear about is you can have. One or the other. If you want to be great at whatever it is that you choose to do, whether it’s basketball or it’s something else, that there are sacrifices that you have to make greatness a lot of times is lonely. You have to put a lot of time in, you have to sacrifice a lot of things.
And there are people who want that. And then there are people who maybe don’t want it. The same. And so you don’t get that same level of achievement when you don’t put in the time and make some sacrifices. And it sounds obviously like throughout his career that he was willing to make those sacrifices for the sacrifices for the game of basketball.
What about the transition from playing into normal life? What’s that in life for? A guy who’s as competitive and basketball’s been so important to him throughout his life, did you talk to him at all about that transition?
[00:32:12] John Willkom: Yeah, Travis turns 41 in March, and him and a buddy opened a sports complex outside of Milwaukee.
It’s called the Facility. And there’s three basketball courts there. There’s a small indoor turf soccer field. There’s a sports performance kind of lab. It’s a pretty amazing facility. And so, that’s ultimately where he is putting his time and energy now.
And but I think one of the great ironies of a lot of this is that I’m like, well, how do you spend your days? Are you doing a lot of, you’re running a pretty big business and I’m sure there’s a lot that goes into that. And yet when you talk to people about him, they’re like, no, he’s never like behind his desk,
He’ll literally be up playing one-on-one with random kids. He’s playing five on five with people all the time. So I think it’s a testament just to who he is as a person. There’s not a lot of people that I think, like me, you, everyone listening to this, like, we love basketball but how many of us love to play basketball as we get older and still play daily?
Probably not a lot of us. So I think it’s pretty cool that he still plays every day and they have they have he is got buddies that come in and they play pretty high level pickup in the mornings sometimes, and younger kids that play in the afternoons, he jumps in there. So he’s a basketball player really to his core which I think is pretty fascinating.
[00:33:50] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, that’s one of those things that, again, Whew. I think about that and I retired now who, it’s been like 10 years since I tore my acl, and that was my last foray I guess. I played one time at a Kent alumni game, and my goal was to score John, and my goal was to not go to the hospital. I accomplished both of those like three or four years ago, but yeah, I’m jealous when I hear about guys still playing just life intrudes at some point. Right. And basketball kind of as important as it’s to me or to you at some point. It kind of takes a backseat and whenever I hear about guys that continue to be able to play and you know, there are obviously some that, I know from, from my former life as a basketball player that are still playing and it’s just, I look, I’m like, man, someday.
I’d like to get back and be able to do that. I think my days are probably done, but it’s good to hear that there, there are guys out that are still getting it done As they, as they get older, it’s still out there on the court. It’s, that’s why we all fell in love back when we were little kids.
That’s what ultimately what it’s all about. When you think about the whole process of doing the book, Who was your favorite person to interview and then who gave you the most insights? I don’t know if that’s the same person, two different people, but who’d you most enjoy talking to and then who gave you the most insight?
[00:35:03] John Willkom: So I think I probably enjoyed talking to Dwyane Wade, just because of the name and who he is. And funny story on that is Travis was like, Dwayne’s going to call you tomorrow. I’m like, okay, so like what time? And he is like, I have no idea. Just going to call you. And I’m thinking, I’ve got a real job and I’m on Zoom calls and my phone’s ringing and I might just have to say, Hey listen, Dwyane Wade’s calling me, I have to go see ya.
But I have this break in the afternoon and I get a text message and it just simply says, Hey John this is the best basketball player Travis Diener has ever played. And I’m like, okay. So I’m like, are you around? You want to chat right now? And then my phone rings and it’s him calling. So that was pretty fun.
I also think some of the stuff in Italy was fascinating to me because this element of European basketball that none of us really like understand unless you kind of live that. And one of the just amazing stories of the book, They’re playing in Belgrade, Serbia against really a good team.
And there’s several former NBA players that are on this Serbian roster. And right before halftime Travis’s team kind of makes this run and they tie the game and the horn goes off and the fans just start throwing anything that they can find onto the court. So you hear stories about this, in some of these countries where like you’re almost as an opposing player, you’re like running to the tunnel just so you don’t get blasted in the face or something.
So his teammates are like running towards the exit. And some of these guys are like I’m like scared for my life and then the one guy I won’t say his name, but he’s like, I’m standing in the tunnel just watching this stuff rain down from the, from the stands and Travis is still at half court, yelling at the fans and he’s like, I just stood there and was like, this guy is just a different animal.
It’s just a different competitive spirit. Every guy on our team is just in fear of what’s going on. He’s just in the moment, you know? And I thought that kind of summed up his career in kind of a weird way of like the tougher things got, the more hostile it was. He seemed to just go to a place where that just brought out the best in him.
[00:37:41] Mike Klinzing: I have a visual of that in my head. I have no idea if it’s accurate or not, but you telling that story definitely gives me a visual of him standing at half court yelling. I don’t think I’ll be able to unsee that visual, even though it may be completely inaccurate. You painted a very good picture.
Let people know where they can get the book. Tell ’em again the title where they can find it, and then I’ll jump back in after that and wrap things up.
[00:38:05] John Willkom: So yeah, the book is No Fear in the Arena and it’s available on Amazon and Barnesandnoble.com and hopefully some more places soon. But yeah, if you’re a basketball fan, and again whether you know who Travis is or don’t know, I think there’s just elements of this story that I think most people are going to really find fascinating because it really is unique in a lot of ways and there was quite a bit of effort that went into getting so many unique perspectives that made it a story that I just don’t think anyone else could tell. So I think people will really enjoy checking it out.
[00:38:40] Mike Klinzing: Please go and check out the book No Fear in the Arena by John Willkom. And if you get a chance to check out his previous work in Walk on Warrior, you’ll enjoy that book as well.
Both of them are extremely well done. Both of them are great reads. If you are a basketball player, fan, coach, you’ll enjoy the behind the scenes look at college basketball, professional basketball, sort of the inside story behind what it takes to be a basketball player at this level that we’re talking about, both with Travis and in John’s previous book to play at the division one level as a college player.
John, can’t thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule this afternoon to join us? Appreciate it, and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks.