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Bentonville West (AR) High School Boys’ Varsity Head Coach Greg White jumps on the pod with Mike for the sixth edition of “4 Quarters with Greg White”. In “4 Quarters” we will discuss four issues in the game of basketball that we believe are important for coaches and players!
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Grab your notebook before you listen to this episode with Greg White from Bentonville West High School in the state of Arkansas.
What We Discuss with Greg White
- First Quarter – What did we learn or start doing during Covid that we will continue to do?
- Second Quarter – How do we help kids deal with failure?
- Third Quarter – Is there an overemphasis on 3’s, especially at the high school level?
- Fourth Quarter – What is the impact of the NCAA granting players an extra year of eligibility?
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THANKS, GREG WHITE
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TRANSCRIPT FOR – 4 QUARTERS WITH GREG WHITE #7 – EPISODE 452
[00:00:00] Greg White: [00:00:00] Podcast is brought to you by head start basketball.
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Hello, and welcome to the hoop peds podcast. Tonight. We are pleased to welcome back to the podcast for his eighth appearance, which I think. Makes him the number one all time guest in appearances, Greg white from Bentonville West high school in the state of Arkansas for four quarters. Number seven, Greg.
Welcome back. It’s good to be back.
Greg White: [00:02:30] Last time we were chatting before, last time we did this, we didn’t know what everything you talk about for a awhile. And so the fact we’ve all wrapped up a season and we got into AA women playing on TV tonight, and men will be back on this weekend. it’s a good time to a good time to be talking basketball.
So thanks for having me guys. I always enjoy it. I always enjoy talking basketball with you guys
Mike Klinzing: [00:02:55] For sure. Yeah. It’s going to be a lot of fun, I think tonight to talk and certainly we feel a [00:03:00] lot better about where things are with the whole pandemic situation than we did back in the fall when we were first talking and seemed like, man, we didn’t even know if we were going to get a season.
And then before we jumped on here and went live. You talked about your team, getting an opportunity to play 31 games. I talked about my son here in the state of Ohio playing his freshman season out and getting to play 22 games, which is the max you can play here. And I think if you would have told any of us back in September, October, that that was what was going to happen.
First of all, we’d have been pretty dubious that that was actually going to take place. And if you’d have told us that it was, we’d be sitting here the same way we are today, which is pretty thankful that we had the opportunity to go through our season and for our kids to be able to participate in play.
And as you said, Greg, we know there’s places in the country where the kids did get an opportunity to play out their season. And it’s, it’s been a tough year. I mean, even the teams that got to play there were certainly challenges, but we made it through in some cases. And it’s always nice to [00:04:00] have basketball back and certainly nice to have March madness back.
And it’s always great to talk hoops
Narrator: [00:04:04] It’s tip-off time with Coach Greg White
Mike Klinzing: [00:04:08] So we are going to jump right into our first quarter. And the first quarter is related to what we’ve just been talking about here off the top. And that is what are some things that we’ve done as coaches during COVID that we think are going to stick around once COVID is over.
So what are some things that you had to do invented needed to do this year with COVID that maybe you didn’t do in the past that you think are going to stick around that are going to be beneficial to you as a coach, to your program moving forward?
Greg White: [00:04:42] It’s, that’s a great, great topic. Um like we’ve talked and we all spent the spring.
I saw it, I saw a tweet from Frankie, Sheila. I believe it was two days ago talking about how great all the basketball looks in the NCAA tournament. It’s because coaches actually had time to [00:05:00] plan. And I think we all did that. I think we all spent the spring in conversations with other coaches and studying.
obviously college coaches, we’re not recruiting high school coaches, weren’t planning summer camps and everyone just kinda got back and kind of clean up, I would say, cleaned up the playbook, you know? And so one of the things we did with COVID was we spent a lot of time trying to grow as a staff and, and teaching our players how to grow outside of just practice time.
And I think that’s going to be beneficial for a lot of people. Um speaking from our program side, we learned that I think every program has a parent meeting. I think everyone does their, their ability to communicate. we found based on kinda everyone else was doing zooms, Google meets, you can save so much time and make it so much more accessible to parents.
by using those, I think we will never have an [00:06:00] in-person one of the, what we call the big parent meeting, where everyone comes in one room. we’ll probably just do that some just for the comradery. And honestly, just because we couldn’t last year, but I think anytime we’re going to pass information we, we had, we were doing weekly parent meetings with players, even if they’re only 30 minutes, but they were to, to share what we were, what we were discussing what was coming.
And so that was a big thing for us, just learning how to save time and, and how to keep our parents involved and keep connected when, when we weren’t connected. You know, that was the thing that we were, we were all searching for that personal connection because when you get sent home for the first week as much as we all love our families, they got real tiresome for all of us.
We’re all trying to find a way to reconnect. And so I think that’s one of the ways that I think that’s something that needs to stay for everybody is [00:07:00] you know, the parent communication with Google meets. You know, w we joke about why every meeting we’ve had that could have been an email. We’ve all seen that we can do it now.
And that’s a big thing for us with communicating with our parents, for sure.
Mike Klinzing: [00:07:15] Were you doing those weekly meetings before, or was that something that you just added because it was simply easier to do once you kind of mastered the Google meet technology?
Greg White: [00:07:25] I think it was something we added because we were still in the situation thankfully here in Arkansas, we opened up in July.
We were able to start practicing in small groups and then large group. But we, I think back then, even we still didn’t believe we were going to play. I think we were just, we were at the point, we were doing things because we felt like we were supposed to be doing them when we were trying to return to some form of a structure.
And then we started realizing we need, we were trying to communicate as much as we could. And one of the things You guys, you guys know Mike neighbors is a good [00:08:00] friend of mine. And we talked a lot during this time that it was frustrating for coaches because we’re always used to operating in the know.
And there were so many more people that knew more than we did at the time. And so for us, we felt that if we got information, we wanted to share it with our parents as quick as we could. And so Google meets and zoom became the easiest way to do that. And then you started realizing that you could connect people on their own time.
You know, you can record them. I mean, I’ve always been a proponent. We’ve always recorded our we’ve always sorry about that. We’ve always recorded our meetings. It’s funny. That’s Mike Neighbors calling, right? Nope. They haven’t jumped on Patrick. We always are. You know, we talked about just trying to communicate and keep things going like that, but we’ve always recorded our meetings.
And this is a great way to do that now, because Google does it for you. And so if a parent misses a [00:09:00] meeting, you can host it say information, you need to say it’s all recorded. It’s all saved. It covers your rare in, in the situation. but it also makes it for people can be a part when they’re not there.
And that was what I think we learned the most about COVID was you can still be connected even though you’re not together.
Mike Klinzing: [00:09:21] Yeah. I agree with you. I think it became much easier to be able to connect with people. And as you said, I know one of the things that we talked about and we’ve talked about it, I think on a couple of episodes of four quarters, when you talked about your parent meeting and you always recommend, Hey, videotape that thing.
So that. There’s proof out there that, Hey, we talked about this and you can see it here. It is right here. Here’s me talking about this particular standard or this particular aspect of our program. And so for you to say that I didn’t know about it just is patently untrue because here it is on video.
And so to be able to have the opportunity to do that, and obviously as we all become more comfortable with the tools, especially as teachers, you [00:10:00] had no choice, but to become comfortable with the tools that you needed to teach virtually in some cases and all those things, it just makes it so much easier to be able to do those types of meetings, then try and do it all in person, which is almost impossible.
Greg White: [00:10:15] Yeah. And you know, everyone’s got busy lives and people are juggling family. And I always feel bad when a parent would have to apologize for missing a meeting. Well, now they don’t have to miss it and they get to see it. And so it was a great thing. I think one of the biggest things I learned with COVID because.
We our players were so apart for so long and they I can talk about what we did throughout our season. Some of the, some of the measures we took to make sure we played, but I had to lighten up a little bit in practice, meaning our players didn’t have that social time. They didn’t have the walking to the, they didn’t have the walk into class to talk to somebody.
Um because everything, everything was so structured and meant [00:11:00] everything was in place to make sure we had a season. We kind of started missing out on the fact that they’re kids still. And so if we would make time and practice just to our water break may have went from a minute and 30 to four minutes, just so they could sit and talk.
And if you caught them talking in the line and a drill or laughing and you had to let it eat. I started to realize they needed that more than you to me talking about something. And so. We tried to add more of a social aspect to our practices as well. which I think is good.
You know what I mean? That’s why they’re there. They’re there, they’re fun. They’re there to try to win games, but they’re also there because it’s their friends. And so we added that social aspect and a really, really important, I think for some of us to lighten up a little bit on that stuff. And that was something important to us.
And then finally just being grateful. Um we w like I said, we played 31 31 games this year. [00:12:00] I think it was a total of 180 days. we were, we were involved in basketball from practice to the end and just the gratefulness not being, not complaining about being tired at practice we had those days and there were days I had the bad lit and our players had to battle it, but.
When you think about our friends that were in States that didn’t get to play. We told our guys and we never knew the fear of w could we get shut down again at any moment? Could just, the gratefulness of getting to play basketball was such a, a peaceful feeling for this season that yeah.
You know, you hate when your season ends, but what a triumph for those young men. I told them, I said you played a season when a lot of people, our world didn’t want you to play. And when most people didn’t think you would play it, we did it. And so that was a winning season for us, most definitely.
Jason Sunkle: Do you, Mike Greg, do you think that the huddle [00:13:00] camps and the live streaming stuff’s going to stay going forward? Or do you think,
Greg White: [00:13:06] I mean, I think that was one of the, that was like one of my first thought of this. Like one of the, this topic, I was the kind of thing that I was thinking of was the most valuable thing, because like, you were able to, anyone was able to watch a game, like even if they couldn’t go to the game anyone was able to watch games this year, which hasn’t necessarily been always true.
So I think that’s really going to be valuable going forward in my opinion. Yeah. You know, we’ve always thought we’ve been very fortunate. our athletic director, Scott Pasmore is such a forward thinker. We’ve been streaming games for five years and so when this hat does hit, it wasn’t a switch for us.
It was just let’s increase our capability. We started streaming more of our freshmen games and things like that. but it was, I love, I mean, I love it. I mean, speaking from the athletic side, if you can sell an ad we’re going to do it. I [00:14:00] think it’s going to increase I love the fact that now grim and watch a game from three States away.
I think that’s important. I think it’s awesome for our kids and I think it’s great for our fans too, that when they were disconnected and couldn’t be there because of the restrictions for attendance, they were still a part. I was still getting text messages about, Hey, what’s your game tonight.
but I’ll tell you what I really believe as we return more to our structure and our, our way of bouncing back when I think gyms are going to be packed, I think Friday night football in the fall, there’s going to be bigger crowds that we’ve ever seen or imagined. I hope there are any way because I think the kids deserve it, but I think our communities deserve it.
And so I’m excited about that. We’ve had changes in our restrictions here out of saw the big tins taken away for spring sports. I mean, [00:15:00] when the weather, Oh, it’s a little different weather in big 10 country. It is in the South, but I can’t wait to go sit at a baseball game. I can’t wait to go to a track, meet, watch kids, compete, go to soccer, just getting that feeling and I don’t try to just word normalcy because I, I, that’s kind of the fallback thing, but just the structure and stability. It’s the word opera for, it’s just the ability of our community stability of athletics. That’s, what’s making everything seem right. Um we’ve got two great tournaments going on and CWA, I wish people could be in the crowd, but if you’re watching exactly it’s compete and it’s that means something to them and everyone’s tuned in their TV and yelling and rooting, and it’s just.
This is the stability. Sports gives a community and you guys know this, that’s what we’re missing. and that’s what we want to get back.
Mike Klinzing: [00:15:51] I agree. I think it’s going to be really exciting to see and have the opportunity to go back and watch games live. And I got to go and sit in my son’s freshman games, but then [00:16:00] I had to leave the gym.
So I didn’t get to see the JV team. I didn’t get to see the varsity team, but I could watch it to Jason’s point. I could watch it streaming. And the nice part for me about the streaming side of it was for a long time. My parents live in Florida and so they don’t get to see my kids really played much of anything.
They might see some grainy video that I shot on the fall, or they might get to see some photos, whatever, but to be able to watch. An actual live stream event. I just sent my dad a text and say, Hey dad games at five o’clock today. If you want to check it out. And then some days he’d be like, sure, I’m going to watch it at five.
But then other days he’d be like, well, mom and I are heading out to dinner and we’ll watch it later on tonight. And the fact that you can, the fact that you can watch it whenever you want. And obviously there’s no chance of him running across the score and spoiling the game and knowing what the outcome is before he watches it.
it was just another great way for the, to be connected and for them to be connected to their grandson, it’s just, it’s something that wasn’t [00:17:00] capable. Uh you look back in the past and it just wasn’t possible. And you guys were a little bit ahead of the curve, but for us, this was the first year that that was really made available.
And it’s a little bit weird. What I found to be the weirdest thing was that there are no more kids. Standing up in the stands, fumbling with the fumbling, with the video camera and trying to figure out how to make it work and making their innocuous comments about the other people who they’re filming in the games.
That’s the one thing I’ll probably miss. I’m sure we all have a good story or two about that. Of you’re sitting there watching the film with your team and all of a sudden the manager or the player from one of the other teams that’s filming, make some comment about, Hey, this guy it’s always, that was always, that was always entertainment, both as a player and as a coach, I always looked forward to those miscues by the film crew.
Greg White: [00:17:48] Exactly. Those are, it was funny how we kind of got spoiled by it because we were all in the mode. Like we just want to play, we just want to play well, then [00:18:00] it became green competition kicked in and we were wanting to get that edge. And we were there were some leagues in our area that wouldn’t allow you to bring your filmer because you know, they were trying to social distance and stuff.
Well, then it became, well, what happens is when that one camera dies or if the kid messes up and so. It was funny on the coaching side to see how we went from I’ll do anything in the world to make sure our teams play to the minute they said you’re were playing. It went right back to I’ll do anything it takes to win.
And that was when I told everybody I knew we were back is I knew we were back when everyone quit being the guy that all we’ll do, whatever. We’re just so happy to play that it went back to, well, now my team is getting there, but I’ll tell you this, maybe on the outside or on this, you guys can weigh in, but I don’t want to go back to post game handshakes. We did the point wave this [00:19:00] year and I loved it. You know,
Mike Klinzing: [00:19:02] I am Greg. I couldn’t be more in agreement with you on this. I could not be more in agreement. I think there’s more, the trouble that comes from post-game handshakes in my opinion, then they’re worth..
Greg White: [00:19:13] You guys know this Brad’s been a guest on here, Brad Stamps. We coach together. He’s one of my brothers. We’d love each other. they beat us on the last second shot this year. Totally my fault. I messed that game up where we lose at the buzzer. And as much as I love him, he was able to handle it with his team.
And I was able to get my kids out of there, there was none of that strain because their kids had a big shot. Their kids rushed the floor. They’re jumping up and down and you guys have been there. I’ve been on both sides of it. It’s an awkward feeling to make your kids quit, celebrating, to go shake hands.
And it’s an awkward, it’s even worse to stand here and watch and wait for them. So we were able to obviously me and Brad connected after the game, we talked for a long time, but it was just. You know, and it’s just that that’s when all the bad stuff. So [00:20:00] I’m pushing, I’m pushing for the FIBA model let’s line up, let’s shake hands with everybody before the game.
You can actually mean, Hey, I hope you have a great game. Then you go out and hit each other in the mouth, and then you point your wave and you leave. Because that way and I’ve had people tell me, you just, again, that’s not a good sportsmanship. Sportsmanships how you play. It’s not a ritual. It’s how you play and how you respect the game, respect your opponent.
Jason Sunkle: You know, the law. I mean, I ain’t going on. That’s a totally different subject. Two middle school girls. The only thing it happens, everything happens on the floor, happens on the floor, but the second you go to shake hands at the end of the game someone’s going to say someone, someone’s going to call someone a nasty name.
Someone’s going to do something they’re going to, and then it just becomes a whole thing. And I couldn’t, I couldn’t agree with you more, Greg. I don’t want to shake hands at the end of the games.
Mike Klinzing: [00:20:48] Yeah, it’s so nice. It’s it takes what is normally a. Two minute procedure that is just fraught with worry as a coach of you hope that you’ve got your team to the point where [00:21:00] they’re not going to do anything, but I, the number of times that I’ve had players of mine, come back to me after the handshake line and say number seven, pulled their hand back from everybody when they were walking through the line, or this person said X, Y, or Z to three of our players, or I know I’ve had at least one time where a player said that another player spit on them.
Like, I don’t want to deal with that. There’s and there’s no, as you said, Greg, it’s a ritual. It doesn’t really mean anything in terms of sportsmanship. And it’s a really difficult thing to ask. And again, you can take it down to eight year olds up to high school seniors. It’s a really difficult thing to ask a kid who has just won a game to temper themselves down and walk through that line.
And at the same time for a kid who’s just lost. It’s very difficult for them to walk through that line. And shake the hand and put on a semi happy face, at least as they walked through that line. It’s to me in a [00:22:00] lot of ways, it’s disingenuous to the true emotions that are going on. And I just think, Hey, why are we teaching kids to suppress that?
Just so we can touch hands. It’s much easier for me to point and wave to the other coach. Hey, good game. The two teams can kind of wave at each other if they really want to. Otherwise let’s just move to our respective locker rooms or to our respective hallways or wherever it is that we’re headed and avoid all the potential pitfalls that go with shaking hands.
I couldn’t agree with you more on that one.
Greg White: [00:22:28] Yeah, I hope that’s the one thing that sticks. Our state with state tournament game this year, we’re Conway salty long and said coach, one of the best men on the planet. my son, Evan plays salty knows him. Obviously Evan took it hard, hit it, got knocked out of the game. After the game I talked to salty, salty grabs Evan. He gives him a hug because he has a relationship with him just like Brad has relationship with Evan, just like. But you, I think if you start seeing more of the genuine and not the forest, that’s where it’s going to grow. That’s where you see the two players, [00:23:00] come together and say grow five and a hug and talk about how they battle each other, because that’s where the respect comes from.
But when you force it, it loses the, it loses the sense of it’s often it’s not authentic. I’m fortunate to do this. So I think we get away from it, make it authentic. if that’s the one thing COVID gives us, we’ll take it is let’s get back to authentic sportsmanship, not a ritual
Mike Klinzing: [00:23:24] agreed a hundred percent.
All right. Let’s wrap up quarter. Number one.
Narrator: [00:23:30] The first quarter is in the books
Mike Klinzing: [00:23:32] Let’s move to quarter Number two. Our second question is how do we help kids to deal with failure? So as coaches, what is our role and responsibility in helping kids navigate when they fail?
Greg White: [00:23:48] I think it’s, it all comes back to being honest and telling the kids the truth.
I think the more we’re truthful with them that it makes everything easier. It makes success easier. [00:24:00] it makes failure easier. We’ve we had players that we felt couldn’t handle success and meaning they would go out and have a great game. And then the next game they would come in and not know any competence is a bad thing, but they would come in with a false sense of confidence and struggle.
Well then all of a sudden now they’re bilingual is bad and it was because it wasn’t, they couldn’t handle the failures and we never taught them how to handle success. And I think that’s the key to help a kid with failure is teaching them to handle success, explaining to them why they were successful.
Sometimes you just gotta be honest. You want you to be successful because you weren’t on the scouting report the night before you. Don’t why you’re struggling now because you’re on a scanning report. you know why you were successful because this team’s not real good. You know, and, and, but you know, why you’re not successful now is because you’re trying to get away with the same stuff.
You know, I can’t make the same pass against the five, 10 gardens. I can’t get to six, four garden. so I think the key to failure [00:25:00] is you gotta teach them how to, how to succeed in why, why they’re succeeding and how to sustain success. I mean, we’re the, world’s worst. I’m on it. You’re on it.
Everybody’s on it. I couldn’t stand it this season when I would see it. And luckily none of my players did this. but there were players that I would see tough loss, but I had, I had 12 points. Well, no, like, come on, that’s not teaching you how to handle failure. That’s trying to put the sunshine inside the thunderstorm, like your team loss.
You know, we can’t talk about that, but like, it’s one of those things that you can’t like, I can’t teach you how to fail if I hadn’t taught you how to succeed yet. And some of these guys, when they see failure, it becomes an excuse. It becomes. A blame game. and it just comes up back to, like, we talked all the time about being truthful.
You got to tell players the truth, where they’re at, where they stand, what they’re good at, what they’re bad at, how they can get better. And then they’ve got to accept it. [00:26:00] And that’s one of the keys to success is the acceptance of it. Um I can I’ll use my son for example, Hayden, my oldest son, he knew he, he had more of a self-awareness than any player I’ve ever coached.
And the problem with that is I didn’t give him a chance to do that because I worried about outsiders watching me play him. I should’ve played him more. We both talk about that. coaches have told me that, no, because he was such a great talent, but he had such self-awareness. my youngest son, Evan has the same flaw as the same things that he has such an awareness of himself, he doesn’t get, find himself in trouble very much like he doesn’t find himself trying to accomplish more and.
I think self-awareness is that key on failure too, is you got to know if we’re going to help kids avoid failure, which I don’t think we need to help them avoid it. I think we have to teach them how to learn from it and how to use failure. not as a motivation, but as a learning [00:27:00] lesson is they’ve gotta be aware of the situation.
And again, self-awareness comes from telling kids the truth.
Mike Klinzing: [00:27:06] Do you think process goes along with that because as I hear you talking, what comes into my mind is you mentioned, well, you can get away with this against a five, 10 kid, but you can’t get away with it against a six, four kid. And ultimately what you want kids to do is to be able to say, Hey, if you play the game the right way, if you practice the right way, if you do some of the things that we talk about day in and day out as a part of our program, and you live up to those standards every day, you’re going to end up having some success.
And you’re also going to have some failure because at some point everybody fails regardless of how good your process is. But knowing that if you stick with that process and you’re aware of where you are in the process like you described, then ultimately you’re going to end up having success. And that success can be defined differently obviously by different people.
And it’s not always defined by the scoreboard. You could play the number one [00:28:00] ranked team in the state, and you may follow all your processes and you may do everything play as hard as you possibly can. And you still may come up short on the scoreboard. Conversely, you could play the worst game of your life against a terrible team and win that game.
And which one of those should you be happier with? The reality is you should be happier with the loss where you played as hard as you possibly could, and did all the things to put yourself in a position to win. Then you should plan against the crummy team and. I just think that that process piece of it goes right along with what you said with the truth, telling and with being self-aware, to me, all three of those pieces kind of work in harmony to help kids to understand how to deal with failure.
Greg White: [00:28:37] Yeah. And I think the coach has side of it when you know, what you were talking about right there. That that’s a, what we call resulting from, uh my friend, Annie Duke wrote thinking of bets short, the book, how to decide and Kimmy coaches get caught up in the results. Um did we win great?
Did we play awful? Who cares? You know, and like most of the good coaches are, we’re never going to complain about a win. I’m never going to cry about a [00:29:00] win, but we want to get better winning. And, uh if people are looking for an off season book, if they haven’t read it yet I would any has had to decide it, it saved my career along with thinking of bets, but this year, like above all years and a year when COVID, when you have no clue what’s coming it teaches you how to make decisions to teach you how to plan things out.
You know, I use the example talk, going back to failure. You know, when, when you ask somebody, if a kid shoots the ball, what’s going to happen. Well, immediately, most people think, Oh, he’s going to make or miss. Okay, well, that’s a 50 50. That those are not really good odds in our business. Mo you know, w we may want to think we’re going into a game that’s 50, 50, but we hope we’re going into a game.
And it’s, we have a 70, 30 chance of winning. Sometimes we know going into a game, we’ve got a 30% chance of winning, but what, what that does, what this book taught me and what it’s taught others. And as what you just said, like, it’s a process [00:30:00] of when a kid shoots a basketball, well, he makes it that’s great.
Well, what if he misses? And we get the rebound, that’s still good. What if he misses and gets fouled? That’s really good. What if he makes it and gets fouled? That’s really, really good. What if he misses it? The ball goes out of bounds off of them, but we get the ball back. That’s still good. What if he misses it?
They get the rebuilt. That’s the only bad thing that can happen. That’s six things I’ve just mentioned and only one of those is bad. So it’s not a 50, 50 on a shot if you think of it in those terms. So a lot of people put their happiness, fill a winner, lose failing, succeeding on yes or no. It’s a one or two options.
And I’ve learned that it’s never one or two options. There are. I mean, Mike talks about this when he was first coaching and they were in high school, that if there’s nights that if I can win one quarter, that’s a success for this program. That was the point he was at those places. So teaching kids that success and failure, isn’t 50 50, but it can be five [00:31:00] out of six are positive.
That’s a really good thing. So go ahead and take the shot because five or six things good are for us. And so I feel that’s one of the keys, like you mentioned, with process, the explanation and the philosophy behind. Teaching kids how to do a failure is what we’re able to do as coaches. And that’s going to make their lives better.
It’s going to make our teams better, but more importantly, it makes the individual better.
Mike Klinzing: [00:31:25] How much of it do you think Greg is you as a coach or as a coaching staff modeling what it’s like to handle failure? Because I think that when I think about myself, whether it’s as a player, I think of myself as a coach.
I think one of the things that’s difficult to do is to manage your emotions without regard to the scoreboard. And that’s really, really tough to do where maybe you played a great game and you played as hard as you could. You did everything you executed to the best of your ability. And for whatever reason, [00:32:00] you still came up short.
And obviously as competitors, we all want to win games. And so when we don’t, how do we. How do we model for kids? What that looks like? Because in theory, we failed in our mission to win on the scoreboard. And yet in a lot of ways we didn’t fail. If we followed our process, we did all the things that we want to do.
So how do we make sure that we’re modeling that, that loss isn’t a failure? Is there anything that you specifically do to just remind yourself that, Hey, I’ve got to be a role model for kids in terms of how we react to losing a game on the screen?
Greg White: [00:32:34] I think this year taught me more than anything. just going back to what we talked about with gratitude.
one of the things that I adopted and adapted for our program from from Mike neighbors is this, I don’t do a post-game talk. we all grew up if you got beat and went in there and then you got beat down by your coach for 10 minutes I don’t win or lose. I don’t go in and talk long [00:33:00] two minutes, max.
obviously the asking the year’s a little different when you’re telling the seniors by, um games, we lost, we walked in, Hey, we gotta get better at this. Anybody hurt? Okay. Let’s get out of here. Now. Here’s one of the reasons we were so fast too. And it worked this year. Um we were all in that close contact warning.
We were all afraid that I was going to get a call, that player a tested positive, and he was sitting beside player BCD. So we cut down our talks because, and here’s the thing too. They don’t want to hear it. if you go on and read, when you talk about books, you should be bringing his coaches and all that.
But this generation is so wired to quick information. they don’t want to hear that stuff I mean, they don’t, they don’t need to hear it. And we’ve all been a coach before, after a, when you go in and you’re high five and jumping up and down and player Jason over here, mad cause he didn’t get to play, you know?
And so I, it was something that Mike talked a long time about I didn’t know if I could pull it off. I’d love it. Now I’m out and I’m [00:34:00] not in there three minutes. go in. Hey, good job. Keep your heads up, go in and say, Hey, good job. Nice Lynn. Here’s where we’re practicing is anybody hurt? You know, let’s get to a trainer, let’s get that fixed, get stuff, let’s roll.
And just knowing that they weren’t it’s okay to be upset and you get beat. But like you said, I was so gracious with every game we finished that I, yeah, we wanted to win them all. We lost 13 times this year. I can go back and think of four of them off the top of my head that I’d love to play again.
but the way we handled the defeats were gotta get better. You gotta move on. You gotta get better. Gotta move on, fix this, move on. and I think that changed now. I think I got three technicals this year. I got one going after official because I thought a player got a nun and I got an, a player, got a technical, I thought it was uncalled for.
I said some magic words. I got one. I got one later on in the year. Cause I thought I got flopped on a [00:35:00] three-point call. I yelled across the floor of the official and that took two steps on the court. Got whacked. That’s fine. I think maybe only two. I don’t know if I got 30 minutes if I did it, doesn’t stand out to me.
but just explain the players to how we gotta react to situations. this year more than anything, my big word for myself and our program was react because there are so many times that we can reacted maybe how we want it to. but not the way we should. from a professional standpoint, from a leadership standpoint and from a profile standpoint And so I think react was the main word for us this year, learn how to react.
Uh that’s who you are, your reactions are, who you are, we’ve all seen it. seeing I’ve seen coaches go, I watched them either in film or in person, whatever, and they get to be little and official and players, and then they want to first, next thing they’re on Twitter posting a prayer, [00:36:00] you know, of scripture are there.
And I’m like, I get that. But like, it’s all got to mirror each other, you know? And so I think that that’s the big thing is just how you react to things is who you are. That’s who you really are. It’s how you react. and we tried to teach our guys in our self to, to how to control our reactions. And that was tough.
I know stress this year was high for everyone. There was a lot of uncertainty at all times. but I, I felt going back again to clean it up on how you teach those. It’s your reaction is who you are. And that’s what we try to make sure people saw out of our staff now of our players is how we reacted to things, whether they were good or bad.
And that’s who we truly are.
Mike Klinzing: [00:36:45] I think to go along with that, I think players can sniff out a fraud. And if you’re reacting one way and then you come back in and you preach something else in a moment where you’re not reacting to something that might be a situation that is [00:37:00] adverse players are going to be like, okay, you can tell me this all you want, but I just watched you during the game, do X, Y, and Z, or say X, Y, and Z, to me, in a situation where if you were following the words that you’re telling me now, during this moment of calm, this wouldn’t have happened.
And so I think players can sniff that out. And to me, when you’re talking about helping kids to deal with failure, you’re talking about what we said here. You’re talking about. Being able to tell players the truth. You’re talking about making sure that you are reacting in such a way that it reflects who you truly are.
And when you do those things, I think ultimately you’re going to be able to help players deal with success. And with that, we will wrap up the second quarter and we will move to the halftime break.
Narrator: [00:37:50] That was the halftime buzzer. Let’s take a quick break,
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And it is now time for our third quarter. And I think this is going to be an interesting discussion because the question is, is there an overemphasis on the three-pointer, especially in the high school game and Greg, I know you have a strong feeling about this. On one side and I may end up just trying to play devil’s advocate on the other [00:39:00] side.
So go ahead and give us your position on the importance of the three pointer and where we are in terms of utilizing it in the game today.
Greg White: [00:39:08] So I’m a big proponent of the three. and my reasons are always based off what I have, what you have. We all heard again, I’m going to tie in thinking a bit what, from Annie Duke on this, we’ve all heard.
It’s a game of chess and it’s not a game of chess is a game of chess. We would all have the same players, the same pieces with the same abilities. And so the three point shot has become the equalizer. It’s become, it gives you a chance. It gives, to use a boxing term. It gives you a sluggers chance.
You know, the way I played this season gave us a chance in every ball game. Doesn’t mean we won every game, but we had a chance to win. Because of the style we played. So we played 31 games. I wish I could say a thousand, but I can’t, because I don’t want to lie to you. We shot, [00:40:00] we took 999 three this year.
No, we made 300 of them. now had we made three Oh five, three 10, our record changes, obviously. so we average nine rate threes, a game. We had games that we made 17 out of 31. We had games that we made four and a 31. And what I had to finally explain to our players was we’re playing the match. We’re not if we came out and we, obviously we replay 17, we make 17 threes.
We win that ball game. And the very next game we went forward 30. We still won, but our kids were down in the locker room because man, we played mad. We shot bad. We didn’t shoot bad. We shot the number. We shot the average. I mean, if you take the two games and combine them, we shot our season average. And so it, it kinda taught our kids to play free, to play to enjoy the game.
I think it was frustrating for [00:41:00] people to watch that didn’t understand it. I had coaches, coaching, friends of mine that watch us play early in the year. And they’re like they were down on me. They’re like, Oh, he just, he doesn’t care. He doesn’t care how they’re playing. He’s given up. And then by the time we got to the state tournament, they were like, this is how you have to play.
We figured that out, our staff figured it out. this is how we have to play. wa one of the reasons I love the three, obviously it’s a 50% increase from one foot from one step back. It’s a 50% increase. We don’t teach shot, fake pull up, mid-range pull up jumper. We teach shot fake sidestep three, because we want to keep the, keep the same point value.
We have guys that can shoot off the dribble off the three, meaning they can come down on a fast break and stop and shoot a three versus going in for a layup. And a lot of that, we talked about philosophy. You’re teaching your player hopefully to pick the ball up, to stop the ball. A lot of times at two, on [00:42:00] one situation, we’ve all been in those two on one drills, where do we tell them?
Well, we tend to go to the rim and wait to make a decision. So you go and go the rim. You don’t block out cause we’re shooting it. and so we kind of made up, we, we follow the Makey wrong for being right. You know, whatever you’re teaching on defense. We teach anti on offense and taking a lot of threes.
So it’s one of the things that we did. Surprisingly, the teams that gave us the most trouble played as a two-three zone. No one that we would shoot a lot of threes. The teams that played us a zone gave us the most trouble. And I think it was because our kids here, you got to shoot them out on his own. And so we put more pressure on ourselves to make shots.
but that was one of the problems that we faced was we struggled. In that spot. If you, if you went in a zone, it kinda messed with us a little bit. So I think it’s a great thing for high school basketball. I think it’s a great thing for college basketball. if you watch teams that are making more threes or winning the games and that was kind of how we told [00:43:00] our kids.
We never felt that we we thankfully got to play the shot clock this year in Arkansas. And so we never felt we were out of the game. our style allowed us to win games again and allowed us to lose some games that we shouldn’t have. or I say that people say we shouldn’t have on paper. everybody we scheduled this year was good enough to beat us.
And so I, I I’m totally for it. I think it’s a key. I think it increases, obviously increase your score, increase your skill level. We didn’t have as many charges if you’re watching college basketball right now. we’ve talked about this if they would change the mechanic from Mike, Tyson’s punch out to make an, a heart center, a halo they’d quit calling charges, but they like being able to do the punch out.
But when you’re shooting three, each I get a lot of charges.
Mike Klinzing: [00:43:51] Dude.
Jason Sunkle: [00:43:51] You just got Mike, you just got Mike with a Mike Tyson punch out. I don’t know if he knows that reference. Mike, do you know that?
Mike Klinzing: [00:43:55] Absolutely. Listen, I don’t listen. I mean, I’m not a [00:44:00] video game guy, but I’m aware of Mike Tyson punch out, sir. So I got, I got that one.
That one I got. Okay. I just want to make sure because Mike did his patented
Greg White: [00:44:09] laugh after a think like pretending, like he knew what you
Mike Klinzing: [00:44:12] Were talking about. So I don’t know. I did, I did, I did know that I do have a pen, so I had the ones, I don’t know, but that was what I did know.
Greg White: [00:44:20] So yeah. I mean it’s, if you research it and look at it, I think it’s, I think shooting the three is, I mean, there’s been very few people change the game of basketball.
wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Michael Jordan. Steph Curry changed basketball. And so if you watch our film not only did we shoot a lot of threes, we don’t, we try to shoot 22, 23 feet. Now I love the NBA. I love their spacing. And everybody said, you can’t play at the NBA and you can’t put the NBA plays in high school because there’s no illegal defense there isn’t you’re right.
But if my guys shooting from 23 feet, you’re up to [00:45:00] come out and guarding. And so that opens up the floor more and that creates longer close outs and that creates more driving opportunities. And so the three has changed again. you know what I’m, what it’s funny now is the hot thing was when you, and of course Dirk Nowitzki those guys ruined basketball cause they were seven footers.
I could shoot threes and then everybody wants to be a seventh or can shoot three few, you know how impressive. A a true post player is like right now, like the they’re like a unicorn when a guy says always some foot can step out big deal. I want it simpler. I can drop step and shoot a jump book.
You know, I mean, we all fell in love watching Luca Garza this year for Iowa. and anyhow, now we get at Lloyd’s Chicago might be the most valuable player in the tournament because he can score it the block. And, and so until you have those, I mean, I can teach any player [00:46:00] from, from five foot four, just seven foot two to shoot a three.
I can’t teach a lot of guys to be post player. And so the three has gotta become universal and something that we all can do. And I think you just, it’s gotta be, it’s a main weapon. and I, and I think it’s here to stay for sure. I mean, I think it just going to keep increasing, um like I say, we shot nine or 99 this year.
I kind of wish I was around 30 a game. I was wanting to be in the 35 to 40. but that, that matched our makeup. Like we, our biggest player was six for this year. The team that is one, our state tournament as a seven footer. I don’t have those, so we’re not all playing chess, you know? And so I’ve got to do what I’ve got to do.
and, and I believe that’s what every coach should be doing is what’s best for you. And what’s best for us was shoot a thousand threes this year. So,
Mike Klinzing: [00:46:58] All right. So I want to [00:47:00] just throw two scenarios at you to just get your thoughts and your takes on them. The one is happened a couple of weeks ago, and this is sort of as an old school guy, when it’s a three on one and you have the Denver nuggets where they’re coming down, they need a two point, or I think they needed a two point or to win the game.
I think they were now one. And I know Michael Porter was one of the guys that. Instead of just going through the basket for what would have been pretty much a hundred percent certain up or dunk instead guys are flaring out behind the three-point line. And that’s something that me as, again, an old guy who hasn’t played in the game, the way it’s being played today, it still seems to me that if it’s a three on one that a two point layup in that case is more valuable than the attempted three.
And I get the math over the long portion of the game. But whenever I see guys fanning out to the [00:48:00] three on a three on one break, I always, I always cringe a little bit. So what’s your take, how do you, how do you approach that with your team? Or is that something that happens so rarely that it’s not even really worth teaching or preparing for, if that makes any sense?
Greg White: [00:48:16] No And I get what you’re saying. I mean, we talked about trying to get the Try and get the best we want a score, but for us, we would be fine with that three because it’s probably the most open three we’re going to get this guy report on us was you had to run him off the line. I mean, even our player that played our five, who was six, three and a half, six, four, maybe 200 pounds.
He could, he made threes. And so all, I mean, we told kids and dry off, if you can’t shoot, you can’t play here. Like it. We want to be the best shooting team in the state of Arkansas. And that’s kind of what we push for because that’s something we can control. I can’t control how big the players are that move [00:49:00] into my district.
I can control how good of a shooting team we are. And so I’m with you three on one would have been we’re probably going to have one guy going to the room if he chooses, if he stops and shoots a three we’re fine with that. And if it’s the right person, if it’s not, people know where to go, people are gonna run, but we’re probably gonna take a three there too, because I mean, you’re thinking sure, too, I’m thinking of at three, again, going back to how to, how to decide in my mind, I’m thinking I take a shot at a three, I got two rebounders versus one, or you better.
I’m going to get it to eventually, or I might even get a rebound kick out another three, which is the easiest three to make. So you’re thinking two points, I’m thinking three points. And, but I’m also thinking two attempts. And so that, that just kind of changes. You know, I don’t ever want to be like a prisoner of analytics.
I just finished a book called the data. Detective route teaches you how to look at numbers and what to believe, what not to believe, how to use it for [00:50:00] yourself. Um we can all coaches will tell you they’re their numbers, tell you what you want them to tell you. but I think that. The game has changed so much that you don’t get very many clean options at a three that’s one of the best times of tickets on a fast break, because it is a clean chance.
Mike Klinzing: [00:50:20] That makes sense. I get it. I get it. It’s just every time I see it, just from my own experiences, I still just, I just look at it. I’m like, I’m like, Oh, it’s gotta be a lay up. I just, I don’t, I don’t understand. And yet you see, you see so many teams doing it repeatedly over and over and over and over again.
And I think it’s just one of those things that I don’t know if I’ll ever get used to it, but I guess I’ve come to understand it.
Greg White: [00:50:46]. So think about how we were taught. I haven’t done a three man weave in probably 10 years because I never, I started thinking about how many times did I ever pass and got behind the gap now I’ll do it.
And now we’d [00:51:00] run some half-court sets. And we do it in a shooting drill where we do what we call pitches and we dribble and pitch, and I stopped doing the 11 man fast break, which is a three on two fast break. A lot of people did. one of the reasons we stopped working on it, we went to the progressive fast break, which is it’s controlled, but it’s not predictable is you think about the 300, two fast breaks.
We were always taught with the two defenders stacked. One of them nail one at the rim balls passes the wing the bottom guy at first pass. So that’s how we were taught. Bottom guy has first pass. Top guy was going to drop. You were giving up a shot every time doing that. And you’re going to give up an elbow jump shot or a law for a layup.
So last time we did it, we switched it where the bottom guy you just stay put. And so I’m going to ball, they pass it. I’m going to run the guard him. I’m not giving up a layout. Well now changed how you’re thinking on offense. And so we, we just started wanting to be ahead of the curve and thinking watching a lot of European stuff and for whatever reason they’re ahead of us.
I mean, I don’t [00:52:00] know why, like. No, we obviously have better athletes when USA teams dominated. But the coaching in Europe has been amazing to follow. some guys I become friends with and pick their brain constantly and it just came to no go back. And our topic was what gave us a chance was being a three point shooting team.
And there were nights that we knew again, we came out, we had games of set. We made 17, 16, 13, 12. We had a game we made for we’ve, we’ve been here. We opened the school up five years ago. We’ve had 141 games we’ve made a three point shot and at least 104 and 140 of them. We’ve only had one game we didn’t make a three. And that game, we went over eight and won by 35. But, but you know, it’s like, and I just know that because I looked it up and the player that went over five, I always reminded that he broke the streak we would be perfect, but that was [00:53:00] one of those things that when we all here control what you can control, I can control how good of a shooting team we are.
Can’t control how big we are. can’t really control how good a defensive team we are. Cause the way out, sometimes I’m going to defend the officials won’t let me, but I can control how of a shooting team that we are by the amount of time we spent shooting in the off season in the season. So that’s my take on a three point shot.
and I think it’s the best weapon you have. I got one more thing to throw at you. Okay.
Mike Klinzing: [00:53:33] Something else that I see a lot of, and you see it at the collegiate level. And I see it a lot at the high school level where a team is running, could be maybe a four out one in, could be a five out. And what I see it devolve into is one player has the ball.
At the three point line, they make a move to go one-on-one maybe they penetrate the other four or three guys in the [00:54:00] perimeter are stagnant. And then that player who drives in and kicks it to the next guy. And if he doesn’t have a shot and he gets his turn to go play one-on-one and if he doesn’t have a shot that he kicks it to the next guy and there’s very little imagination or movement off ball to create better opportunities.
And I think when you see better teams play that are better coached, you see that you still have that dribble drive. You still have the, the penetration, but you have the other players on the floor doing more than just standing and watching. And I think that’s something that I see too often where a four out one in or a five out just becomes.
Players taking turns one-on-one and trying to kick out to somebody for three. Do you see that a little bit in Arkansas? Do you see that when you watch games and what’s your take on, how do you combat that? If I’m, if I’m running like a four out one and offense.
Greg White: [00:54:57] We played five out that year. We played a little [00:55:00] bit of four out – one in and it does happen one of the hardest things to do on offense sustained.
And we have to tell our guys at quick, quick, creeping up to the ball, stay where you’re at staying there, because if I stand my defender’s stance and now we try to always have action away from the ball, but again, there they stand. They watch if I’m in a, here’s the thing, too, if I’m moving, it’s hard for me to, to know I’m going to get a shot and we want our guys thinking catching shoot and catch and catch and plays what we would tell them.
So we would try to run action that would create a bigger gap and try to create help. It helped spots. You know, make you make again, make you wrong for being right. We want you to help on defense if we could score. but yeah, sometimes it, anyway, we were okay with it. There were times I would complain about how stagnant we were, but we were scoring 68 points, a game, 70 points, a game by being, because you know, we [00:56:00] work on catch and shoot a lot.
We work on penetrate, get your feet wet in the paint and pass, um kick drives and kicks. and sometimes I require standing and we would tell our guys, if we put you in the right spot and you stay in, it’s okay. If you find yourself in one of these spots, you need to move. we want them to stand in the corner.
You know, we, we don’t want you to stay in at the top of the key. We don’t want you to stay in the forty-five. We want you to clear the nail defender and move somewhere. But those were all things that, I mean, we’d battle But whatever for whatever reason with the emergence of skill guys and individual training, the dribble became a big thing let’s dribble through 95 cones and that that’s kind of caused some of that, but we talked about just attacking either with a shot or attack to create for your teammate.
And so that’s one of the downfalls of shooting so many threes, there is a lot of standing, [00:57:00] but there’s also the fact that those are the ones you’re going to make of the stained steel threes. And so it’s kind of that, I think we’re going to be better about it next year, because we, we spent this year really working on, I think we better at creating more of that movement that you’re talking about.
But again, it’s it’s kind of the nature of the beast. If you’re gonna rely on the three, you’re going to be prepared to shoot the three. So.
Mike Klinzing: [00:57:27] Yeah. And as you said, I think it is a good point that the best, highest percentage shot, especially when you’re talking about the high school level is a kid who’s going to catch and shoot, and is already in position where they’re getting their feet underneath them.
They’re prepared to shoot. It’s not somebody who’s coming off a pin down screen and squaring up in the air in motion and trying to get the shot off a defender that’s chasing that. you’re trying to create easier looks for your teammates. And it always strikes me though, when I see teams playing that way, that I’m always like, man, if they could just get a little bit of movement on the weak [00:58:00] side to be able to not allow that defense to just.
Be stagnant and be in the be in the lane ready to help. I think they could generate so much more out. And then of course, now there’s such an emphasis with the ball screen. So you have, especially if you’re running a four out one in, you saw it, like when Ohio state played Illinois in the big 10 championship game, and those two teams just the big man just stepped out from the block and set a screen to try to get the garden advantage.
And then that guard gets a little advantage. Now you’ve got to help and boom, now you’re kicking out for threes and it was just kind of amazing to watch both teams kind of doing the same thing over and over and over again, and still creating good looks from it because it’s just screen roll. That’s why the screen roll has become such an important part of the game because it’s so difficult to defend and it just creates such an advantage for the offense and all you need when you have good skilled players is you get the guy who’s the ball handler with a little bit of an advantage, and that guy can not create maybe the first advantage doesn’t create the shot, but then the second guy has a little bit easier time penetrating.
And then before you know it, you created the [00:59:00] ability to bounce the ball around the perimeter and create the shot that you want. And in all likelihood, it’s probably going to be a three.
Greg White: [00:59:05] Right. You know, and again, that’s like, I mean, as much as basketball is evolving and stuff, it’s still the same. You know what I mean?
There’s so much stuff still looks the same still as the same, but for us. And I think a lot of teams that, that it’s that swing it gives me a puncher’s chance. I think it gives everybody that, and you’re watching these games coming up this next weekend. You know, it’s going to come down to guys that can make shots because the game so physical inside now.
And I think it’s just, it’s the equalizer. It gives everybody a chance.
Mike Klinzing: [00:59:40] Absolutely. All right. That is the end of quarter number three.
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Narrator: [01:00:31] All right, listeners, it’s time for the fourth quarter
Mike Klinzing: [01:00:33] It is time for the fourth quarter. And our last question is the extra year of eligibility that the NCAA has granted basketball players for next season. What is going to be the impact on you as a high school coach and high school players, as they look to transition into their freshman year of college next season.
[01:01:00] Greg White: [01:01:00] The first thing I’ll say is I think they got it wrong. I think it should have been given to the players in the NCAA tournament last year that got there. I think they should have went ahead and had the selection show for the men and the women. and then, and then granted those players a chance to come back that’s who lost out.
I know the players, if fear played under distress, a lot of no fans couldn’t go and see their family. I know it’s tough on them, but I think we messed up by not letting those people come back. My other idea was have those teams selected. If those teams didn’t get in this year, they were in this year, make it 120 18 tournament for one year.
You know what I mean? We took away. And I don’t want to get into all that stuff. And we took away a lot of chance for people. And now it’s just kind of a snowball effect. It’s just rolling downhill because we’re giving players a year back and a lot of those players aren’t going to stay where they were at.
I think if you’re going to use [01:02:00] the COVID year, you should use it at the university that just paid for your education for a year. I think that’s where you should spend it. but you know, as, as those players are going to transfer, I think, I think the number was 800 today in the men’s transfer portal.
If you’re a high school senior and have an offer, you better take it because there that’s, who’s going to suffer the high school, senior, the Juco player looking to move. those are the ones that are going to miss out because as the transfer model becomes more and more, I think you’ll see less.
A mid-major division one’s offering high school kids. I think you’ll see the mid-majors are going after and power five transfers transfer down because they’re not happy with their minutes. it’s going to open up that Pandora’s box of how do we ever get control of it again? And I don’t know what the answer is, but [01:03:00] that it’s really affecting the high school recruiting for sure.
I mean you don’t hear as many first of all, there’s no, McDonald’s All-American game. There’s none of those games going, they’re still doing the award, but outside of the schools that had already made their recruiting, like, you didn’t hear it from here. Many people from the 20, 21 class getting offers a lot of them are going to reclassify, which I don’t even understand that. and go to a prep school or a post-grad school state of Kentucky, you said, give high school players a year back, or what are you gonna do with them? You know what I mean? Are you going to, what are they going to do for class like asleep until two o’clock and then go to practice?
Mike Klinzing: That’s what they’re going to
Greg White: [01:03:39] do. And it’s just an unfortunate thing. Um I I’d love the state of Arkansas born and raised here for so many reasons. the fact that we, we played a full football season we just played a full basketball season, baseball, softball, track soccer going, um our governor is is a [01:04:00] Hooper.
I mean, he’s, he’s played basketball and RGM, his grandsons are great players. He loves the game of basketball. He loves her state leather students that gave us a chance. And that’s all I think we all wanted. I mean, again, you guys talked to people across the country. I do too. There were guys that didn’t get a chance to play.
And I hate that because I worry about the mental aspect that it has on the student athletes and. No. So many people are off. If, if missing a basketball season is bad for their mental health, I, I feel bad for kids and we all know that there’s kids that go to bed. They go to school because of basketball. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with that.
I mean, and so I don’t know what this year is going to do. I’m happy that some of those players get a year back. I talked to the friend of mine that’s an NBA scout, or we, we were, we talked about some of the players that aren’t performing. Is it because they know they got a free year. Some of the people that you thought were going to be big time, [01:05:00] college players this year that didn’t have the numbers or didn’t have the years because they know that the shoe doesn’t count.
Do they know they’re coming back? When’s the last time? I don’t know if it’s been in our lifetime that Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, aren’t really the cream of the crop. You know, there there’s things going on that don’t, that really didn’t make sense to a lot of us. And again, I know COVID was crazy. I know it was real.
but that the giving the full year back and it not being that same university, that kind of bugs me a little bit. but I hate it. You know, I hate it for the kids. Last year, we had high school seniors that had their track season pulled from baseball, softball. Didn’t get to play NCAA tournament, not getting to happen last year.
You know, those are the kids I think, deserved a redo, not people that got to play this year. And I mean, we could get all into the political [01:06:00] climate of our country and everybody, how everybody feels different places. Um I would talk to friends in California, man. We don’t know if we’re going to get to play.
And I’m like, we’re, we’ve been practicing and playing like crazy, you know? And, and I hate that because. I think we allowed, I know COVID was real. I mean, but I think we allowed our political mind to get involved in it so much that we took away opportunities from young, from young people. now in your grant, the incident has given some of that back, but I think the ones that we hurt the most are the ones that had it completely ripped from him.
Mike Klinzing: [01:06:37] Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more with that. You know, the kids that here in the state of Ohio spring sports were wiped out last year. So if I’m a baseball player, I’m a track athlete and I’ve prepared my whole life too for my senior year. And now that’s gone and that’s taken away. That hurts. I mean that, because we talk about it all the time, you [01:07:00] don’t get those back and when you don’t get it back, that’s tough.
You’re going to, I mean, those kids are going to carry that with them for their entire life, that they didn’t get an opportunity to play. Whereas you think about this year, NCAA athletes, maybe they played a shortened schedule. Maybe there was things that were difficult and challenging and there certainly were, but the vast majority of NCAA basketball players this year got to play some type of a season.
And yeah, maybe it wasn’t what they all hoped and wished that it would be, but they did get to play. And so I think you’re right in the standpoint of last year, spring, anybody that was impacted there, that was probably the group that really, and truly deserved to have that extra year. And I do think that when you talk about all the players in the transfer portal, and you talk about how that impact of the transfer rules and players not having to sit out as they go from one school to another.
And I get that, you’re trying to balance [01:08:00] the playing field because the argument always is, well, coaches can leave anytime they want and they go to their next school and then they’re ready to coach right away. And meanwhile, the kids that they left behind, if they want to go and go to a new program, they got to sit out.
So I get all the rules, but. I had a coach tell me college coach say to me that he foresees a time where college coaches don’t even recruit high school players anymore. And he goes, there’s going to be programs that they’re not going to look at high school players anymore because they’re going to go.
And they’re going to look at either players above or below their level that have already proven themselves in the college level. So why would I not, why would I go and recruit a high school player when I can recruit a guy who’s already proven himself in high school, and you’re going to have a lot of kids that go in as freshmen and they’re saying, Hey, I I just averaged, I just averaged 13 points a game at a mid-major division one school.
I bet I can go and play in a power five conference now. And there’s gonna be a lot of power, five conference coaches [01:09:00] that agree with them. I’m going to take those players. And I think it’s going to be really hard to build a mid-major powerhouse program because. The good kids that normally you would kind of find as diamonds in the rough, under the radar kids, and then you bring them in, you develop them over the course of four years.
And by the time they’re seniors and they’re experienced and they’ve played together and now you’re ready to make a Cinderella run, run in the tournament. I think that’s going to be harder and harder to do because those really good players are going to leave to go be the seventh or eighth man, maybe on a power five conference school.
Greg White: [01:09:32] So it is March 24th, 2021. I’m gonna make a prediction in the next I was spending the next 25 years. You’ll see the end of high school sports. I think what you’ll have is more of a European model to where you’ll have the NBA teams, you’ll have a G league team and then you’ll have club teams where [01:10:00] they basically take over AAU.
Cause they use broke. We know that it’s, it became a money maker and it became less of a talent creator. And so what you’ll see is you’ll see major markets that’ll start and then you’ll start seeing some satellite clubs. And so there’ll be no more high school athletics. They’ll be high school football survive, high school, basketball will go away.
you’ll have kids in point on clubs. Everything else will be recreational NCAA. It’ll be if you’re actually going for a degree that it won’t be the big money maker than it is now, because it will become a direct competitor with NBA, the NBA G league, and U eighteens, like FIBA will become the major markets.
I think COVID, that’s one thing COVID did the Hurd high school athletics is so many States. we, I mean, we’ve heard people talk here. I mean, we had a surplus this year in travel. Why? Well, we didn’t have spring sports. And so someone that wasn’t an athlete that doesn’t have kids that are athletes, just [01:11:00] thinking.
Do we have, do we really need them? Because we just went a year without them, had they shut down football in the South basketball. I think it would have happened within 10 years that you would see high school athletics go away because we’ve all found out that you can still be educated over a screen.
We’ve all found out that there’s things that can happen. and I think this transfer portal, I think that the extra year, I think COVID, I think all this there’s someone out there that thinks a lot more crazier than I do. that’s actually has the backing for it that this is that this will be a direction.
You see it, that it’ll become more, that basketball will become a club entity that it’ll kids in Arkansas may play for the grizzly 16 U or the Oklahoma city thunder 16. We put you in these clubs and we [01:12:00] try to funnel our way up through our G league team.
And then now you become a pro and you play on our pro team. if you don’t play any of those, that’s great. Go get a degree, cause you’re going to be a banker, but you can still play basketball for the university of Arkansas. It’s just not going to be on the level that the top five players the top 55 players in the country every year are probably not going to start be playing college basketball.
They’re going to go to their pro level. And that may not be a bad thing. Maybe that cleans up college basketball. Maybe that changes things that you let the top 50 kids go turn pro and start making money. but you know, the always the downfall is when they, what are they going to do after basketball?
And so I just, I worry, I worry that we’ve made, I’ve worried that we’ve made changes to radicle this year. I mean, I’m, I’m, I’m glad that incidentally. Is giving some kids a year back. I think they gave their own. So I think it should’ve been the spring sports. I think it should have been the [01:13:00] players that qualified for the NCAA tournament.
Um the argument, there was a little, why wouldn’t everybody? Well, everybody sees didn’t get ended last year. You know, it was, there was, you should have had the selection. Sunday, those 68 men, 1864 women’s team. That’s who you guys get to all come back. And then the argument would have been well now you’ve made it unfair.
We did for a year, we made it unfair for a year. We gave those, those 64 women’s team and those 68 minutes team, we gave them what they had taken away from them. And guess what? They’re going to graduate the next year. It’s going to be over. But now what we’ve done is we’ve impacted an entire graduating class of high school, seniors by logged Jamie in front of them.
There’s nowhere for them to go. And because there’s nowhere for them to go this year, it’s going to impact the 2010 22 class. It’s gonna impact the 2023 class because. We’re going to set that model of why do I want to recruit an 18 year old Kia when I can go get a 21 year old transfer [01:14:00] student that’s already been there and played against competition.
So I think it’s going to change the landscape.
Mike Klinzing: [01:14:05] Yeah, it’s going to be very interesting. I love the point you made about the academies. I heard an interview with Mark Cuban and I can’t remember. It was probably about a year ago. And he talked about that exact system that you talked about where NBA teams are at the top of that hierarchy.
And then you go down to the G league and then you have their basketball academies that are modeled after that European style club, where you have multiple age groups and multiple teams and multiple levels. And you have professional coaches that are working with those kids. And obviously you can still have them in school and they’re going to school, but.
The primary focus of what they’re doing outside of their daily educational curriculum is focused on basketball and they have professional coaches who are there just to coach basketball. They’re not they’re teaching social studies during the day they’re, they’re working on basketball skills. And I do think that at some point the NBA [01:15:00] has, they have a, they have a definitive interest in making that a reality because it provides them with that farm system that basketball really has truly never had besides the college game.
And it’s another way for them to be able to generate revenue control their product. And as you’ve said, you were time. So we’ve had this discussion on a bunch of fourth quarters, the AAU system currently as its constituents at see Jason, I did it again. Constituted. So I did that last night, too, Greg. I said the word for some reason, instead of constantly Mike creating his own words.
I think just, I think I just might have to go with situated and just make that a word and that will make me sound smarter anyway. Uh I just think that the NBA eventually is going to get that done is going to make it happen and what the timeframe is. I’m not sure, but you look at this year, three of the top, or sorry, two of the top five projected NBA draft picks are playing in the G league right now.
And I think that number is only going to increase, especially if [01:16:00] those guys do end up getting drafted in the top five and then they end up ultimately having success in the league. Once you get a couple of pioneers to kind of take that leap, it’s going to be a lot easier to convince the next round of guys that look, why do you want to go sit in class and be responsible for all that?
When you can just go and. Play basketball and get paid to do it. And it’s going to become a compelling argument for a lot of players who are at that level when they start having the choice between going to play college basketball, which as much as college basketball, and I’m loving watching the tournament this year.
But college basketball is not the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. The quality of the players isn’t there, the familiarity with the teams isn’t there. It’s just not the same. The tournament itself is a spectacle, but the teams and the familiarity that people have with the players, isn’t the same. And I think players are going to eventually look at that high school.
Kids are going to say, why do I want to go [01:17:00] and play college basketball when I can just go right to the G league? And to your point, if what we’re talking about comes to fruition, they may make that decision when they’re 11, as opposed to waiting until they’re 18 to make that decision. Right.
Greg White: [01:17:14] There’s some good and there’s some bad to it.
You know? I mean, if I could change anything we, like I said, we were lucky enough to get a shot talk, pass in Arkansas. If I could change anything, we would all play with women’s the NCAA women’s roles. They’re by far the best 20 minute halves and NCAA men. It’s it’s archaic. I mean, Nope. What happens if they pick up their seventh foul with 14 minutes in the first half, I’m not watching that like we’re a, we’re a fan based entertainment.
Yes. It’s basketball and yes, we want, but in the end, it’s about fans and entertainment. That’s why the NBA is entertaining. Cause it’s a 24 second shot clock. It’s there’s, it’s a, it’s an entertainment thing. but they’re also, they’re they’re finding out in 2019, the top four individual NBA awards were [01:18:00] foreign born players.
We’ve got the best athletes. We don’t have the best players. And, and Mark Cuban is ahead of that. He knows that John could show Walter it’s on that. You know, that’s why there’s been such a push on the skill training and more time. I just think we’re going to see a major change in the landscape of high school basketball.
And I think a lot of it’s pushed by what’s going to happen there with the, with the seniors getting that year back. it totally makes sense to me in, in a sport. Why would I take an 18 year old when I can have one? You know? And, and it’s not, it’s not every level and that’s where one of the I, one of the confusions and I’m bad about it.
I think we all are. It’s when you think college, everybody thinks like you see on television division, one division, three division twos in AI, they’re all going to do it. Right. and keep doing it, period. It’s an education-based thing. Division one has gotten towards educate it’s athlete, student, not student [01:19:00] athlete it’s.
It’s really kind of changed some of that on the mint side I I’m, I’m a big fan of women’s basketball. I think they, they continue to do it right. And change and trailblaze with rules. but it’s just, I don’t know, there’s something something’s going to come from this that we’ll see a lot of change.
And I think the schools that are ahead and recruiting this year won’t affect on the schools that we’re behind. You’ll see them kind of in a panic mode, but definitely we’re going to see a change in how transfers are going to be taken ahead of high school seniors. And just kinda, kinda, I guess I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say anxious.
I’m just gonna sit back and watch and see what it looks like to your point.
Mike Klinzing: [01:19:48] I think that the entire basketball landscape, when we look back on this, whether it’s 10 years from now or 25 years from now, I do think that there’s going to be major changes in the system [01:20:00] and hopefully. Those changes end up being for the betterment of the game.
There’s obviously going to be downsides to whatever system ends up being put in place, but we kind of know the devil’s in the details right now with the way that the system is set up and there’s there’s issues and there’s problems. And there’s things that I think detract from the quality of the game, the quality of the product that we’re able to put out on the floor and how we’re developing our players.
And you’ve said it a couple of times that European players are developed in a different way. And I think they’re more fundamentally sound. We have better athletes, which again, we have a bigger pool of those athletes to, to dive into, to be able to extract the players, to play at the highest level. So because our pool of talent is bigger, it doesn’t necessarily show up that.
The lack of fundamentals across the board. But I think if we could take care of that lack of fundamentals and figure out a better system for teaching the game at the younger levels, I think we’d ultimately end up [01:21:00] with a better product.
Greg White: [01:21:01] No, I agree with that. And you know, and there’s I mean, you guys know this, the beautiful thing about basketball is when it’s played at a really high level, I mean, it’s so much fun to watch whether it’s men or women.
The cool thing about basketball is there’s a kid in my PE class that doesn’t want to play on a high school team. Doesn’t want it, but he just wants to go and shoot hoops. That’s that’s great too. There’s gotta be there’s a place for that. The problem we ran into was the accessibility of basketball is where we found our summers became just polluted is the word I want to use.
You know, it used to be when we were growing up, if you played on the summer team and you were good, like you had to get on that. Now you can play on six different summer teams. Because it’s all paid to play and that’s where the greens come involved. And I don’t know if you guys saw Kendrick Perkins on Twitter and that was great.
Mike Klinzing: [01:21:55] I mean, that’s great.
Greg White: [01:21:56] That was great. When it, when an NBA guy says it it’s bad enough when [01:22:00] it’s a, I mean, come on, Greg, you don’t think Greg,
Mike Klinzing: [01:22:02] You don’t think it’s okay for fans to just go fighting in the middle of a tournament. Come on, Greg. Where’s your sense of hospitality?
Greg White: [01:22:09] Come on. When it was a high school coach or Mark and saw a complaint about it.
Oh, you just, don’t like AAU man. I love good summer basketball there. The peach jam is one of the top events in our country, but it’s not all the peach jam. And that’s what we’ve tried to tell people is like, don’t go play in a back gym somewhere on a Saturday, just because you think it’s not a new basketball.
That’s just pay to play. Go play in a park. And when finally in NBA that comes out and says, look, this is wrong. You know, maybe now it’ll wake some people up, but that’s that we’ll save that for episode eight.
Mike Klinzing: [01:22:48] I think we’ve just thrown everybody into that same pool. And the kid that you described in your PE class it’s just wants to shoot around is almost forced to play in the [01:23:00] same environment as the kid who is a high school, varsity starter.
And you throw all those kids into the same mix because recreation basketball, for lack of a better way of saying it has gone away or been devalued or been looked upon, as you know, you don’t want to go do that. and then the opportunity to play pickup basketball in a lot of places has been taken away simply because courts aren’t there or people have taken down nets or gyms are closed, whatever it might be.
And I just think that there has to be. A better way of tiering the system so that the kid who just wants to play for fun has a place to play. And the kids who want to take the game more seriously, have a place to play. And I think problems come when you cross mingle those two. And you’re not sure what your objective is when you’re a parent or you’re a player, and you’re getting involved with these various things.
And then we could do a whole nother podcast on the, [01:24:00] I don’t even know what you call it. The unrealistic expectations of parents when it comes to their own child’s basketball ability and teams, and then fighting and taking things way too seriously. It just, it gets ridiculous. So I think that’s a good place to end it.
And that will be the end of the fourth quarter.
Greg White: [01:24:23] That’s game man.
Mike Klinzing: [01:24:25] Greg as always. We cannot thank you enough for taking the time to, Hey, we literally, I want to
Greg White: [01:24:30] note, we literally went like exactly how long a game is an hour and 20 minutes, the high school basketball game. What do you think that’s about?
Mike Klinzing: [01:24:37] Right, right, right. We’re in good shape. We did. We did pretty well.
We did pretty well. And that was fun. I think we covered a lot of great things for coaches out there to listen and be able to, to think about. And I always, whenever we have a conversation and it always leaves me with things to think about and consider, and hopefully for our coaches that are out there in the audience, you feel the same way.
So, Greg, again, thanks. Appreciate it. [01:25:00] Let people know where they can reach out to you, find you. And then I’ll jump back in and wrap up this four quarters number seven.
Greg White: [01:25:07] Yeah. So easiest way to get me is on Twitter @GregWhite32. you can Mike, my cell phone sorry. My email. Everything is on there.
If you shoot me a direct message and we’ll talk, I’ll answer those,we’ll try to connect get a call, something set up together. I have a website three from the corner.com. I usually just talk about basketball stuff on there, whether it’s being a dad, coach, uh things that pop up, things like that.
So, Hey, I do want to give a quick little awesome, like this guy has become my hero this week. Paul, hi from Abilene Christian. if you guys watch their game, he was the guy where they were calling the big energy guy on the bench. I put, I had talked about CBS sports said, [01:26:00] you know, zero minutes played Ben chap, infinity, and those were the guys.
I had a tweet out three days ago. I talked about four years of showing up everyday to practice for years and making his team better and teams that win big games when the, because of guys like this,not everybody’s leading score, but everybody can be a great teammate. And Paul was a great teammate.
Here’s, what’s cool, man. this, this is what gives you hope for basketball and this I’ll leave it with you. I put that out three days ago, 1.7 million people have seen that tweet. and the cool thing is there’s been 11,000 likes, and I know that doesn’t mean you agree with it, but it means it spreads out and I’ve had coaches from every sport you can imagine contact me or send me a message about man.
That’s awesome. And I actually reached out to Paul, got his number, was able to tell him, thank you for impact and you know, more than just Evelyn, Christian. [01:27:00] so. There’s people out there doing it the right way. and that’s what we’ve all got to keep remembering and keep spreading the spreading the good news of the game and how it catches lives and changes things.
Mike Klinzing: [01:27:13] So, absolutely. I think that’s a great lesson for players to remember. I think it’s a great lesson for coaches to remember that yeah. That kid’s contribution, didn’t show up in the box score, but you better believe that if he’s that hooked up on the bench during a game that he’s bringing it in practice and he’s making his teammates better and he’s the kind of kid that any coach wants in their team.
And as you said, I think that’s a great way to end it and to everyone out there, we appreciate you checking out four quarters. Number seven with Greg white. And we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks!
Narrator: [01:27:47] Thanks for listening to the Hoop Heads Podcast presented by Head Start Basketball. [01:28:00]