TERRELL IVORY – PHILLIPS ACADEMY ANDOVER (MA) BOYS’ BASKETBALL HEAD COACH – EPISODE 833

Website – https://athletics.andover.edu/teams/bbav

Email – tivory@andover.edu

Twitter – @PABoysBball

Terrell Ivory is the boys’ basketball head coach at Phillips Academy Andover in Massachusetts.  He has served as the head coach since 2012, taking over the program from which he graduated in 2000. 

TI began his coaching career at Blair Academy as an assistant basketball coach and math teacher.  After leaving Blair, he served three seasons as an assistant coach at Davidson where he worked for his college coach, Bob McKillop and had the opportunity to work with Steph Curry.  From there, Ivory moved on to Colgate University where he worked for Matt Langel for one season before returning to Andover.

TI played his college basketball at Davidson where he was a four year letterman who played in 67 games.  He played professionally in England for one season before beginning his coaching career.

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Make sure you have pen and paper as you listen to this episode with Terrell Ivory, boys’ basketball head coach at Phillips Academy Andover in the state of Massachusetts.

What We Discuss with Terrell Ivory

• Playing basketball with his older brother growing up in North Carolina
• Why he learned that passing was a great skill on the playground
• The story of how his older brother Titus ended up at Phillips Academy Andover
• Following in his brother’s footsteps at Andover
• How he ended up at Davidson playing for Coach Bob McKillop
• Earning his spot on the team as a walk-on by playing hard to the point of being annoying
• “He’s teaching us a lot about basketball. But he’s also teaches us a lot about life.”
• His experience playing in the NCAA Tournament for Davidson
• Looking up to Coach McKillop as a mentor
• His one season playing overseas in England
• “I want to play, but I know he cares about me and I know that he cares about me and he cares about the team and maybe we think I’m better than I am, but he’s doing what’s best for this team and here’s what I know, right? He’s going to be there for me for a long time after I graduate from Davidson. He’s always going to help me out.”
• His first coaching job as an assistant at Blair Academy for Joe Mantegna
• Returning to Davidson as an assistant coach
• Asking questions is required to learn
• Make players feel like they matter
• Coaching Steph Curry at Davidson
• “Not only was he more talented than anybody ever at Davidson, but I think he worked harder than anybody at Davidson.”
• His one year at Colgate and why Andover was the only job he would have left for
• Helping kids change their life trajectory
• Making his practices similar to a college practice to prepare players for the next level
• “If you really want to play at this level, this is what you have to do. This is the work you have to put in. This is a kind of the type of commitment that you have to have.”
• “Helping my kids get better and helping them reach their goals and their dreams is everything.”
• Connecting alums to the current program
• The car accident in 2019 that nearly took his life
• Seeing challenges as opportunities

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THANKS, TERRELL IVORY

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TRANSCRIPT FOR TERRELL IVORY – PHILLIPS ACADEMY ANDOVER (MA) BOYS’ BASKETBALL HEAD COACH – EPISODE 833

[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here with my co host Jason Sunkle tonight and we are pleased to be joined by Terrell Ivory, head boys basketball coach at Andover Academy. TI, welcome to the Hoop Heads Pod.

[00:00:14] Terrell Ivory: Thank you so much for having me guys.

[00:00:17] Mike Klinzing: Thrilled to have you on.

Looking forward to diving into all the things that you’ve been able to do in your basketball career. Let’s start by going back in time to when you were a kid. Tell me a little bit about some of your first experiences with the game.

[00:00:28] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, it’s one of those things. I think about it all the time. I’ve been playing as long as I can remember.

I was lucky enough to have parents who sort of knew the value of being involved in athletics. I had an older brother who’s three years older than me that I He’s a mentor. I look up to him. He’s an amazing person and a really good he was a really good student athlete that I looked up to.

So I was, I think I was playing pick up a ball and you’re just messing around. And then I think my first organized sort of. Time playing basketball was around five years old, but we had a, a hoop in our hallway, infamous hoop in, in our hallway . And my parents were, were okay with us making noise because we were doing something constructive.

And we were banging into the walls and trying to, we couldn’t dribble because we didn’t it was carpet in the hallway, but we could, we could try to dunk on each other or shoot jumpers with. And then you had to sort of shoot with, with a, with no arc because it would hit the ceiling.

So I just remember doing that. So I’ve been playing basketball for, for a long time and been, been involved in, in a lot of different sports for a long time, but basketball was always my first love.

[00:01:44] Mike Klinzing: When you think about. yourself as you get a little bit older and you’re getting towards the high school years.

How did you go about as you took the game more seriously? What did you do to get better and improve? How’d you work on your game?

[00:01:59] Terrell Ivory: So I talked about my older brother. He was three years older than me. And, and as you as a younger sibling, you always want to You know, hang out with them be friends with their friend.

So I think playing against older people, playing against his friends, playing against really good competition always helped make me better. And then it was having a sibling meant like you always had. So I rebounded for him. And I got a chance to sort of watch him. Sort of figure out how he could get better and get shots up and things like that.

And we played a lot of 21 eventually we graduated from the hoop in our house and the hallway to, to a hoop in our my dad put up a, a makeshift hoop in the backyard. And so we would play out there, a lot of 21, and, and we had, I lived in a, a, a great neighborhood. And we also people would come over to our house and play, but we also would go to the to the park and play every once in a while.

And it was, it was, it was sort of what old people talk about when you go to the park. And if you don’t win, you got to sit out. And so that, that, that was a great experience for me. But I also had great coaches too, right? I play AAU. And at the time I was growing up, there were, there were, there were two teams, right?

It was, it was like, The essence of AAU, right? The Amateur Athletic Union. There were two teams in Charlotte. And, and it was the Charlotte Sonics or the Charlotte, they were the Charlotte Sonics first, and then they became the Charlotte Nets. And then they were the enemy cause I played for the Charlotte Royals.

And those were the two teams in Charlotte. And so my brother played for the Royals. So I ended up playing for the Royals. And that was sort of my journey and that’s how we got better. Like in order to make that team, I knew I had to work. really hard on my game outside of like the AAU season, including like playing for whatever league teams I was playing for, club teams I was playing for, and then you know, the YMCA and all those things.

So I play, I try to play as much basketball as possible and outside of like organized basketball, but also in those leagues that my parents were sort of. Lucky that I was so lucky that they, they wanted me to play in those leagues and sign me up for everything in camps and things like that.

[00:04:21] Mike Klinzing: Obviously things were a lot different in terms of working with trainers, which didn’t exist back in the day when you’re talking about when you were playing. And, and so you think about obviously playing pickup. And as you said, I’m one of those old guys that finally remembers the days of. And I always like to say that for me, I always feel like I grew up in an era that I’m glad I did.

And not that I wouldn’t have enjoyed the way the game is today, but I really enjoyed the way I grew up where I was either working on my game kind of by myself or I was Playing pickup basketball or just like you, AAU was, I mean, I don’t even know if we called it AAU back when I was playing in the late eighties, early nineties, but it was the same thing.

Like here in Cleveland, there were maybe two teams of kids that were playing AAU basketball. And so it was a completely different feel than what it’s like today. So how much did you balance out working on your game, maybe with your brother by yourself doing, I guess. Skill development for lack of a better word.

You probably weren’t calling it then, but just working on your game by yourself versus playing and doing some pickup and the AAU stuff that you already described. How’d you balance those two?

[00:05:29] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. Cause I don’t want to sound like an old guy who says that I walked up, walked back and forth up a hill through snow and all that stuff.

It was, and I’m not saying one is better than the other, right? It’s different. And as a coach now as a mentor now, as a person who sort of exists in the basketball world, right? Like you got to sort of deal with the way things are now, but it just was different back in the day.

Like we. We played video games, but it wasn’t like it is now, right? I think I had a Nintendo or a Sega Genesis and, and, and, or something like that. So I played video games and stuff like that, but like, it just wasn’t the way it was now, cause you had to plug it into a wall, right? Like it was different now, like kids just have.

People just have so much more access to different things in a good way, but those things can also be distractions. There was, there was much fewer distractions when I was growing up, right? And much there, there was a lot of times, right? My parents were like, You got to get out of the house. You got to go do something.

And it got to the point where they weren’t begging me to get out of the house anymore because I knew like, all right, this is I got to go, I got to get, I got to stay busy. I did my, and, and my parents were like educators, right? And so academics always came first and I was my brother and I were both good students, but once we got our work done like the majority of the time I spent if it wasn’t.

You know, was, was playing, was playing sports and mostly basketball. Right. And so even when my brother wasn’t around and he was around most of the time, like I knew I could just go I was throwing the ball to myself. Like you spin it to yourself and you work on, you work on your game, you do some dribbling stuff.

And we didn’t we didn’t have a gun. Right. And I love the gun. I think it’s great. But when my kid, like the gun at my school. We had to get it fixed. And my kids would complain. I’m like, coach, you can’t go shoot. I was like, yes, you can go shoot. Just get somebody else to rebound for you.

And then you rebound for them. Right. Like there, there are ways for you to get shots up without like a machine throwing you the ball back. And so like, and, and a lot of it was, it, there wasn’t as much skill development, like you said. A lot of it was just. You were playing, right? And then again, at the park and one of my coaches, Coach McKillop talked about this all the time.

But like at the park, right, that’s, that’s where you sort of got better. Right. And there was, there was pressure on you. To win because depending on, and there were a lot of people at the park, mostly on the weekends, at least. So, so if you, if you didn’t win, right, you set out. And if you, so, because I was smaller, like I had to figure out a way to stay on the court.

And for me playing against all of the players, right. If I tried to score. Then, then I wasn’t going to be as effective as if I tried to like my teammates score, right? So that, that sort of and I played college basketball and I’m not saying I was. You know like I know who I am.

Right. But I did play a pretty high level college basketball. But I always remember I was like you know, when I wanted to, when I was playing with older people, like scoring, wasn’t how I was going to stay on the court. It was, it was, it was making sure that other people got the ball. Right. Even so, even when I lost, they were like, I want him to pass me the ball so I was trying to always figure out winning was the, was the best way to stay on the court. Right. But you weren’t going to always win. And so another way to stay on the court, I figured out pretty early on playing against better competition and older guys was to make sure that I made them happy by passing them the ball.

[00:09:33] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, that is so true. I mean, it’s funny. It’s one of the things that I think kids do miss out on today is. You don’t ever have to kind of figure out, well, what’s my role and how do I get myself onto this team? And I always tell the story, like when I first started going to the park near my house, when I was a kid, I was probably, I don’t know, maybe 13, something like that.

And so I made sure that I was always. To get on the court, I was always the first guy there. So when the first 10 guys rolled up, I was in that first game and then I was always the last guy to leave. So I could always get in that last game. And then in between, obviously you got to try to win and weasel your way onto teams and whatever you got to do when you’re at, when you’re a young guy and I just think that that’s something that, again, when I look back on it, just like you said, I don’t think that the system back then was better or worse necessarily than the system that we have today.

I just know my experience was one that I wouldn’t trade for anything. The idea of being at the park and playing with guys of all different ages and all those different kinds of things. I feel like that really made me the player who I was. And also it helped me develop, I think as a person, you develop confidence, the ability to speak up and stand up for yourself and all the things that kind of go along with playing with people of all different ages.

Whereas again, kids today kind of miss out on some of that. Cause you’re always playing with your own age group and you got a coach there and you got mom and dad in the stands and all that stuff. So it’s, it’s just interesting how different things are today for players.

[00:11:00] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[00:11:04] Mike Klinzing: Tell me a little bit about the decision. You’re in Charlotte and you end up at Andover. How does that happen?

[00:11:11] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. So my older brother is going to be sort of a running theme in this conversation. Cause he’s an unbelievable person, but I don’t want him to hear me say this if he listens to this podcast.

But I love him to death and he just, he, I mean, I looked up to him, so I wanted her to do everything that he did. And so my mom and my, my dad both really value education. My, my, my dad’s. My dad’s mother was a teacher, and his father was a, was a pastor but my mom’s parents, like, neither one of them went to college and, and so my dad had a sort of different way of valuing education, but my mom in particular, like, she just wanted us to have better opportunities than her parents had, and better opportunities than, than she had and so.

Titus, my older brother was a really good basketball player, really good football player at, at a really good school, public school in North Carolina called North Meck and that’s where I went to school as well. And so he his 11th grade year, he started getting some interest from a lot of schools and like, so he had some At the time, some smaller schools that were recruiting him from like, what would you say, low major conferences, right?

Low to mid major conferences. And so I’m thinking like Davidson was one of those schools, right? When they were in the Southern Conference and Coach McKillop recruited him like crazy. UNC Charlotte was in the Sun Belt at the time. They were recruiting him. And then a lot of schools.

So he had scholarship offers. And had some good opportunities. Wake Forest was messing around a little bit. Dave Odom would come and come and see him play a lot. But the, the big schools, the, the schools who were most involved were like Davidson and UNC Charlotte. At some point Titus committed to UNC Charlotte.

This is when they were about to move to Conference USA. And Melvin Watkins, who’s, who’s was, was a coach there at the time. I think that’s his name. Melvin Watkins was a coach there at the time. And so Titus committed to UNC Charlotte. After he committed, I think over the summer. My mom talked to an alum, I mean, talked to a family friend who had sent their kids to Phillips Academy, Andover.

And my mom was like intrigued by the reputation of the school. And then learn more about how he could develop not only as a student, but also as an athlete. And this guy, the guy’s name was Charlie Pittman. Charlie Pittman played at Penn State, played football at Penn State for Joe Paterno. And his son also played football at Penn State and his son went to, to Andover and played football at Penn State.

And so Titus You know, he played in the, it was a, it was a really prestigious, it was the East West All Star game in, in North Carolina. He played pretty well. And, and, and other schools were reaching out to him saying, Hey, we would love to recruit you. And so they had a conversation. My, my mom said, Hey, I want you to apply to this school.

And, and he, he applied and got in and, and I wasn’t a part of this conversation, but my dad and my brother were like, Hey, but he’s committed to, to UNC Charlotte, so he has to go. And my mom was like, I’ll take care of that, right?

[00:14:49] Mike Klinzing: My mom will take care of it.

[00:14:50] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. She’s like, I’ll take care of that.  So she called the coach and said, Hey, he’s not coming. Right. He’s going to this school and the coach, I don’t know what that conversation was like, but what I do know is my mom was like, she, she understood like how, even before she knew as much as she knows now about the place, right. She understood like what this would do to sort of change the trajectory of his life, going to a school like Andover, even without the basketball.

Right. And so. You know, he came up here and I always joke around because my brother is, so I’m six feet in, in when that’s what I write.

[00:15:32] Mike Klinzing: On your best day, you’re six feet.

[00:15:33] Terrell Ivory: I’m six feet. I’m not six feet. But like in, in, in the Davidson catalog or whatever we did, like I put like six feet.

Sometimes I can get away with writing six feet wide, right? My brother is legit. Like, 6’4 6’5 right? And like, built like a tank, right? And, and, and I, I always talk, talk about like how unfair it was that like he was four inches taller than me, right? So, I, I will admit this he is a much better athlete than I am.

What I always say is, like, I’m way smarter than he is, right? So he committed to, for a post grad year, committed to go to, basically said, yeah, okay, my mom figured out how to get him to go to Phillips Academy and then. He came up here for the summer session and it was really, really challenging for him, right?

So this is the part where I told him I’m smarter than him because when I came to Phillips Academy, they didn’t ask me to go to the summer session, right? Like, that was good, right? So that was a part of, like, alright, you can come, but you need, but based on, like, what you’ve done academically, like, you need to go to summer session just to prepare.

And he got up here and he was like, yeah, this is. This is really, really challenging. And almost to the point where he was like, I don’t know if I can do this. He, he figured out a way to, to, to get through the summer session. And then he came to the school and absolutely killed it in a lot of different ways, right?

He played football. They want to, they want to a Nescac championship. And he like. There’s this infamous story about against our rival Phillips Exeter where they were down three to zero and, and they threw a pass and the Andover threw a pass and, and time expired.

Incomplete pass, time expired, but the referees put time back on the clock. They were on like the 10 yard line, right? This is the short version. So, with one second left, he caught like a fade pass in the end zone to win the game. And so, at first, when time expired, the Exeter fans rushed the field and they were like, and the referees were like, you got to get off the field.

We got one more play, and then he caught the pass. And then the Andover fans rushed to field because they, that ended the game. And so he had a great football season and then in basketball at the, at that time, I don’t know how much you know about the knapsack, but right now it’s split up into classes, right?

It’s Nescac. There’s a double a and then triple a, and then there’s smaller, like there’s BC but like knapsack is a really good league, but at that time there were no classes, right? So. Andover would play against, so we don’t play against Brewster right now because they’re a triple A team, right?

And we play, we do play against Worcester, who’s a double A team, but we only play like four of those games, whereas most of the teams we play are, are in our class, right? Which is based on. the population of boys at the school. But at that time, they were playing against like Bridgeton Academy, MCI I think Rashad McCants went to MCI, Ed Cota went to MCI, like and I may have that, but those were dudes there, right?

And so Titus was, was at this school where the, the academic standards were really high, right? And they, they went like 21 and 3, right? And, and had a really good year. Averaged like 30 points a game, so that year Davidson was still recruiting them, obviously UNC Charlotte was still recruiting them but the three schools who were on him really hard after he came here and had a really good fall were Penn State, Michigan State, Indiana, And Notre Dame wanted him for football and basketball, right?

So like that, if it was just about basketball, it works, right? His recruiting sort of changed from, from looking at like some smaller schools in North Carolina and some low major, mid major to, to him being able to go to Penn State. And having an unbelievable career at Penn State. Right? So when it came time for me to, to, when I graduated from North Meck, right, I wasn’t getting much interest.

I was looking at some D3 schools. Like Roanoke was the highest level basketball school that was looking for me. Right? And so. When it came time for me to apply to colleges, my mom was like, you should go to Andover too, right? She basically told me I was going there. And she was my mom.

I trusted her. And then she had always looked out for me. And so I really didn’t even apply to any colleges. So I ended up at, at, at Phillips Academy Andover. And again, it didn’t work out. Like basketball wise, the way it worked out for Titus, right? Bobby Knight didn’t come see me play Davidson.

I was right in their backyard. They weren’t, they weren’t recruiting me, right? And I played at AAU that extra year and they, I remember Davidson coming to watch me play, but they, they didn’t offer me a scholarship. And so when I left you, I know you asked me about Andover. When I left Andover, right, the schools that were recruiting me, I went to visit Amherst, I went to visit Williams.

And then I made the decision to, to give myself an opportunity to play at Davidson, and part of that was… I watched Coach McKillop recruit my brother. I watched Coach McDainey, who was the assistant coach at Davidson recruit my brother. And I one of the reasons I wanted to go back home is like in between at some when I was 17, my father passed away.

So there was, I felt like I needed to be closer to home to be closer to my mom. Right. And, and, and one of the things I always say is that. When Titus, Titus like broke Coach McKillop’s heart, right? And I know as a college coach, right, there are a lot of kids you recruit that don’t end up coming to your school.

But man, Coach McKillop recruited Titus like really, really hard to the point where I remember him flying up to, Titus told me the story of him flying up to Andover and you know, right before he was, he made the decision to go to, to Penn State. But even after Titus sort of I went on some of the recruiting business at Davidson with Titus and, and I was like, I’ll come here, right?

But yeah, but they were like, nope. But like. You know, I watched him and I saw like who he, I kind of got a feel for who he was and the thing that sort of when I was saying like, hey, I want to go back home. I want to try to play at Davidson. Like, the thing I remember is I was sitting in the church at my dad’s funeral in the front row, right?

You know, obviously sad, heartbroken. And you know, not, not able to sort of deal with that as a 17 year old. But coach McKillop came to the funeral. This was at least a year or two after Titus had said no to him. So for me, I was like, if I’m going to go play for somebody, like I get to choose now who I want to try to play for.

Like, I want to play for somebody who, who would show up at my dad’s funeral, even after my brother. Decided not to play for him, right? Why after watching him recruit him the way that he did, right? Cause he was on another level compared to, I think, all the other coaches. Obviously not like not Penn State cause he chose to go there, but to me, that meant something, right?

[00:23:12] Mike Klinzing: I mean, I think when you start talking about people who have a huge impact on your life, like it sounds like you were able to recognize early on that, man, Coach McKillop is going to be a guy that. If I can go there and be a part of the team and be under his tutelage for four years, the things that you’re going to come out of that with.

Not only on the basketball floor, but just as a human being, I can see where you’re already starting to, again, almost not, not that you were processing it like this, but I almost think you’re thinking of that, like, as an adult, like this guy is a mentor. This is a guy who is going to have an impact on me.

Not only. On the basketball floor, but, but off the basketball floor and kind of seeing that through the, the recruitment of your brother. So what’s the conversation like when you’re making that decision where obviously most people that are recruiting you at that point you’re not getting those division one looks.

You’re not having a wide variety of choices. So when you go and you have a conversation with coach McKillop and you say, Hey, I’m, I want to come to Davidson. What’s that conversation sound like? What do you remember about it?

[00:24:22] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, the conversation wasn’t with Coach McKillop. Like, at that point, right like, I, they weren’t recruiting but I was, I was, I had done well enough academically to apply to the school and to get into the school.

My ticket into the school was that it was football, right? So I had a plan, right? And I’m not saying like in retrospect, it makes a lot of sense. I would say like, I wouldn’t, and I have conversations with my players all the time about making sure that they find the right fit. Right. And I, as a young kid, I probably thought I was better than I was, right?

What I did know is I work really hard and I love basketball. And so I figured I would take the risk, right? I don’t know if I would recommend that to kids, or I would make sure that they know like… You may not make the team there, right? You may not play basketball ever again. Like, are you willing to give up basketball to go to a division one school, as opposed to go to William and Amherst where they really, really want you, right?

So like, I’ve had this conversation with kids all the time and I get to tell them my story and say, sometimes. I wish that maybe I would have given myself the chance to go to like a Williams or an Amherst, right? It’s, and that’s really good basketball. It’s really good basketball. It’s a really good school.

It just worked out for me. So in retrospect, I made the right decision. And I didn’t play as much as I wanted to play. But the experience is something that I will, I will never, ever, ever say that like, I loved my experience there. And part of it was because of it was because of Coach McKillop.

So my conversation was more with once I got into the school. And, and the football team, the football coach is recruiting me, right? So once I got into the school I called coach Matheny and said, Hey, coach Matheny, I’m coming to Davidson, right? And I would love to try out for the basketball team and, and coach Matheny is my guy, right?

And, and he’s done so much for me. But at the time he was like, all right, you can try out. That was it.

[00:26:53] Mike Klinzing: He didn’t do any cartwheels, is that what you’re saying?

[00:26:56] Terrell Ivory: No, no, he wasn’t. Part of me was like, oh, that matter. I was like, so coach McKean, just so you know, like I told you I would come.

Titus is the one who went to Penn State, right? But like, I at the time he was like, all right, you can try out. And, and so I played football you know, when I, when I got there, so that’s sort of, sort of started right away. I went into preseason, I played football, but I would always just, I, my thing, I would always just show up cause they were doing like.

At the time, the way they could work out was a little bit different. They could do like three, four man workouts, right. And in the preseason. So I would just go and just sit in the gym and watch, watch them work out. AndI would go, I had some conversations with the coach, but they didn’t make me any promises.

There was no guarantee. And this was the first time I was a good athlete. in high school, right? And at the, when you start playing like 15, 16, 17 and under AAU, at that point, you kind of know, right? You’re going to make the team, right? So I didn’t have to deal with that pressure. This was the first time in a long time where I was like, I don’t know if I’ll ever play basketball again.

Like it was, it was stressful. So I was I was going to go into football practice. Right. Which was always like a grind. I was doing my work. And then I would, I would just, I would get in the gym when they weren’t using the court and, and, and work out and, and do everything I can. And so to be ready to give myself a chance, I don’t remember much of tryouts, but part of it was just like, all right.

We got one walk on who was on the team last year. There’s another kid who’s trying out. Like you just have to play them one on one, right? You know? So, I guess, I mean, that was, that’s tough. Right. And then eventually you know, I, I put myself in a position where they, they said, all right, you can be a part of the team, but like, there’s no guarantees whatsoever.

Like my, by the time I, then I made the team and then I was like, I was like, I’m done with football. Right. So, cause I remember watching the, I was still playing football. They played. Duke early in the season. I was thinking it was in like November. So I was watching that game in my dorm room. Right. Cause I wasn’t a part of the team yet.

And then I would say like a few weeks later I was a part of the team. But I wasn’t, I don’t think I was traveling with the team or anything like that, but I was. But I they were allowing me to practice and I was a part of the team and it was sort of like, it felt like I was like, they could just be like, all right, you’re done any at any point.

Right. But like, What I knew, right, and it was sort of similar to when I was playing pickup as a, as a kid, is like, all right, like, I got to figure out a way to make sure they know that they, they need me, right? And part of it was just, I was going to do everything I could. Everything I could to, to, to, to make sure I was competing and making the kids, the guys who were playing, making sure I got, I made sure that they, they got better, right?

I was going to play hard defense to the point where I was annoying. I’m sure I was annoying to the guys who played.

[00:30:15] Mike Klinzing: Why is he playing so hard? Why is this walk guy bothering me, man? Get this guy off me.

[00:30:18] Terrell Ivory: Why is this walk guy here? Get him away from me, right? My whole thing was, all right, I’m going to, I’m going to just make, I’m going to do my best to make you guys better.

Right. And that’s what I tried to do. I had to sort of, it was a very humbling thing, right? Cause I was no longer like, it didn’t matter at that point. It was like my mindset was, it doesn’t matter how, how good I play. Like I’m not going to get the play because a scholarship. is worth something, right?

I’m, I’m free. And so like, I just got to do what I can to make sure that these other guys get better. And, and then like, as much as they didn’t like me because I think I was playing, like, I was going way too hard. Right. I wanted to make sure they liked me off the court. And so that was part of it too, is I think I have a good personality.

So that part was sort of natural and easy, but like it, it, I was relieved when I finally Didn’t feel like, all right, they’re going to cut me at any point. Right. Well, I don’t even know at what point, I can’t remember at what point that was, but like, at some point, like I was on the team and I felt like I felt like, okay, I’m okay.

Right. I don’t have to like fight for my life anymore. So yeah, but coach McKillop, once I got to know him, like it was tough. Right. It was tough. And, and, and, but I just, you, you, you could tell, like. And I had a lot of really good coaches growing up and some coaches who weren’t so good. But like he was unbelievable, right?

Like I just had so much respect for him. And sort of. Like how he ran his practices and how he was sort of went about making sure that we got better. And then it was just the details, the details, the details. Right. And then at a certain point, I realized like he’s teaching us a lot about basketball.

But he’s also teaches us a lot about, like, life, right? And, and preparing us for, you know what, what, what things will be like after we finished playing basketball, which I, which I really appreciate it, especially for a person who whose father had passed away, right?

[00:32:28] Mike Klinzing: What’s your favorite memory from your time at Davidson?

Does one thing stick out either? On the court, off the court, in the locker room, is there any one or two things that stick out for you?

[00:32:37] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, going to the NCAA tournament I think 2002. So my sophomore year we won the Southern Conference tournament. We beat, I think we beat Furman in the championship.

And, and I don’t think it was a close game. But College basketball is no joke. And, and, and all the sort of work that we put in, all the, the, the, the sacrifices all a lot of good, some bad, right? But it’s sort of, For us, like that was it, right? That was, that was, that was what you sort of fought for was, was sort of winning the Southern Conference Championship and having a chance to play in the NCAA tournament.

And I had watched that growing up. I watched my brother playing the tournament and, and, and being able to, to, to have that experience. You know, we’re sitting in the, in what we call the Union at the time watching Selection Sunday and seeing our name come on the screen against, I think we were the, we were a 13 seed, and we played the 4 seed, we played we played Ohio State in New Mexico, at the Pitt.

And that experience was really cool. And actually it was a, it was a pretty close game. And I got in the game.

[00:34:01] Mike Klinzing: So not only, not only did you make the NCAA tournament, but you played in the NCAA tournament.

[00:34:02] Terrell Ivory: I got in,  I played. So my, cause I had no expectations of playing, but I played a little bit my, my sophomore year.

And my, one of my best friends on the team at the time, this kid Wayne Bernard was a starting point guard. And he was my guy. And, and was a really, really good player from, he was from San Diego. And so it was always, for me, there was always, always this conflict, right? Because I wanted him to do well, cause he was my really good friend.

And I loved him. But. Like I knew when he got two fouls, the coach was going to put me in. So I’m on the bench like, and I’m cheering and I’m up and I’m doing everything I can to support my teammates. But when he got his first foul, like there, there was always this voice in the back of my head.  Like you should, you…

[00:34:54] Mike Klinzing: You probably want to reach in right there and try to get a steal.

[00:34:59] Terrell Ivory: So I was always at that point. Like most games, I was sort of first off the bench when he got, when he got two fouls. And so that I was, I knew I was going to go in too. I, at some point I was like, I’m just going to sub myself in because he did two fouls.

So but yeah, so I, I mean, that, that game was unbelievable, right? We, we had a chance and it was a close game. I, I got in the game. And I I had, I think I had one turnover and then I think he took me out, like, I think I played like three minutes and I was, I, and so as much as I would set myself in the game when I had when Wayne had two fouls, I knew when I had that turnover, I was like, I was like, yeah,

[00:35:40] Mike Klinzing: My time here is done.

[00:35:42] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, yeah. That’s funny.

[00:35:44] Mike Klinzing: I mean, to get an opportunity to play in the NCAA tournament. I mean. Again, like it’s, you think about how much time you spent as a young kid, just growing up. And as you said, you got to watch your brother play, but just watching on TV and thinking about playing in it at some point.

And when I was playing it, Kent, we, my freshman year and that year, that was the only year I didn’t play a lot. I played probably, I don’t know, five minutes a game maybe, but made it to the tournament, the MAAC tournament final. And we lost by one. And that’s a case where I was a freshman and we had a pretty good team and thought, Hey we’re going to, we’re going to be back in this position and be able to we didn’t, we didn’t make it.

We lost by one in the, in the tournament final. And being somebody who plays five minutes, you were kind of like, yeah I would have liked to have made it, but man when we make it in the next couple of years, when I’m really playing, it’s going to be a lot different. And then obviously we never we never got there.

And so it’s one of those things that. You know, man, just to be able to have that opportunity to, to experience that something that you’ve watched and seen, and it’s been a part of your life since you were a little kid to be able to participate in that. I’m sure it was obviously, as you just described, super special to be able to, to be able to do that when you’re there at Davidson.

What did you go into your college career academically thinking about in terms of what you wanted to study and what your career was going to be? Did you think you were going to be a coach or where were you at? Where was your mindset at as you were, as you’re going through school?

[00:37:16] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. So, I mean, like, like most kids growing up, I wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer.

And as I got older, that sort of changed. I wanted to, I knew I wanted to be involved in sport. At some point, right? I just didn’t know how. So I thought about sports medicine. I thought about like sports marketing or something like that. I got to Davidson and took a couple of like science, biology classes, like I’m not doing that anymore.

Right.

And I think I have a, I think one of my superpowers, I think, right, is self awareness, right? And, I just wasn’t like a big fan of those classes, right? And I was like, I’m not doing this. And so I ended up majoring in sociology and it’s a liberal arts school. So you took a little bit of everything.

So I ended up majoring in sociology. And I had no idea what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to be involved in basketball. And then what happened is the more and more as I got older and the more and more like I learned from coach McKillop, I was like, listen, I want to be a coach. Right.

And because I wasn’t playing as much. I really could sort of step back and just take in everything that he was doing and understand like why he made certain decisions and just like really pay attention to what was happening and what sort of his mindset was and how he was preparing us not only for games, but again, for the other things.that probably matter even more than competing. And so I just was, he inspired me. And he, and he became like a role model. He became a mentor and I knew like, especially my junior, senior year, like I want to coach and, and just trying to figure out how I could do that.

But you know, I always sort of had this dream of, of playing and I, and again I play, I played like. Maybe 15 minutes my junior year. And then that went down my senior year. I didn’t play as much my senior year. I still played a little bit, but not as much. But other kids from the school had played overseas.

My brother was playing like really high level overseas. So at first I was like, all right, I want to play as long as I can. I ended up playing one year. Coach got me a job in England playing basketball for a club called the Manchester Magic. And again, the self awareness, right? I was making 1, 500 to like 2, 000 a month, right?

Which was enough, right?

[00:40:14] Mike Klinzing: That wasn’t a long term career.

[00:40:15] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. No, it wasn’t a long term career. Whereas my brother, he was making You know, he was making like exponentially more money, right? And so I had somebody to sort of compare myself to. If I was making what he was making, then maybe I would continue to do this.

And so at that point I made the decision, like, all right, I want to, I want to get into coaching. And again I use like my relationships with. Coach McKillop and, and at the time, Coach Matheny. And I sort of let them know like, Hey, I want to get into coaching. Coach Matheny. Heard from Coach Mantegna at, at Blair Academy.

He was like, this is what I’m looking for. And Coach Mastini was like, I got the guy. Right. He was looking for a young guy who wanted to get into coaching and who wanted to become get into college coaching at some point. Right. And, and, and in this opportunity to work at a boarding school. So I was playing, but I knew I wasn’t going to, that wasn’t going to last.

I had gone to a boarding school, so Blair Academy, where Coach Mantegna worked was, was a similar school to Phillips Academy, so I kind of understood what that world was and Coach Mantegna hooked me up with Coach Mantegna. I remember talking to him over the summer. About the opportunity.

And it was funny because I had just played, I was working at a basketball camp and there was a kid who was, I think he was on his way to college. Cause there was, there was some opportunities, right? Some like low level opportunities in Europe, but I played I played one on one against this kid. His name was Anthony Morrow.

And he absolutely destroyed me, and I was like, yeah, I’m done. I was like, I can’t, there’s nothing I could do. Right. And I was like, that’s, that’s like a bad. And I, at that time, I didn’t know he was going to play in the NBA. I think he was, I think he was going to, I think he went to Georgia Tech. But like, he absolutely destroyed me.

So that made me even more like, all right, I’m going to go into coaching because I’m done with basketball. Cause I can’t do that. Right. And so like I, he connected me with coach, he connected me with, with coach Mantegna and that would, that opportunity to became like you know, unbelievable sort of jumping off point for me to get into college coaching.

So and, and so one of the things I always tell my players is, and, and one of the reasons why I love working here and helping kids have this opportunity is they, they develop relationships, right? And those relationships matter. And when I was at Davidson, the when I wasn’t playing as much as I wanted to, I was good with it.

My mom wasn’t. You had, you had to try to keep mom quiet. . My mom. My mom was like, I don’t know if Coach McKillop even knows this. But my mom was like, I’m going to go talk to Coach McKillop . I was like, like, no, you’re not. Like, no, you’re not. And I said that and, and my mom, she is, To use a good word, she’s passionate, right?

And loves her baby because I’m her baby, right? But she, she just didn’t understand why I wasn’t playing. And, and I talked about how I thought I was a little bit better than I was. She thought I was way better than Coach McKillop thought I was. And I said to her, I was like, And I had to like talk her down.

I was like, you are not going to go talk to coach McKillop. And I said, and this is how I convinced her not to go talk to coach McKillop. I said like, he cares about me and I know I’m not playing and it hurt. I want to play, but I know he cares about me and I know, right, that he cares about me and he cares about the team and maybe we think I’m better than I am, but like he’s doing what’s best for this team and here’s what I know, right?

He’s going to, he’s going to be there for me for a long time after I graduate from Davidson. He’s always going to help me out. Like, I knew that, right? And he, he, he showed us that, like everything at Davidson was about family from, from like everything we did. And this, this sort of the, the mantra that we had, the thing that we tapped when we left the locker room was trust, commitment, care, right?

And I trusted him. I knew like, yeah, he, I know he knows that I want to play. Right? It’s one of the reasons why I work so hard. I know, like, I know, like, he knows that I’m upset. But my job is to help this team get better, regardless of how much I play in the game. And if I play, like, I’m going to do everything that I can to earn minutes.

But, like, you are not allowed to talk to Coach McKillop. And my mom apologizes to me to this day because Coach McKillop… Coach Matheny, Coach McKillop got me the job in England. Coach Matheny got me the job at, at Blair Academy with Coach Mantegna. I was there for three years. The first year at Blair Academy after I played in England for a year.

I was an intern and I was just an assistant coach. And I had a chance to, cause they were… A powerhouse back then, right? So there was so many college coaches coming in to watch those kids play and coach Mantegna, like his sole purpose was to help me get better as a coach and to mentor me but also like to help me connect with coaches, right?

So. When Tom Cream came to watch one of our players play when he was at Marquette. I went and picked him up at the airport and brought him back to Blair Academy. It was like an hour ride, right? And I did that with other coaches, so I got a chance to meet a lot of coaches. Now I always joke with Coach Mantegna.

That I got a job at Davidson, so I know you wanted to help me out, but clearly I didn’t need you because I could have got that job without you. So but like Coach Mantegna was like, and again, I’m so lucky that I had like these adults in my life and going back to, to when I played at North Meck, like there was a guy Leroy Holden, who was.

You know, he was a, he was a legend in Mecklenburg County in the, in the Charlotte Huntersville area. And then I had a chance to play for a guy who, who’s an unbelievable coach still at North Meck, who has Dwayne, Dwayne Lewis, who’s unbelievable. Right. So my senior year, he took over for coach Holden.

And then I got, I got coach McKillop and then I got, I got a chance to work for, for Joe Mantegna, who. It was amazing because I thought, I always thought he was like one of the best coaches that I had ever been around. And the one thing he always did was ask questions and he would ask me questions.

I’m like, you’re the head coach. Like, why are you asking me? But he, but he really, like, he wanted to know what I thought. And I was like, this is so cool. And, and so it made me want to like, learn even more. So I could be prepared to answer his questions and, and, and sort of help him, his program get better.

But this program is really good. Right. But he would always ask questions and that’s something that that’s one of the many lessons that he taught me. But he would always ask questions. He would ask questions like as if I was as smart as if I was like, I’m not smart. You’re like the guy. So and then I got a chance to, so, and then I got a chance to work for Coach McKillop, which, you know.

So I thought I learned a lot from him as a player, but like seeing him, like the way he wrote practice plans, the way he, he sort of catered the, the, the practices to, to, to help us. Like learn certain skills. There was this thing we did before practice, they were called simulations, right? So we spent like the first 20 to 30 minutes in practices, just doing like little, little small like movements and, and drills and things, sometimes even without a ball.

And, and he was just creating these. things like there would be a problem we needed to address and, and something we watched on film. And this kid, like we would call it pin boxing, right? Cause everybody knows you box out. But like if you’re on the outside and the shot goes up, like you want to push them under the basket.

Right. So we would work on stuff like that. And it was, it was like, I’d learned so much from him as a coach, like how to write a practice. Plan. Right? That’s something like as simple as that. But like he’s just so it, I’ve been lucky, right? So I had Coach McKillop and then I went from Davidson working there for three years.

And then Coach Langel was like just so different from Coach McKillop, but like learning how, learning from him because his style was a little bit different. It just, it just made me so much better, right, as a, as a coach. And so I, one of the things I always say is I just been lucky, right?

I’ve been lucky to, to, to be around like some unbelievable people, some unbelievable coaches and, and, and that’s helped me, I think be a better coach, be a better mentor and. You know, it’s got me to, yeah, and I’m still like, like coach, coach, coach, my tagline, like, I’m constantly thinking, like, I want to ask questions.

I want to learn, right. Even right now, I think that’s really important as a coach.

[00:50:09] Mike Klinzing: What was the transition like going from? The player coach relationship with Coach McKillop to suddenly you’re a part of his staff and your colleagues, as opposed to that player coach. Did, I know that it never goes away and he’s always going to be Coach McKillop to you.

I’m sure you weren’t walking around the office. Calling him Bob, but just, when did you start to feel comfortable with the idea that, Hey, we’ve at least reached this equilibrium point where I’m not looking at him as my coach. And I’m still a player in that relationship. And we are more colleagues, so to speak, when you’re on his staff, how long did it take for you to kind of get comfortable with that?

[00:50:51] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, I think right away. Cause like one of the things that he was really good at was communication. And he sort of made me understand, we’re bringing you back. Like, I want you to come back. We’re bringing you back as a coach because we need your input. We value your input. And I played for him.

So he watched me as a player and I think he understood the way sort of I analyze the game and I hope that he thought I was a high IQ player. And so when he brought me back, like, the understanding was like, you’re not here just because we’re doing you a favor.

You’re here because like, we need your help. We want your input and we want you to help out as much as possible. And so for me it was a, it was an opportunity to learn and understand. And get a feel for what he needed and how I could help out the program. But he, but he made it clear, like you know, when we would meet and we had a, we had a lot of meetings, we would meet, like he, he would, he would ask for, for input and he would I was Director of basketball operations at the time.

So, like, sort of on the totem pole of coaches, I was the lowest coach, but he made sure that I felt like that my, the input that I had, my value was, was, was important. And, and every once in a while, you would say something, or like, you would, you would he would, he would put it into practice, but he like, yeah you’d pat yourself on the back, right?

[00:52:24] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. Yeah, Terrell came up with something right here.

[00:52:24] Terrell Ivory: No, it was great. No, I love that. So yeah, he was, I mean, he just was great. He made you feel like you matter. And, and that, that’s really important, especially because he, he had such an unbelievable reputation. Right. And like the, the way people sort of revered him in that community you know, was something that I admire, but.

He never, he always made us feel like we were important as a player. He made us feel that way. And he made us feel that way as, as coaches. So I think right away because he sort of, he told me, he was like we’re hiring you because I think you bring, you, you bring value to it, to our program.

[00:53:07] Mike Klinzing: So yeah, no better endorsement of a great leader than somebody who takes input from all their people and makes all their people feel.

I mean, I think anybody, no matter whether you’re talking about a coach who’s leading a basketball program, or you’re talking about a CEO who’s leading a company, or you’re talking about a principal who’s leading a school, right? If you can, if you can master that technique to make people feel like they’re a part of it and that they’re valid, their input is valued, then you’re.

You’re 90% of the way there as far as, as far as what great leadership is, is really all about. I mean, you had an opportunity while you’re at Davidson. I can’t let it slide by that you had a pretty good player there at Davidson while you were, while you were coaching. So tell me a little bit about just what it was like to, to be around Steph Curry when he’s a college player at Davidson.

[00:53:57] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. So I, even before that, like I lived in Charlotte when Dale Curry was, was playing for the Hornets. And I used to work Dell’s camp. And so I used to watch Steph play and his jumper was beautiful, but, and I just watched the documentary, but he did shoot from his hip, right? And eventually he changed his shot but like it, it looked good.

And, and I’ll say this, like Dell used to do those, those shooting demonstrations where he would start like in close. And then he would sort of gradually move back and he would talk about the value of starting in close. And then he would move back to three point line and then like, cause it’s, it’s sort of how Steph has changed the game, but Dell used to like, like go to half court, right.

And just shoot a jump shot. And it looked like he was like, like shooting a form shot, like right under the rim. Right.

[00:54:49] Mike Klinzing: And in his era, I will say so. Yeah. So. Dell was in Cleveland while I was probably in high school and we went and saw one time went and saw them play in an exhibition game at the University of Akron.

And I mean, I still saw their games at the, at the old Coliseum in Richfield that the Cavs played, but I remember going to that game at Akron and just seeing him shoot the ball and the speed. I don’t remember anybody from that era being able to get the shot off. As fast as Dell Curry can get that shot off.

And that, when I think of Dell Curry, that’s the main thing that I think about is just the speed of his release. And I still have, it’s one of those memories that’s kind of like seared into my brain of I can still see like where I was sitting in that game at the University of Akron. And just, I have like one picture of him raising up for a jump shot.

And the thing that always stuck in my head from that game was Man, does that guy get the shot off quick.

[00:55:45] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. He was, I mean, he’s just, it was one of those things where it was just different, right. Watching him shoot and like, right. How it seemed like he was so strong, but it looked just effortless.

Like when he shot it cause I remember like in college, I remember we, in, in, in pro and there would be a, NBA three point line and I, I think I had a really good jumper, but all of a sudden you’re like heaving the ball from So I, I, I used to watch Steph and he was like 11, 12 years old. And then my, my, my actual first coaching job was and that it was in the documentary was with the Charlotte Stars and a friend of mine, his name is Malcolm Saunders. He goes by he used to run, do a lot of parties in Charlotte. His name is Buck Long, which is how he got connected with Dell and started a AAU program. So I used to watch Steph play. But I coach Seth, right? So my first coaching job was coaching the younger team that Seth was on.

So I coached his team. So I knew the family. My mom was on Dell Curry’s like board, right? For, for, for like. some charities he was running and stuff like that. So, so I knew the family and I knew Steph, right? And watched him play a lot and sort of followed, like, his story, but nobody knew what he was going to be.

So, when I got to Davidson, they had just, Made it to the elite eight the year before. Right. And so that was that that sort of was everything. Right? And that’s sort of, sort of the birth of, of Stephan Curry and, and like sort of the start of his, his rise Right. To what he is now. But I, so when I was at Blair Academy, I almost got fired because I went to the game in Detroit and my sister lives in Detroit.

And they, they made it to, I think they were playing it was a game that LeBron came to. They were playing Wisconsin. And I was like, I’m going to the game. And I was teaching, at that point I was teaching the class. And I basically like wrote my class and like, hey, no class. So, I drove…

[00:57:57] Mike Klinzing: Watch TI on TV, man.

[00:58:03] Terrell Ivory: We were supposed to have class. There he is at the game. I drove nine hours to the game. I stayed with my sister. I got tickets from I called Coach Matheny. I was like, Coach, I’m coming to the game. He got me tickets. I was at the game. It was unbelievable. And then I got back to Blair Academy and the Dean of Faculty was like, Hey TI, you need to come into my office.

And I was like, he was the nicest guy ever. He basically was like, don’t you ever do that again. And like, I got in trouble, but it was worth it, right? And so long story short, Coach McKillop hired me the next year. And it was being around him was, It was a little crazy, right?

And this was, imagine if it was now, right? When it was like social media. Right, absolutely. But like, every game was packed. Like, and, and, but the best thing about Steph, and this is, I talk about being around his family, being around his mom, being around his dad. Like, I always tell people, like, he’s a really good player, right?

He’s a better person than he is a player. And that was the case at Davidson, right? Nobody, if you didn’t know, like he was an unbelievable basketball player. Like it wasn’t like he was, he was walking around like I’m the man. And he was just, he was so accessible. Like he cared about, you know like using the gravity that he had to help other people. But he also he’s one of those kids. He just outworked everybody too. Not only was he more talented than anybody. ever at Davidson, but I think he worked harder than anybody at Davidson. He was, he was always like the first guy in the gym, the last guy to leave.

There were plenty of times that he was like you know, T. I., can you get in there? Can we, can we shoot? You know and stuff like that. But it was, it was, it was fun to watch because As an alum, as a person who, who, who went to Davidson, who cared about the school outside of being on the staff, right?

It was cool to watch how many people gravitated towards him and gravitated towards the school because he was there and because of the way he was playing, because of the things he was doing. And, and I, and I, I, I watched him in practice. And he was just unbelievable. And he would just make crazy shots and do unbelievable things.

But also on the road, right? Like I, I turned into his sort of de facto bodyguard cause he would never tell anybody, no. Right. And so he got to the point, I was like, yo, we have to go, man. Like, cause I was the ops guy. I had to make sure the bus was on time and like, you have to, you have to get him where he’s supposed to be.

Right. I got it. So like, we had sort of a thing where I was like, all right, we got to go, man. Like, I know you want to sign a million autographs, but we got to go. But like that, it was like, he was a rock star at that point because of what he did the year before. And so people were like running up to our buses.

Every game, obviously the Davidson games were sold out, but every game was, was sold out on, on the road too, right? In the Southern Conference. And I think the in the documentary, there was a, a friend of mine Lauren Biggers, who was like the assistant SID. And she said, like, if you wanted to watch and play, you couldn’t watch the games on TV.

You had to watch them like on live stream or be there in person. And then you could just. It’s, you could just sort of feel the energy when he got the ball, right? And it’s, it’s, it’s magnified now, but when he when he would shoot, like people would go crazy. And I remember the game at Madison Square Garden when we played we played West Virginia.

And, and there was a kid who played for me at Blair, this kid, Wellington Smith. And then who else did they have? They had, they had a kid who, who, who was like supposed to be a high draft pick, but they, they were good. Right. And there’s Bob Huggins and they were sort of known for like offensive rebound.

And like they. You should look up the stats of that game and look at the, the what the, what the, like the, the rebounding differential was, because it was like, they would shoot the ball because nobody on their team could shoot, right? They would shoot the ball. And I don’t think they were trying to make the shot.

They were just trying to get it up on the glass.

[01:02:23] Mike Klinzing: Let’s go get it,

[01:02:25] Terrell Ivory: Go get it. And like, it was one of those things where as a coach, you’re on the bench. And I always, as I, I had the first seed, it was like, oh my God, like we can’t get a rebound. And like, somehow, like, at the end of that game I forgot who was guarding, but he was like six, seven, long arms.

He was guarding Steph, and Steph like made a move and shouted three over. Because Steph was, I don’t think he played well that game. He just happened to make shots at the end of the game, and we ended up beating him. So every once in a while, I’ll send Wellington clips of that game. But that was the first time where, like, I, you kind of knew because he, he always, Coach McKillop always talked about sort of playing under the Broadway lights, right, because he’s from New York City.

He’s like the, the guys who I love are the ones who step up in the, in, in those presses situations. And, and in that moment, right, in, in Madison Square Garden, because we always used to go to New York because that’s where Coach was from over the but like in that moment, seeing him, the way he played, the way he like willed us to win that game against a team who was way more talented than we were, right?

We had no business winning that game. But like, When he got the ball, like, people were going crazy, just anticipating, like, what he was going to do. And I think Jay Bilas was calling the game. And, I mean, it was just an unbelievable atmosphere. But just, there was so many moments like that.

Like, we played Chattanooga, he had, like, a 75 foot shot against them in the half. Stuff like that. Like, he just would do stuff that, like it just seemed like he wasn’t human, right? But like, again, but then he would come back and he’d just be like, he’s just one of the guys, right? And, and I always appreciated that because I, I always joke around, if I had played the way he played his sophomore year and carry the team to like almost getting to the final four, like you wouldn’t be able to talk to me, right? I would, I would be just big time to people doing your thing. I want to get to the point where I could big time people, even to this day. I’m just, I don’t think I’ll ever be like that.

[01:04:38] Mike Klinzing: No, that’s, I mean, obviously when you start talking about what it takes to get to the level that Steph has gotten to, I mean, I think you hit on it, right? It’s, he had an unbelievable amount of talent, but he also worked harder than anybody else, regardless of whether they had more talent, less talent, whatever.

And you combine having the talent with having the work ethic. And that’s when you get guys who achieve to the highest level of whatever their potential is. I mean, there’s guys who don’t get to that level that Steph’s gotten because their talent. Yeah. But you’re talking about somebody who’s maximizing who they can be, right?

They’re, they’re reaching the potential of what they were given because of their work ethic. And that’s really how you end up getting to this level of success that Steph has clearly gotten to. And for you to be able to spend firsthand, be able to, to sit side by side with that is just. I’m sure that there’s lessons that you’ve taken from him and stories that you’ve taken from him that you’re able to incorporate into what you do on a daily basis as far as having conversations with players and trying to get them to, to live up to their potential.

I know that for you, the opportunity to go back to Andover. As a head coach and leave college basketball, just from reading a little bit about you, that that wasn’t necessarily the easiest decision because you had kind of had your mindset on, Hey, I’m going to stay in the college basketball space. And then this opportunity in Andover comes your way.

Talk a little bit about the decision to leave Colgate, take the Andover job, and then what it meant to you to kind of come back to a place that had been so special to you as a player.

[01:06:24] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, I love working. It was only one year because being at Davidson for three years. I was familiar with that place.

I was close to home. So that was, that was nice. And, and being able to you know, be a part of that community again was, was really special. So the journey to Colgate for me was a big leap, right? But I also had a good conversation with Matt Langel before I decided to take that job and, and really respected him and, and wanted to just help him build something at Colgate and, and I, I sort of took that leap, which was, it was scary, right? Leaving home, going to a place that I wasn’t really familiar with. But like I had a, I had a really good experience there. And there’s the only, only reason I would have left Colgate, the only reason I would have left college coaching was to come to Andover.

And part of it was just, I had such a good experience as a student at the school. I knew what the school had done for, for my older brother. I was still pretty close to the AD at the time. His name is Leon Modesty. And not only was he. When, when I was a student, he was my college basketball, he wasmy basketball coach.

He was my football coach. And he was also my house counselor. So I got to know him really well and I had stayed in touch with him. And, and he would always talk to me about. coming back at some point. But he, I knew he was going to like be here forever because people come to these places and because it’s so amazing, they never leave, right?

And they don’t, they don’t have a reason to but he and I stayed in touch. And at one point I had looked at a job at another school sort of similar to this, and he basically, and I was going to take the job. And he was like, don’t do it. He’s like, I want you to take my job at some point. And I was like, when?

He was like, I don’t know. Right? And I was, he’s just like, just trust me, be patient. And so that was like two or three years before. You know, I looked at this, looked at and decided to come back to Andover. And so when he called me and said, Hey, I’m going to coach football I’ll let you take over the basketball.

To me, it was like a no brainer. And I had worked at Blair Academy and one of the I didn’t the first year I got paid like 15, 000. I ate for free on campus and they gave me an apartment. So I was able to make it work. And so it was sort of similar here. They just were going to pay me a little bit more money.

But I would have came for free, right? Because I knew what Coach Modesty did for me. I knew how much he helped me out. Part of the reason why I decided to leave college coaching is I love that being a part of that, but I didn’t feel like I was, I wanted to like help kids out in a different way. And at the college level, like you get to know the kids really well, but like you, you weren’t involved in their life as much outside of basketball.

Cause, cause it’s a business, right? Whereas at Andover, it’s not a business, right? You’re here. I’m a basketball coach. I work in admissions. I’m a house counselor. I teach a what we call a EBI class, Empathy, Balance and Inclusion class. And it’s just a health slash life skills class. So I get to know these kids really well.

And I get to know kids who don’t even play basketball really well. And for me, a kid from North Carolina coming from like a middle, lower class family you know, the same reason why my mom wanted me to take advantage of this opportunity, right? I get to help kids like me, who probably even worse off than me use this opportunity to like change the trajectory of their life.

And to me and coach McKellar at Davidson always used to talk about it and he sort of used it in a basketball context, but he, it was, it was more than just basketball. Like, one of his things was like, if you help somebody. I’m sorry. If you help somebody, you help yourself, right?

He always used to say that. And so that meant like, if you, if you set a screen, you’re going to get somebody open. But if you get somebody open, guess what? You’re going to get open, right? So like, if you, if you, if you help somebody get open, that means you’re going to get open. You help yourself, right? If you take a charge, right?

Like you’re going to help the team, right? You get credit for the charge, but you’re helping the team. So you always, you talk about that, but it was always, I know, I know for a fact, it wasn’t just about basketball, right? And so this idea of being selfless. And helping other people was always something that Coach McKillop sort of drilled into us.

So I love coaching and it was something that I wanted to do, but coming to a school like Andover, being able to not only coach, but also help kids in other ways, especially since. I know what this place does for people was like a dream for me. And so like you know, I love working for Coach Langel and I think he’s one of the best coaches in the country.

But this was the only place that I would, I would stop. I would like leave Colgate for leave college coaching for and I’ve been here for 13 years. I feel like I made the right decision, but I also realized telling Coach Langel. That’s how I knew I really wanted to do this because telling him that I, I wanted to take this job was, was really difficult because of how much I cared about him and everything that he did for me.

[01:12:22] Mike Klinzing: Talk a little bit about, as you’re describing the relationships that you’re building with your players, and you’re talking about the influence that you can have on kids, not only on the basketball floor, but off the basketball floor. Tell us a little bit about your. role and how you see it in terms of helping the kids on your team get to college, whether that’s kids who want to play and are able to play college basketball, or I’m sure you’ve had players on your team that aren’t interested in playing college basketball, or maybe they’re not good enough to play college basketball.

And they’re just going to be making a decision about where they’re going to spend the next four years of their life in terms of. academics and just going to school. So what’s your role there and how do you handle that with helping kids with the recruiting process and making a college decision?

[01:13:10] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, so I always think about like coaching is like teaching, but it’s a little bit different of a classroom.

Right. And I think there are a lot of similarities. But with coaching, there’s some lessons that, that, that I think I can help kids learn that teachers in the academic setting can’t help their kids learn, right? I think about you know, teaching, helping kids learn how to compete, helping kids sort of learn how to deal with adversity, helping kids learn how to have good sportsmanship, helping kids understand how to Like, because, because things aren’t going to always work out the way you want them to, right?

And, and that’s just the way basketball, Coach McKillop, again, always just say basketball is a, is a game of mistakes, right? So part of one of the things I try to do really well is, is help our kids do a really good job of learning from their mistakes, right? And because I, I coached at the college level, because I played at the college level and not just played and coached at the college level, I played for like one of the, like one of the most well respected coaches you know, that has ever been involved in college basketball.

And so I’m able to sort of pass along a lot of the lessons that I learned from him and some of the other people that I’ve worked with and worked for to my kids. And, and, and part of that is, is putting them in position to understand what it’s like to play at the next level. And so I try to run my practices just like they do at the college level. And so when, for me, when kids. If they are lucky enough to play at the next level as D3, D2, D1 junior college, anything like that, like when they go to practice, they say, coach, they’ve seen this before, right?

They, at least they’ve experienced that intensity level. And so I try to sort of do a really good job of sort of. Simulating like what it would be like at the next level and giving them an idea of what to expect. So they’re, they’re as prepared as possible to be successful. As soon as possible once they, they step onto a college, college, like they step, they, they go to these colleges and they’re playing.

And then sort of helping them understand what the expectations are, what it’s like to be a student athlete at this place. This is how to manage your time how to put yourself in a position to be successful and that starts with, like, preseason, right? If our guys only start working when the season starts, then it’s too late.

And, and so like we, we, we do, we have like a fall program and then it’s a little bit different, right? And college is mandatory. But it wasn’t necessarily the case before I got here, but the expectation here is like, if you’re not playing a fall sport. Because we have trimesters, it’s fall, winter, and spring, and basketball here is a winter sport.

But in the fall, we have a program, and I say to them, like, if you want to play at the next level, like, this is what you have to do. In order to get to that level. And there are no guarantees, but like, if you really want to play at this level, this is what you have to do. This is the work you have to put in. This is a kind of the type of commitment that you have to have.

And so we play pick up. Twice a week. I’m lucky enough here where there’s a weightlifting class that our guys can be a part of. They lift four times a week. They lift on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. And they can do that or they can do yoga and lift on their own, but they, if they’re not playing a fall sport, like they have to be involved in some type of physical activity.

And then I have a two year old now, so it’s a little bit more difficult, but luckily my wife loves me. So if a kid comes to me and says, Hey coach, I want to work out. Right. I tell him like, just text me, right. I want to work out. And what I’ll say now, because when I was younger, I do like four individual workouts, right.

And I wouldn’t care right before I got married, but now it’s like, hey, can you, can you get like, can you ask like three other people so we can only do like two instead of four individual workouts? But we get up at I get up at we, we work out at like 6. 15 in the morning. So, so I can be back to help my two year old eat breakfast.

Right? But we’ll get up in the morning, we’ll work out and then they’ll, they’ll, they’ll do what they have to do and go to class or we’ll work out in the afternoon. But like, I love that. Right? To me as a coach, Right? Helping my kids get better and helping them reach their goals and their dreams is everything.

Be cause at some point some of our kids go and play at the next level. And eventually I think they appreciate. All the work that they’ve done to prepare themselves when, when they actually get to that level and, and, and they’ll say, they’ll come back and, and, and one of the things I try to create a program, right?

And that just means like this sort of continuity with where, where the older. Kids who, who graduate are still connected to the kids who are currently at the school and they’re able to tell them like, listen, this is what we did. And this is why it’s important to do this stuff.

And if you really want to do this, right. This is what you got to do in order to be prepared. And to me, that’s really important. I love that about, especially like at North Meck, it’s hard to have like a connection with kids who went to the school before, but at a place like this it’s sort of baked in where kids have, I have access to the alum and things like that. And so I try to help our kids communicate as much as possible with like the older guys who, who came through the program and who get a chance to appreciate why all the work that they put in is paying off.

[01:19:45] Mike Klinzing: That legacy stuff is huge.  When you start thinking about building the program that can have the type of success that. You’ve been able to have and that you want to continue to have because players who are in the program now see that, Hey, this is what it took to get us here to where we are, and then the guys who have already gone through the program could say, Hey, if you want to.

Take this program to even higher heights. These are the things that we did. And these are the things that you have to do. And then obviously, as you build that network, you build those relationships between current players and former players, and it just kind of all cycles through on itself and has just a positive impact all the way around for everybody who’s involved in the program.

We’re coming up close to an hour and a half, but before we get done, I know I want to ask you a little bit about the accident that you had in 2019 that. I know from just doing some reading that clearly, as you’re probably be able to talk about here, it kind of changed your perspective and made you really think about what it was that you were doing.

So maybe just give us the. Maybe give us the short story of, of the accident. And then after, after you tell that story, we’ll, I’ll jump back in with one final two part question to wrap things up.

[01:21:05] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, it’s one of those things where. I just value life so much more now based on the adversity that I faced.

AndI didn’t do it, but I will do it because I wanted to reach out to Coach McKillop and, and just say thank you. Right? ’cause he was tough on us in a good way. And I talked about how he sort of, using basketball. He prepared us for life and all the sort of things that we would face long after the ball stopped bouncing.

And, and so three years ago I was Again, because of the life that I’ve lived, I’ve had so many opportunities in the relationships and things like that. But part of working at this place is like, I get to sort of help people understand what this place is and, and travel and talk about this place and, and, and help people apply to the school as an admissions officer.

So I had the opportunity to go to China. And so I was there for at least a month and loved it, right? It was an amazing experience because it’s just so different from anything that I’ve you know, done before that. And I think this is my, actually my second time going there.

And my mom is always like, She’s like, you’re in China, right? Like she cries, right? Happy tears because she’s like, I never thought like my baby would be in China, right? And so I’m spending time over there doing some work and, and, and, and doing some like mock interviews and talking about the school and things like that.

And. It’s three years ago. So I always feel like I’m way younger than I actually am. Right. That’s good, man. I feel the same way. Yeah. I love me. I like, I like, I like laugh and I like smile and I joke around maybe a little bit too much and something, but like, I’m not like a. I know how to be serious.

I know when to be serious, but that’s not like my thing. Like, that’s not my strength. Right. And so I was in China and, and but like that jet lag is no joke. So I flew back from, from China. On like the, like, maybe like the 25th so, cause I took time off, like you would get like a certain amount of, certain amount of days to take off.

So I took days off to go over there flew back and we have this program on our campus for, it’s called, it’s the It’s called ACE, it’s called ACE 9 at the time, but it’s basically a program where we bring kids that we admitted to the school and it’s a transition program and it’s a certain type of kid, a certain profile, but the, the, the idea is to help them get acclimated to the school before the year starts.

And so they’re here for five weeks. And, like, I help choose those kids and so, like, I try to connect with those kids and make sure that they know that, like, I’m there for them when they actually come when, when school starts in September. So this program is in July. And so we had a dinner for them, right?

So I flew back from China and I sort of acted like, okay, I’m back. Right. I got to go to work. Right. And, and, and part of that is because I love my job. Right. And I love what I do. And so it never feels like work. So I just, I and all it was, was just a dinner at I live on campus five minutes from my office. So I walked in my office and I, I, and we tried to get them, like, it was like a, I, I had the, the school credit card. So I bought him like a nice meal. We ate and we talked and they asked a lot of questions. And so we did that. And then I actually don’t remember what I did after that.

But I remember I don’t know where I was or anything like that because it, you know and I didn’t lose my memory, not like long term memory, but like that night is still a blur. But I clearly, I was driving and, and I think there’s a statistic that says like a lot of accidents happen, within like a certain radius of your house. But I was literally right up the street. Like I run by the place where I got in an accident all the time. So I fell asleep because like my body just shut down. Right. Cause it’s a 13 hour difference. So my body just shut down. So I fell asleep and ended up hitting the tree.

And so what I learned later on. Was that I was in the car unconscious for at least an hour because the house that I crashed in front of has a camera. And so that camera sees when my car hits the tree and then it sees the car still there until like the emergency people, the ambulance and all that stuff arrived to help me out.

And then, and then a lot of different stories, but what I keep hearing is that. Eventually they got to me they got me out of the car. And we live close to a town called Lawrence, which is like the next town over. And there’s a hospital that when our kids need to go to the hospital, that’s the closest one.

And so I think they took me to Lawrence, and I don’t remember any of this, but they took me to Lawrence and the people at the Lawrence. Because of the injuries I sustained. We’re like, we can’t help him. Like you have to get him to like Boston. And there’s a, luckily there’s a lot of good hospitals in the Boston area.

So I always joke around, I flew in a helicopter for the first time. So they transported me from Lawrence to, in a helicopter. To, to, to It’s a Tufts Hospital right outside of Boston. So I got to Tufts. I flew in a helicopter, but I don’t know if I actually flew in a helicopter because I wasn’t aware that I flew in a helicopter.

So, I still, like, if anybody listening wants to, like, put me in a helicopter, I’m happy to accept that. But they flew me to Tufts in a helicopter. I was there I was in ICU. For an unconscious and like basically in a coma for about three, four days ended up spending like three months.

And that hospital and then had to do about three months and in a inpatient like this rehab facility just learning how to, to, to walk doing physical therapy, speech therapy, and, and an occupational therapy. So what ended up happening when I got in a car accident I. So, I broke my ankle, but, like, nobody cares about that because the more serious injury was I hit my head so hard that they had to…remove part of my skull. So it’s, they did a procedure called a craniotomy where if they hadn’t removed part of my skull, my brain would have swelled up to the point where like it would have hit my skull and I would have died. Right. And so that’s the procedure that the Lawrence hospital couldn’t do that.

That’s why they flew me to Tufts. And so when I woke up in the hospital. Like I could, it’s, there’s some crazy pictures. But when I woke up in the hospital, like I could basically, like, imagine not having like a, what we call a skull flap or a brain flap, right. On one side of your head, like you, like, it’s just soft to the touch, right, in a very weird way.

And so at that time I didn’t, I was like, am I going to be like this for the rest of my life? Right. But like the, the first time I talked to the doctor, I think that was the first question. I was like, can you fix my head? And the answer was, yeah. But what I do have now is like a really cool scar, right?

And I always joke around. It’s a part of my story. But it’s a really cool scar, but eventually, so three months later. That part of my skull was in a special freezer, a bone freezer, and they sort of reattach that. And I have, using titanium screws.

So I had, it’s reattached to my head, but I still had that cool scar, but then I had to spend at least three more months in an outpatient rehab to. like walk and, and, and like do occupational therapy and speech therapy and stuff like that. Like I like, I had to sort of learn how to speak again and do a lot of memory stuff.

And it, and it was like one of those experiences where I’m glad I went through all the adversity, including losing my father, right? And sort of dealing with that, but also playing basketball and learning lessons. But like, it was, it was tough. It was scary. But I had so many people who were looking out for me, including the people who were a part of this Andover community, which I’m so thankful for, but also like so many people reached out, so many people figured out how to help.

People were cooking me meals, right? I gained so much weight because I was, I was laying in bed a lot, but I could eat, right? But like it was, it was, to me, I’ve never thought about it as, as a, as a net negative thing. Right. Like I’m so much better, I think because I went through that experience and, and like, it’s, it just shows that like.

I have every reason to be thankful about, like, the community that I, that I have, the friends that I have, and you know, it, it, it, it was, but it was scary, right? But the fact that I’m alive, the fact that I’m doing well, and, and, so, I think in that November, so that I got an accident in July, in November, I was, I was back coaching and I was trying to get into the gym to yeah, I was trying to get into the gym to coach, coach my kids.

So, because I didn’t have a part of my skull. I had to wear like this, this really like, and, and again, like I had to wear a helmet, right? Because if I got hit in the head, like they were like, you could die, right? If you get hit in the head. And so I’m in the, I’m sneaking in the gym, trying to like, like do workouts.

Right. And then one of my, she’s my neighbor, my AD, she worked with me in admission. She was the AD at the time. And like, she. She, not only did she like, she, I mean, because she cared about me, but she’s like, if I see you in the gym. Right? Like that was like, I, she’s scared, right? Because she said like, you cannot do this.

And you think you’re caring about these kids by being in, because I, I was, I needed that, right? I needed to be in the gym and I felt like I was letting my kids down. And they didn’t feel like that, right? They didn’t feel like that, but I was just like, I need to be in the gym, right? Cause who’s going to work him out, right?

Who’s going to call the college coaches to come watch him play? Who’s going to do all this stuff? And I was like, I have to be in the gym. And I’m in there with a helmet with like on crutches because I can’t walk. And like, trying not to get caught because I knew I wasn’t supposed to be in there. And like, Eventually my AD saw me and she, like, she basically, I, what I say, like, she, she used some strong words and say, she, she better not find me in the gym.

And then she followed up with the email and she cc’d my mom. So I was like, all right, so I can’t be in the gym, but I was back coaching in November. Right. And like, to me, like, that was, everything because like that was that sort of became I had a lot of purposes but like I wanted I wanted to fight as much as I as hard as I can to get back to the point where I could be with like that that that Part of my family, right?

My kids. And then the other thing I would say is like, I also, again, like I, I had played for coach McKillop. I had dealt with like him making me tougher. And you know, so I knew I was going to be okay. Right. I thought I was going to be okay. Like there was, there was doubt at times, but. Like it’s a part of my story and I am very thankful that I’m, I’m still alive.

And it makes me want to do everything I can to, to, again, to sort of reinforce what Coach McKillop said. Like, I want to continue to help people, right? I feel like I’m here for a reason, and in order, because I’m here, I, I, and I’m in this position, I can help people out. So, and people hearing that story, I think, I think it, it matters, I think, because they know how, like, extraordinary it is that I’m still alive, right?

I’m still breathing.

[01:34:53] Mike Klinzing: That’s an incredible story. I mean, it really is when you look at what you went through and then to be able to bounce back, not only fully bounce back from it, but bounce back from it as fast as you were able to. It’s, it’s pretty incredible. Let’s wrap up with one final two part question.

So part one is when you think ahead in the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge? And then part two of the question is when you think about what you get to do every day, every day, what brings you the most joy? So your biggest challenge. And then your biggest joy.

[01:35:26] Terrell Ivory: Biggest challenge.  That’s a great question. I mean, the greatest joy is I talked about this a lot, but it’s just seeing, seeing the kids that I work with, especially the basketball players, but also the other kids that don’t play basketball that I, that I’m able to develop relationships with, like seeing them, seeing them do well. But also seeing them not do well and working their way through it, right?

You know, happiness is something that I think is really important. But that doesn’t mean that, yeah, like everything’s okay all the time, right? And I think in order to be happy. You got to be able to deal with the, the, the tough times, right? And sort of develop coping mechanisms and be able to self reflect.

So helping kids sort of understand that and seeing them grow and learn and, and do amazing things, right? That, that brings me so much joy. I, the, the, the biggest challenge. Man, that’s a good question. What’s the biggest challenge? I, I, maybe, maybe it’s because I’m living, I’m living, I’m so, like, I’m so lucky, right? I don’t necessarily see… Because, because when I think about the school, right, this place is amazing, but it’s not perfect. But I don’t look at it that way. I look at it as an opportunity for our school, our community to, to get better.

So the biggest challenge I would say is…

I don’t know. I don’t know. Looking for ways,

[01:37:07] Mike Klinzing: Looking for ways to get better at what you’re already doing, I think is what I hear you saying.

[01:37:10] Terrell Ivory: Yeah. I guess so. Like, I mean, that’s, that’s a tough question for me because like  I see challenges as things that like help me get better, right.

Help me learn and, and help me put myself in a position to overcome something. Right. The life I live, I know things aren’t always be great, right? Like losing, I think back to like losing my father, right? Like I think about him all the time. And, and, and, and it makes me like sad sometimes that he’s not here to, to, to play with my 13 year old daughter, to see my two year old, or to meet my wife.

But I also know, like…

I learned a lot. I grew a lot from sort of dealing with like losing him and, and understand and how I had to like step up to, to, to be more responsible and, and help take care of my family. Cause my brother was away when he passed away. Right. And it was just, it was. It was, it was just me and my mom and so being there for her and, and us getting closer because of what happened to him.

So and this may seem a little cheesy, but I actually appreciate challenges, right? So I try not to see them as challenges as, as much as just opportunities, I would say, I guess.

[01:38:41] Mike Klinzing: No, that makes complete sense. All right. Before we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to share how people can find out more about you, your program.

If you want to share social media, website, email, whatever you feel comfortable with. And then after you do that, I will jump back in and wrap things up.

[01:38:56] Terrell Ivory: Yeah, I can do that. I have to get better. That’s a challenge. I have to get better at using social media. I would say Instagram. It’s TEIvory1981.

That’s my Instagram handle. And to learn more about the school www.andover.edu. And, if I can help you out please let me know. my email address is TIvory@Andover.edu. So. Yeah, that’s what I have.

[01:39:31] Mike Klinzing: I can’t thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to jump on with us.

Really, really appreciate it. It’s been a lot of fun. We touched on a wide range of different things that impacted you throughout your career. And again, I can’t thank you for enough for sharing all that with us. So appreciate that and to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.