Ryan Pannone

Website – https://birmingham.gleague.nba.com/

Twitter – @ryanpannone

Email – ryanpannone@gmail.com

Ryan Pannone is the Head Coach of the New Orleans Pelicans’ G League Affiliate, the Birmingham Squadron.  Pannone has coached the team, formerly known as the Erie BayHawks, since August of 2019.

Ryan has previously coached all over the world as both a head coach and an assistant, including stints in China, Germany, South Korea, Isreal, Slovakia and with the Angolan National Team.

Pannone’s early experiences as a coach included time in high school coaching as both an assistant and head coach at Oldsmar Christian School as well as working as an intern with NBA Player Development Coach David Thorpe in his early twenties to help prepare players for the NBA Draft.

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Listen, learn, and take some notes during this episode with Ryan Pannone, Head Coach of the New Orleans Pelicans’ NBA G League Affiliate, the Birmingham Squadron.

What We Discuss with Ryan Pannone

  • Becoming an assistant coach at his high school at age 18, working for his high school coach
  • Players’ skill levels have never been higher, but IQ and decision making haven’t kept pace
  • The need to teach players how to play without the ball
  • How can you impact winning without the ball in your hands?
  • Teach it, drill it, read it, use it, play it.
  • Understanding spacing both offensively and defensively
  • Looking for players that are high character, hard workers, coachable, that truly want to be better, that have a like-minded mentality of becoming a better player
  • Are your intentions self oriented or team oriented?
  • The winning profile of players that get called up from the G League
  • The character of a player is where success starts
  • “If you have low character players or players that are self absorbed, it doesn’t really matter how good of a coach you are.”
  • Players need two elite skills, one that gets them on the floor and one that keeps them on the floor
  • The role luck and the right environment plays in a player’s success at the NBA level
  • Embracing the suckiness – are you willing to pay the price?
  • Why he loves coaching players that love to pass
  • “I want to see what your body language is like when you have your worst game and your team wins.”
  • “How do you treat the people that you don’t think matter?”
  • “The more you invest and love the person, the harder you can coach the player.”
  • “When leaders stop learning, they stop being leaders.”
  • The role of self reflection and honest assessment of yourself in improving as a coach
  • “I surround myself with people that are much smarter than me and care about me enough to tell me the truth.”
  • Building a coaching philosophy
  • Learning through trial and error with lots of reps as a young coach
  • How players and coaches are developed differently in Europe compared to the United States
  • The requirements to become a coach in Europe vs. no requirements here in the US
  • Many college head coaches in the US have never been a head coach at any level, therefore they haven’t gotten reps in low pressure situations to build experience
  • How he continues to grow, learn, and evolve as a coach
  • Sharing his experience with his family and the joy that brings him

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[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here without my co-host Jason Sunkle this morning, but I am pleased to be joined by the head coach of the Birmingham Squadron of the G League Ryan Pannone. Ryan, welcome to the Hoop Heads Pod.

Ryan Pannone: [00:00:13] Thank you very much for having me.

Mike Klinzing: [00:00:14] Absolutely excited to have you on be able to dig into the diverse experiences that you’ve been able to have in the game of basketball throughout your career.

Let’s go back in time to when you were a kid, tell us a little bit about your first experiences with the game of basketball and how you got introduced to it. And what made you fall in love with it?

Ryan Pannone: [00:00:31] I was introduced to it because of my stepfather at the time. Growing up, my father was very good at sports and pretty much every sport he played.

I tried to avoid playing my, my father was a very talented athlete and his way of coaching was through. Yeah. And as a result, I kind of quit or avoided playing all the sports that he played. And it was [00:01:00] kind of introduced to basketball from my stepfather. And so I learned to play through that through him kind of fell in love with it in the sixth grade and the game plan as much as I could and went through high school.

And when I finished high school, some small college opportunities, but my high school coach at the time owned his own mortgage lending business and offered me an over paying job at 18 years old. And I took that job and became his high school assistant coach. And from there became the high school head coach where I played at 20.

And so that was kind of how I started my coaching journey.

Mike Klinzing: [00:01:42] As a player when you were growing. How were things different for you compared to like a kid comes up in the system today, let’s say the American system, how was the way you approach the game and just the way you train and play different to how things are today?

[00:02:00] Ryan Pannone: [00:01:59] Well, one, and one mix tapes were popular at the time and my goal is to be on an and one mix tape. So I would say the way that I played and the way that I coach, I would kill myself as a flyer. You know, it was totally different back then, there was no real player development or no individual trainers, or if you wanted to work on your game, you went to the park and with your friend and took a bunch of shots.

You didn’t really know what you were working on. There wasn’t as much individual instruction. And so I think the, the landscape of how youth players are worked with today is totally changed from 20 years ago.

Mike Klinzing: [00:02:41] What are the positives and negatives of the two systems like you think about the system that you grew up in and the way that you developed as a player versus the system that we have today, where we do have all that ability for kids to work with trainers, and we have the AUC system as opposed to go into the [00:03:00] playground.

Just what are your thoughts about the strengths and weaknesses of term in terms of how the end product of the type of players that are being produced?

Ryan Pannone: [00:03:07]  Well, I mean, I think for one when you were younger, you used to go to the park and play and there was going to be a difference in the physicality of when you were playing with older people and then in order to get on the court, right?

Like if you were taking shots that were bad shots the, the older guys is you were trying to stay on the court in order to win, we’re going to yell at you, you know? So you kinda had to figure out your, your place in your role. As you were playing outdoor on the parks with older players, as opposed to now a lot of players, aren’t really playing out outdoors with older men.

They’re kind of playing pickup games with guys more their age or guys within a few years of their age. And then I would say, obviously today’s players are far more [00:04:00] skilled with, with such an emphasis put on individual development. I mean, there was no question that the players today or becoming more and more skilled and obviously we can see it at all levels of basketball.

Mike Klinzing: [00:04:14] Yeah. There’s no question that the skill level, when you think about, I always equated to the average high school player, the back end of a high school roster, I think back to when I was playing, which is a long time ago now, but every team had 2, 3, 4 guys at the back end of the roster. Maybe they were two sport athletes or three sport athletes.

They weren’t really basketball players. They maybe had a level of physicality or he had the six, two football player that wasn’t very skilled, but go out and bang some people around. And those players are very few and far between, even at the high school of a anymore. So many players now, as you said, are more skilled because they just have more opportunity to get better coaching at a younger age.

And the number of kids that are working with trainers that are at all different skill levels, and it’s helped to raise the overall skill level of the game. [00:05:00] How do you see players from an IQ standpoint at the ages? Like you’re seeing a lot of guys in the G league that are obviously at the beginning stages of their professional career in a lot of cases, how do you work with, or how do you think about helping players to develop a better IQ?

Ryan Pannone: [00:05:18] Well, I mean, I think that’s a major problem within, in our country while our players are more. Skilled their understanding of concepts. And IQ to me is, is not where it should be compared to a lot of the international games specifically more so in Europe we spend all of this time with our youth players, working on individual skills, dribbling the basketball.

And when the reality of it is that the game is predominantly played without the ball. And I think so much of the game is being taught is ball dominant [00:06:00] and not without the ball and players learning conceptually how to play, but also an understanding of space and then re spacing, right? If you look at most of the development of players at all levels in the individual development 95% of it is put the ball in their hands, but more than 95% of the game is played for most players without the ball in their hands.

You know, in 2019, 2020 Russell Westbrook average, 37 minutes per game. How many minutes per game do you think he had the ball in his hands?

Mike Klinzing: [00:06:35] Probably seven

Ryan Pannone: [00:06:37] somewhere in there. I haven’t exactly. So for 30 minutes a game Russell Westbrook, who’s a triple double king. He’s got to figure out how to impact winning without the ball in his hands.

And I think that’s something that is lost in the development of our players today at all levels obviously it [00:07:00] starts at the youth level and on the way up to the pro level is the reality is. Players have to figure out how to impact winning without the ball in their hands. And I think that’s something that’s kind of lost.

Mike Klinzing: [00:07:17] Great point. How do you take that from that high level view down to the ground level? Let’s take it from, let’s take it. Let’s say you’re working with a middle school player. So I’m a trainer. I have a training business. I want to work with the middle school player and I want to do more with them than just have them work on individual offensive, moves and work on their shot.

I really want to get into what they should be doing off the ball, how to read screens, how to make cuts, how to function in the pick and roll. How do you do that? Is it almost to the point where you have to put the kids in small groups and small sided games, advantage, disadvantage type situations, as opposed [00:08:00] to training their skills in isolation?

One. And one player, is that kind of how you would envision it?

Ryan Pannone: [00:08:06] Combination of everything, right? If you’re thinking of it from skill acquisition which is the goal to decision-making to me, as you’re developing players, you have to think of player development. As one, teach it, drill it, read it, use it, play it.

So we want to teach the skill, the skill that we want the player to acquire, which is going to be more one-on-one oh, we want to drill the skill where they own the skill. So let’s say if you’re working on pick and roll passes, right, we want to teach the skill, that type of pass that we want to make.

Based off the read, we want to drill that skill. Let’s say you’re coming off of middle pick and roll. And the low man is pulled in from the weak side and you’re working on the hook pass to the weak side. We want to drill that skill till you own it, because if you can’t make that pass [00:09:00] one-on-one.

Then it’s useless. Right? Then we want to read the skills. So now we’re putting in fake defense to where the player automatically knows the read, but he’s still learning to read the defense until he makes the right read. Then we want to use the skill to where now we’re giving the defense a few options and forcing the player to read that so it’s, it’s not live right, but it’s not totally scripted where there is still some decision making process and that we want to play the skill right to where now it’s, it’s more random to where they have to make those reads randomly.

And I think for players in general decision-making, as I’m looking at the players within our level at the G league level, which is right under the NBA and guys are kind of in and out of the NBA the skill level is high decision-making as well. No, because everything that they’re working on is with the ball in their hands, but it’s not really decision [00:10:00] making.

And if we want to begin to drill things that impact 20 without the ball, number one, it starts with defense. You know, if defense is roughly, or is 50% of the game, then why is 50% of the individual work? Not based on defense, you know? So I think building out from individual defense to once again, teaching the skill, drilling the skill reading the skill, using the skill, playing the skill.

And so to me building that out from defense to then understanding conceptually, how to space, how to research base, how to move without the ball and not just from a, a cutting perspective, right? But we have to think of offensive spacing as a form of selfishness and unselfishness. And if you understand defensively, as we teach from a young age, right?

Ball moves, you move, right. Well, it’s very similar from a [00:11:00] spacing standpoint off the dribble, right? As the ball is coming towards you on the first dribble, you need to move as a ball is going away from you on the second Tribble, you need to move. You must constantly space and respace and think of spacing as a living organism.

It’s no longer static spacing.

Mike Klinzing: [00:11:16] How do you get players to buy into that team concept? When you’re talking about individual development, because as players come up through. Our youth basketball system today, they’re doing exactly what we’ve just been describing earlier, where they’re working on individual moves with the ball in their hand.

That’s the skill that they’re working on. And now they’re coming into a system they’re coming into a league where, Hey, now look, you’re probably not going to be the guy with the ball on your hands for seven minutes, a game like Russell Westbrook. So you have to figure out how to impact the game in other ways.

And yet it kind of goes against what the player [00:12:00] has done for their entire career in terms of developing their skills. So what are those conversations like? Or what does it look like as you’re trying to get players to understand how developing those off-ball skills and that ability to decision make and read the game both without the ball on offense and defensively, how do you get them to buy in.

Ryan Pannone: [00:12:20] Well one, I think it’s like everything that you start with, right? I mean, to me is you’re building a team, the foundation of your culture, right, is the character of your players. So one, if you are acquiring players that are high character, hard workers, coachable, that truly want to be better, that have a like-minded mentality of pursuing becoming a better player.

You know, that’s the start of it, right? Guys that are just, or players in general that are good people. Because then from there, everything becomes easier. If you have players that [00:13:00] are low character or not good people, then it doesn’t matter what you teach for either. They’re going to have their own way too.

Then it’s beginning to get them to understand basketball is not golf for tennis. It’s not an individual sport. And so for them to learn to understand. At the highest level, right? Everyone is within a role. And that trickles down to every level on every level of a team. There’s a leading scorer, right? In every level of the team.

That means that there’s 10, 11, 14, guys that have to learn how to impact winning, without the ball and getting players to understand what they have to do to put themselves in position, to be successful in what the value is of impact winning and how we impact when, and then the motive behind it. To me, everything comes down to intent.

What is your intent on everything that you do? Is it selfish is [00:14:00] about me or is it unselfish and example cutting. Right. If you cut to receive the ball then you’re selfish. If you’re slowing down on, you’re cutting to receive the ball. Then you’re selfish if you don’t cut to receive the ball.

A by-product of cutting is receiving the ball. You’re cutting in order to shift and distort the defense and to create an open shot for the team. A by-product of that would be, you may be the one with the open shop. You may be the one that receives the ball. And so I think trying to take players that are high character, people that care about other people that care about others in our world, right.

Is important. And then being able to build out and get them to understand. And the reality of it is it’s [00:15:00] a lack of information in a most players from a young age, aren’t really being taught this. So as a result, it’s more ignorance than arrogance. They don’t know. So when you’re trying to explain it to them  you’re teaching them something that they’ve been told by different coaches, but they don’t really understand it because it’s been beat into their head from such a young age, from a youth age with parents shouting in the stands. Shoot it, shoot it, shoot it. I recently was asked to coach my best friend’s son’s team in a rec league game.

He couldn’t make it. And so I was asked to coach it and you know, I get there in the game before the tablet and every time their kid touches ball, parents are yelling, showed it, showed it, shoot it. And so it is something that is beat into their head from a young age, the value of scoring. Right. And no, I think it’s [00:16:00] important that as players were being worked with from a youth level age, From their individual trainers and not so much team coaches, right?

Because team coaches are all trying to teach the unselfishness but it’s from the people that are surrounding them from the individual trainers to their parents, to everyone of getting them to understand what the value is, and really at every level, how you have to impact winning. And at the, at the G league level, the G league level is basically the junior college of professional basketball, right.

It’s kind of the only league in the world that no one really wants to be in. Everyone wants to make more money. Everyone wants to be in the NBA or improve their value internationally. You know, no one wants to play for $35,000 and. As a result, you have to get guys to understand what the value is of winning.

[00:17:00] And so in the G league for the last five years, over 80% of call-ups that weren’t by their own teams. So oftentimes in the NBA, they’ll kind of throw a bone to a player on their own G league team and give a 10 day for 80% of call-ups that were not with your own team. So another NBA team called a player up offer G league team that came off winning teams, less than 10% of players that were top 15 in scoring for the last five years, we’re able to earn an extended contract.

So if you got called up because you were one of the top 15 leading scores in the G league, less than 10% received a second, 10 day, or received a second contract,

Mike Klinzing: [00:17:43] That makes a ton of sense when you consider that the purpose of what an NBA team is trying to do right. Is win games. And if you are. Calling up a player from the G league and you’re calling up a player from a losing team.

It would seem that you would want to bring [00:18:00] in players that if they can’t impact winning on their G league team, it seems highly unlikely that they’re going to be able to impact winning on the NBA team. It just makes intuitive sense. How do you get players? This is what I think about when, when I’m, when I think about a player being at that G league level and how good you have to be to be able to get that opportunity.

And typically then those players have been players who have been stars and they’re stars at the youth level. They’ve been stars in high school. They probably were a star in college, and yet if they make it to the NBA, more than likely the reason why they’re going to get there is because they Excel or are elite at something that an NBA team needs.

It’s not likely they’re going to jump from the G league and become Russell Westbrook and half the ball in their hands. In the NBA. So how do you relay that to players and how does that tie into the individual skill development that you do within your team concept? In other words, let’s say you have a player that you [00:19:00] see that their strength is whatever.

They’re a big, that’s really strong in the pick and roll, and they can set the screen and get places and move, and that’s, that’s their elite skill. So how do you double down on that or get the player to see that? Look, if you can just really Excel at this, that that’s going to maybe get you a role in, get you an opportunity in the NBA versus the player who thinks I can still end up being a star.

In other words, how realistic are the players that you’re coaching on a day-to-day basis and then how do you help them to maximize the things they’re good at to possibly get them an opportunity to either go to the NBA? Or as you said, go over to Europe.

Ryan Pannone: [00:19:34] Well one, I think it reverts back to everything, reverts back to the character of the player.

If there’s one that I’ve learned overseas coaching and coaching in the G league this is going into year 18 for me if you have low character players or players that are self absorbed, it doesn’t really matter. You know, it doesn’t matter how [00:20:00] good of a coach you are.

Doesn’t matter how you try to deliver the message, because everything that they do is going to be about them. You know? So one, I think it goes into what you’re looking for as a coach. And so what we look for on our G league team is very focused on other characteristics, not just the basketball skills, right?

Because there’s enough talented players out there that you can find high character could people that care about the right things that also happened to me. Talented basketball players and so on. I think everything that you’re doing starts with that, and it doesn’t mean that players can’t be immature or players don’t need to grow in specific areas.

The question comes down is what is their heart and their heart? Are they truly good people? Do they care about others? Do they care about the right things? And then I think from there you can build it out, right? So now once you have people [00:21:00] that have some humility to them or people that truly want to be the best and people that have are open to being coached and want to grow within the game, those are the people that you can reach.

If you are recruiting or signing players that are self-absorbed. It doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t matter how good of a coach you are. Doesn’t matter who you are. I mean even the best coaches in the world can’t reach every player, you know? And at the end of the day, if a player has a closed heart, it doesn’t matter what you say or what you do.

It’s almost impossible to reach them. You know? So I think everything starts there. And then from there, it’s getting guys to understand the NBA specifically is a niche league, right? 95% of players are going to be players. And so to me, you have to have two elite skills. You have to have any lead skill that gets you on the floor.

You have to have an elite skill that keeps you on the floor. And what I mean is if you’re [00:22:00] elite skill is shooting. That’s gonna get you on the floor, but if you’re not making shots, you need another elite skill that keeps you on the floor otherwise, right. You’re just a hired gun. And that’s why the term three and D has become so popular within the MBA, because it gives you two lead skills.

One that gets you on the floor, which is going to be the shoot in a one-on-one that keeps you on the floor, which is going to be defensively and getting players to understand that so much of the G league is players try to show NBA teams what they can’t do instead of what they can do. You know, they’re so determined on I’m going to prove people that I can do this and that they’re wrong instead of just being great at what you can do.

And so, so much of what we do within our player development breakdown is defining their either elite skills. And then trying to develop another skill and taking it from good to [00:23:00] elite and because most players in the G league if they had to elite skills, which some do would be in the NBA and part of making the NBA, there’s a luck factor to it.

You have to get lucky, you have to be evaluated, right. You have to be signed to a team. That team has to then give you an opportunity, right system, right coach, right chance in order to make it, I mean, there are quite a few players in the G league that in my opinion, are NBA level players.

They just need a break. And the reality of it is that’s for most players you can take LeBron James, and you can put them on any system, any coach, any team in the world. And it’s still going to be LeBron James. Well, I, if you were to take a role player or a guy like Duncan, Robinson he has to have the right environment that is conducive to his success [00:24:00] in order to make it.

And now that he’s made it and everyone sees the best word to use, I’m sure he could be successful on a lot of teams, but you know, the, what the Miami heat put into it. Is what helped made him successful? The belief that the Miami he breathed into him is what helped make them successful. And he talked about having imposter syndrome was he really this good?

Is he good enough to make it? And you know, the direct communication that he had between Erik Spoelstra, pat Riley, plus the belief that the Julie coaches gave him, and then the opportunity that the JV coaches gave him help create the environment for him to be successful and to where if you put them on 29 other teams and I’ll, he could be playing in Europe.

Mike Klinzing: [00:24:52] Absolutely. I think that you hear that every year when it comes to the draft in all sports. I mean, [00:25:00] not just basketball, you think about, if you can go and get to the right organization with the right coach, the right system, that players can develop into something, right. They might not have been, had they gone somewhere else.

So for you guys with the Pelicans, what’s the process like, because you’ve been talking several times about the character of a player, and then if you have a player with the right character that cares about getting better, that cares about winning, that tries to understand what it is that you’re going to be teaching them and that what you’re, how you’re trying to help them.

How do you guys, what’s your process for finding those players who’s involved in the process? What does the scouting look like when you’re thinking about signing a player who’s in the room to discuss that? How does that process play out for the pelicans organism?

Ryan Pannone: [00:25:50] Well, I mean, for me, I can speak more to the G league side than the pelicans organization.

You know, cause that’s more above my pay grade. I’m not [00:26:00] in that room and you know, but I can tell you what David Griffin, Trajan Langdon. And what coach Willie Green are looking for because it’s the same thing that we’re looking for within the organization and number one, what we want to know and is do you love the game?

And it seems strange, but a lot of players don’t really love basketball. They love playing basketball. They love what comes with basketball, but they don’t actually love basketball and a mentor of mine named David Thorpe. Who’s the best player development guy I’ve ever seen, who gave me the big breaks within my career.

And in the coaching philosophy that I have today is kind of based off a lot of his player development philosophy has a saying that says, you have to embrace [00:27:00] the suckiness. Right. And the reality of it is. No matter what you want to be good at. There are things that come with it that you don’t want to do, but if you embrace the suckiness, it’s going to allow you to be successful.

I’m not sure if you’re much of a movie watcher, right. But you know, there’s a very famous line in a movie where Jennifer Anniston tells Vince Fon I want you to want to do the dishes Von responds with why would I want to do the dishes, you know? And it’s really, it’s a great point.

And, and if we think of in marriage, if you want to be successful, right? If there’s all kinds of things that you have to do within your marriage on whether, as a husband or wife or with your spouse, that you have to embrace in order to be successful, and you have to not just do it, you have to do it with a good [00:28:00] attitude and you have to do it well.

And I’m not sure what you can be successful at if you don’t embrace the suckiness. And so, number one, for us as players that love the game, and that means if you love the game, you have to embrace the things that come with it. You have to embrace practice, embrace the scouting report, embrace the preparation, maybe things that you don’t want to do.

And that’s fine, but how do you handle what you don’t want to do to, what are they like as a person? You know, do they have a good heart? Are they a good person? Do they care about others? Right? Because that’s, that’s at the end of the game. If we’re trying to take a player that from a youth age is almost become individualized and specialized in their individual development, but it is not an individual game.

Right. Then we have to then take players that care about other people. Because if you care about [00:29:00] other people as a person, Then you will care about other people as a player, and you will care about your teammates, new care about the greater good. And those are two things that are extremely important and then players that can figure out how to impact winning.

And I, I think if you’d take a look at, at some of the guys that were drafted by the Pelicans it’s like their, their DNA is winning herb Jones is DNA is winning Trey Murphy’s extremely talented and not only is he talented he’s extremely humble. And I mean, I think those are characteristics that are going to be looked for within basketball and within the pelicans organization.

And that trickles down to what to what the team is looking for.  We want guys [00:30:00] that we always look at for me personally, I want guys that love to pass that enjoy passing at every position, especially outside of point guards, because if you’re 2, 3, 4, and five enjoyed passing, right then automatically it’s going to promote ball movement and going to promote them selfishness.

And we want to evaluate guys that enjoy their teammates success, you know? So I try to evaluate players. I want to see what your body language is like when you have your worst game and your team wins. What do you like on the bench? What do you like when new teammate makes a great play? Are you still so self-absorbed because you’re not playing well and you’re winning.

What’s your, what’s your reaction to your coach? What’s your reaction to Ms. Shots? What’s your reaction to your teammate’s success or you celebrating your teammate’s success? Or are you so self-consumed because you [00:31:00] are not playing well, even though your team is winning and those are kind of the characteristics that we’re going to look for, because if the reality is right, if you’re building an organization based off culture and you have one guy that is extremely self-absorbed, that can break or dilute your culture,

Mike Klinzing: [00:31:26] How do you evaluate those things that you’re looking for?

In other words, when you talk about a player who loves the game, and when you’re looking for, are you doing that in person? Are you doing that through talking to the player? Are you doing that through. Research by talking to players, former coaches, what’s the process like to determine who fits those characteristics?

Ryan Pannone: [00:31:51] Everything that you can obviously with COVID, it’s a little bit different, but you know, within the pelicans organization in general, we have really [00:32:00] good Scouts that are evaluating more than you as a player. You know, th they’re evaluating those pieces of you. And like I said, with David Griffin and Trajan Langdon and Willie Green, it starts from the top down of what the importance is of what we are looking for in the person.

And it’s obvious. You know, you may have looked for in a player, but I think obviously who you are as a person can define the success of who you will become as a player. And so one, it starts from the top down and what they’re looking for, and then our scouting department does an excellent job.

You know, they’re doing an excellent job, not just of evaluating the unit as a player, but speaking to your coaches, speaking to your high school, coaches, speaking to your AAU coaches, your college coaches, speaking to the grad assistants to the athletic trainer, right? How do you treat the people [00:33:00] that you don’t think matter?

You know, cause that’s really going to say a lot about you and your character how do you treat the people that you don’t think matter that can’t really help you? And those are people that our scouting department is communicating with and they’re building the relationships. What do the coaches around the league say?

Because the reality is the coaches around your league are going to have a pretty good feel for the player as a person, because a lot of them would have recruited them. And a lot of them are going to hear the rumors of what’s going on. And a lot of them are going to be evaluating that body language throughout the game.

And then obviously trying to see them in practice format and individual work and what it’s like, and, and those areas and evaluating them in person on, on film of what their body language is like in the game. You know being around Coach Green at summer league one thing that he talks about every day is [00:34:00] just being thankful being thankful for the opportunities that we have been thankful for, that the people that are around us and what we’re given and thankfulness is a big part, I believe in our evaluation and what we want.

Mike Klinzing: [00:34:15] It’s so true. I think when I look at my own life, my own career in both ends. In the game of basketball and as a parent now I think that if you can instill that sense of gratitude and being thankful for what you have and looking, looking at your circumstances and understanding how lucky you are to be in the places that you are.

I think you just set yourself up for more success and you set yourself up for being happy. I think when you’re always looking for what somebody else has and looking for the next opportunity, and you’re not right where you are in the moment that that’s when you get yourself in trouble. So I think if you can find players and if you can build that kind of culture, to me, that’s a winning culture.

Let’s go back in time to the beginning of your coaching [00:35:00] career. What was something right away that you just loved about coaching? What stood out for you when you had that first opportunity as an assistant high school coach? What was it about coaching that just grabbed you and said, man, this is what I want to do for the rest of.

Ryan Pannone: [00:35:15] How you can impact people one way or another. You know, like I was pretty determined from a young age that I always kind of had a passion for player development and for working with players. So that’s one, I thought I could really be in the gym all the time with our guys work with our guys, help get them better, but I also wanted them to go to college.

I wanted them to have the opportunity so impacting people and impacting their lives and knowing that I did as a high school assistant and as a head coach is I went through and built email databases of every division, one division, two division three, and AI in junior college, in the country from head coach to assistance and director of [00:36:00] basketball operations.

And then I made sure all of our games were filmed. We played obviously during the regular season. We played spring summer, fall in some way, shape or form with our team. And I sent out three to four highlight videos per year of each of our players at the level. I thought that they could play at to try to impact their life and try to help them go to college.

And when the players saw how much I cared about them and how much I cared about their future, it allowed me to really coach them hard as players. And from that kind of develop my philosophy of the more you invest and love the person, the harder you can coach supplier. And so, I mean, that was right away.

What kind of it wasn’t about the wins and the losses. It was. How do you impact and help people and impact and help players achieve their dreams?

Mike Klinzing: [00:36:54] Being able to have an impact on kids players through. [00:37:00] Something that you love to me is one of the most powerful things about being a basketball coach is just the fact that here’s a game that you love, that I love that lots of people love.

And yet we get to share it through the game of basketball and have an impact on people. And to me, that’s really actually what coaching comes down to. I mean, you’ve said it obviously wins and losses are important. You’re coaching at the professional level where wins and losses are important player development’s important, but ultimately you’re also in the people development game.

And I think that’s something that young coaches sometimes forget. Sometimes young coaches will tend to get caught up in that X’s and O’s piece, and that I have to win and I have to get to my next job. And it sounds like you kind of invested right away that, Hey, I’m where I’m at. And I’m going to do the best for the players that are in front of me, regardless of their ability, what was something that.

You weren’t very good at, as a coach. When you look back on the beginning of your career that you’ve had to work at and you’ve had [00:38:00] to improve at over time,

Ryan Pannone: [00:38:02] Everything.

Mike Klinzing: [00:38:07] that’s an honest answer, right? I can, I can totally concur. I think anybody in any profession could probably understand that answer

Ryan Pannone: [00:38:13] Everything. I mean it’s everything that you’re teaching at 18 years old, 20 years old, 25 years old, if you don’t look back at 36 years old and you’re like, I know nothing.

And then you stopped growing. And you know, when leaders stop, when leaders stopped learning, they stopped being leaders. And you know, for me every year, if I don’t feel like I’ve really. Improved as a coach, whether it’s tactically, right, or how to develop relationships or how to inspire players or leadership qualities then I’ve failed my players that I’ll be coaching because I didn’t put everything into it.

And [00:39:00] I’ll fail myself in my commitment to what I want to do as a coach. And so you know, for me, work ethic was always a strength, but the reality of it is when you look back at it you, you knew nothing you don’t know anything about basketball as a coach at that age how can you possibly and if you’re not just gaining experience, but you’re pursuing knowledge and you’re pursuing growth as a coach and you have to have developed in every area. And if not, then you become stale. And I think in like players, there are some coaches that are extremely talented coaches that are born with some gifts to where they just get it. They just understand it.

They just see it, it can process information quicker. There maybe they have an identic memory, you [00:40:00] know, and for me, that wasn’t my case. So I had to work extremely hard to try to learn and grow in every area possible.

Mike Klinzing: [00:40:07] What was, and is your process for improving from season to season as a coach? So your season ends, you go back, you reflect on your performance, your team’s performance over the course of the season.

How do you go about. Planning to get better from one season to another. What does that look like? Is it film study? Is it visiting other coaches? Wwhat process do you go through

Ryan Pannone: [00:40:33] Everything? I truly try to pursue everything. You know, one, it starts with self-reflection honest assessment of self reflection of where I have to get better, where I have to grow.

We do an exit interview with our players every year. And a big portion of the exit interview is what they think we could have done better, how they think we could have handled situations better. [00:41:00] How could we do scouting better? What area do they feel I could grow from how I communicate in timeouts, how I communicate in pressure situations.

What we do in terms of scouting is, is one. And then two I think being able to. Really chase and pursue knowledge. I mean, I, I tried to go to practices. I try to watch practices online. I try to watch clinics online. You know, when I was younger I used to watch a clinic a day and take notes and chop it up.

I don’t do that as much anymore, but I do watch film every day and I’m studying each clip for offensive and defensive purposes, whether it’s skill, work, concepts, playbook and tracking and organizing that. And then it’s communicating with other coaches we’re just out at summer league and at summer [00:42:00] league in Vegas same thing.

I try to think of how can I gain an edge over all of the competitors. And so. I spend the mornings meeting with coaches because it’s kind of an access that you have where hundreds of coaches are in one place. I try to spend each morning meeting with coaches and going over often sieve concepts, defensive concepts, player development, leadership, communication, and same thing at night.

I don’t drink. I don’t go out. I don’t party.  I try to take advantage of being in Las Vegas at that time. So I try to get any growth, possible podcasts, video, everything that I can do to pursue knowledge.

Mike Klinzing: [00:42:50] Do you have one or two mentors in the coaching profession that you rely upon, that you reach out to [00:43:00] when things are going really well or when things maybe haven’t gone the way you hoped, is there somebody who fills that role?

Ryan Pannone: [00:43:08] Absolutely. You know, I’ve, I mean, I think every coach has got to have surround themself with one people that are smarter than them. And then two people that will be honest with them, you know? And I mean, I think that’s, most people don’t want to hear criticism. Most people don’t want someone to be honest with them.

They want to be told what they want to hear. And I’ve been very fortunate from a young age as a coach that different people have mentored me and different people have been willing to help me and different people have been willing to tell me the truth. You know, they’ve sat me down and said, Hey you’re arrogant and you’ve accomplished nothing.

You know, you need to humble yourself. No I’ve been around coaches that will [00:44:00] tell me, Hey you need to change the way you dress. You need to change the way you want to be seen as professional dress professional. You know, so I’ve, I’ve been fortunate from a very young age. And even now that I surround myself with people that are much smarter than me and care about me enough to tell me the truth.

Mike Klinzing: [00:44:20] I think that most coaches have people that they can go to that help them to crystallize their decision-making process and help them to forge what their authentic and defensive philosophies are going to be, how they want to build their team. I think about what you talked about earlier in the podcast with how important the quality of the person is forget about the quality of the player, but how important the quality of the person is and how that just trickles down and impacts.

Your entire culture. How long into your career were you before you AE [00:45:00] developed your philosophy? And that could be your philosophy in terms of culture, your offensive defensive system, but how far into it were you before you felt confident that you were on the right path and obviously the game is evolving and changing.

And so it’s not like you developed a philosophy and now it’s set in cement, but at what point in your career, did you feel confident that what you were doing had your team and your players and yourself on the right track? If that question makes sense,

Ryan Pannone: [00:45:28] Probably 22. I mean, we built in terms of work ethic, ideal philosophy, culture, player development, sending guys to college at 22, I think at a, at a pretty good grasp now.

Of what was right and what can work. My actual understanding of basketball was not very high, [00:46:00] but how we wanted to defend what was important in defending what was important. And oftentimes what was important in building relationships with players? I think the general spectrum of it was good. And I’ve built upon that every year.

Of course, my philosophy at 22 years old was not the same at 25, which wasn’t the same at 30, and it’s not the same at 36. My, my philosophy is continuously adapting and evolving with what that I learned. But in terms of when I knew I was on the right track, Probably 22 years old and, and not enough, we were very successful.

We were doing things that not many other teams were doing and how we wanted to build. And I was smart enough to try to model a lot of [00:47:00] things that I did after Kevin Sutton at Mont verdict academy and on Kevin Sutton built Mont vert academy from a team that went oh and 30, before he took over to 30 and after three years turn Mont vert academy to what it is today.

And he also had began to build the program at Montrose Christian, where Stu Vetter took over and everything. I was fortunate that him as a young coach, along the Stan Jones at Florida state and David. Took me in and mentor me. And I was smart enough to try to copy and replicate things that they were doing that made them successful.

And naturally all of that has continuously evolve. But I think the way that we did things and I was speaking with a coach at some of the, some of my defensive philosophy at 22, I still use today. And I actually, I don’t [00:48:00] understand why some of those concepts aren’t being used and in other places and it’s naturally different things that I figured out on my own.

A lot of it on copied and stolen, tweaked, and evolved from many other coaches, which is probably what I’m best at is stealing, evolving and tweaking.

Mike Klinzing: [00:48:21] That’s the lifeblood of a coach, right? I mean, there’s very few of us that are inventing. Completely new things. Most of it is something that you see and you’re like, oh, I like that.

And then you take it and you adjust it and you try to make it fit into what your personnel is capable of doing and what your philosophy is. I think that’s probably the route that most coaches go.

Ryan Pannone: [00:48:43] Yeah, it’s something that’s helped me and I think what people don’t understand is being a head coach from 20 to 25.

And all at that time, I, I coached a thousand games between spring, [00:49:00] summer, fall, AAU et cetera. And I was fortunate enough to have a lot of trial and error in places that you know, were obscure for your coaching mistakes or way things that you did it, wasn’t going to cost you your job. And as a result, we were able to build a successful high school program.

And for me having that experience of being a head coach and getting the trial and error and being able to coach through mistakes I think has given me a huge advantage over a lot of other people at 36 or becoming a head coach for the first time or 46. And you know, to me, I think having that experience is extremely valuable.

And oftentimes I think people mistake, quality [00:50:00] of coaching still to this day, some of the best coaches I’ve actually coached against our high school coaches. And I mean, there’s great coaches everywhere and. You know, there are things that I’ve stolen from high school coaches that I played against that I still use today at the pro level that are successful.

Mike Klinzing: [00:50:18] That is something that we’ve been able to discover by doing the podcast for sure is we’ve been able to talk to coaches at all levels. We’ve talked to youth development coaches we’ve talked to high school coaches, we’ve talked to college coaches, talk to pro coaches. And what you find is that there’s a common thread between that runs through people who have been successful.

We’ve already touched on a couple of those. They love the game. They have a growth mindset and want to continue to get better. And the best coaches are ones who are focused on where they’re at at the moment, a high school coach. If you’re coaching in high school, just the idea that you’re going to have tremendous [00:51:00] success and then be able to move up to the college level or at the college level.

And you’re just looking for your next job. I think it’s really difficult to be able to have success. Running your career that way. I think you have been a great example of pouring everything that you have into what you’re doing. And I think about you putting together that database of coaches and coaching staffs and doing that for your high school players.

I’m guessing there’s not a lot of high school coaches out there that are doing that. We’re doing that are willing to do that. And yet that’s what set you apart. That’s what enabled you to be able to catch the attention of someone when you’re getting together with them. When you’re networking, when you’re building relationships, which allows you to get your next job and get continuous to give you opportunities.

You’ve had some extensive experience with European basketball. How did European basketball when you first were exposed to it, how did that [00:52:00] expand your horizons as a coach? In terms of the way you thought about the game? What were some things that when you initially got there. You were like, wow, this is something that I hadn’t thought about before.

Can you boil that down to one or two things? I mean, I know it’s a broad question, but maybe just narrow in on one or two things.

Ryan Pannone: [00:52:18] Ooh, that’s tough. I would say that coach in, in Europe I don’t want to say change my life, but it changed my life because I see the game totally different.

And you know, to me, and in Europe is from a tactical, purely tactical standpoint is the best coaching in the world. You know, the game is far more tactical than it is here in America. And that comes from a few reasons for how coaches are developed and what the emphasis is on winning. Everything that they do there is the game [00:53:00] is taught and emphasized totally different.

Then the way it is in America.  America is very much spacing as static. Isolation is heavy. And obviously that comes from a youth age on up for how guys are taught and individual skill work to how the game is played. It’s throughout different youth levels and college levels. And then the understanding of conceptual decision-making the reality of it is those guys read the game at a much higher level in terms of players, because they’re taught to read the game at a much younger age are taught to make decisions at a much younger age and the way that they’re trained, the way that they’re coached, the way that the coaches are developed in the way that the game is taught.

To me overall is a much better way [00:54:00] and a much higher level and you know, everything that they do there has a purpose of impacting winning. And it has an impact of the team and everything within European basketball specifically is about the team and is about winning. You know, so it’s, it’s totally changed my life.

You know, when I was first trying to coach in Europe like I couldn’t understand that. I thought, okay, I was a successful high school coach in China and works with 50 plus NBA players individually. You know, I’m going to be able to coach in Europe. People are gonna want to hire me because of my background.

And what I didn’t understand is that in Europe, they don’t, they’ve gone away from hiring American coaches because. We don’t understand their game of basketball. And I couldn’t [00:55:00] possibly understand that until I was there. I was like ah, it’s America’s game and then you get there and you’re like, Hmm.

You know what? I really don’t understand anything about basketball. And so for me, it totally changed my coaching belief, philosophy, how I see the game.

Mike Klinzing: [00:55:19] So I want to ask you one thing that you just mentioned, and we’ve talked a lot about how we develop players. Now we can improve that system. And you mentioned that the way that Europe develops coaches is different.

So just briefly, if you could wave that magic wand and improve the way we develop coaches in the United States, what does that look like? What’s the ideal system for developing good coaches at all levels. How do we do that?

Ryan Pannone: [00:55:47] Well, there’s no requirement to be a coach. No. The reality of it is tomorrow, if you got head NBA, coaching job, or a head [00:56:00] college coaching job, you can hire your mailman.

There is no requirement in a lot of people because of the way that our system is now set up, which I believe has changed over the last 20, 25 years. It stunts the growth of coaching. You know, here, if you’re going to become a coach, there’s a few routes. One, you’re going to be a manager in college. Then you’re going to be a GA in college.

Then you’re going to be a video guy in college, then a director of basketball, operations in college. Then you’re going to be an assistant coach in college, and then you’re going to become a head coach in college. And by the time you become a head coach in college, you’ve never actually coached before.

It’s so true or we’re going to be a manager in college. You’re going to be a GA in college. We’re going to be an intern in the video room and the NBA. Then you’re going to be a video guy in the NBA, then a player development guy in the NBA, then assistant coach in the [00:57:00] NBA and then a head coach in the NBA.

And you’ve never actually coached before, or you’re going to be a former player and you’re going to either become a head coach and it never coach are going to be a former player and become an assistant coach and then become a head coach and never actually coached before. And so in Europe, it’s totally different to where in order to become a coach, you have to get a coaches license and that coaches license will allow you to coach, let’s say 12 years old, then you have.

Take more courses and be able to coach 14 year olds and 16 year olds and 18 year olds. Then you get to be a professional assistant coach. But when you’re a lot of times a professional assistant coach, you’re also still coaching an under 18 team or 21 under 21 team, depending on the country or level that you’re at, obviously at the higher levels.

And sure enough, you’re a league year old cup or what the budget of a team is. You know, you’ll just [00:58:00] be a full-time assistant, but even as a full-time assistant, you’ve been a head coach before. And then when you become a professional head coach, while it may be the first time you’ve become a professional head coach, it’s not the first time that you’ve been a head coach, right?

You’ve had to run an organized practice. You’ve had to deal with guys that aren’t getting enough shots. They’re not getting enough minutes. You’ve had to deal with conflict within the locker room and you’ve had to deal with selfishness. You’ve had to figure out what your culture is. You’ve had to figure out how to build culture.

You’ve figured out what your offensive philosophy is, what your defensive philosophy is. And here in America, it’s not, you’re not growing as a coach that way. And to me, I think it stunts the growth and it doesn’t mean that we don’t have smart coaches. We have very, very smart coaches, right? There’s there’s no monopoly on the game from country to race, to [00:59:00] gender, to former player, non former player.

No one has a monopoly on the game, but the reality of it is I don’t think there’s any head coach that when they became a head coach for the first time, regardless of the level of college NBA high school youth level after five years of being a head coach slips back and say, yup, I was better when I first started or, yeah, I’m as good as I was when I first started.

You know, the reality is you can gain so much, any different experiences from being a head coach at a, at a younger level. So when you asked me, when did I have it figured out at 22 years old, I had an offensive philosophy. I had a defensive philosophy. I had a player development philosophy. Now it might not have been any good, but if you were to ask me what was my offensive philosophy, I could respond to it.

There’s the question. And you may hear it be think [01:00:00] now that’s not very good, but you would also hear it and think he at least has a philosophy. And so as I spent a lot of time talking with young coaches just in Las Vegas had summer league coaches that are 30 years old has come what’s your offensive philosophy.

They couldn’t answer. What’s your defensive philosophy. I couldn’t really answer. Oh, I’ll send it to you. Bye. So, so I mean, and it’s not a knock on them. It’s not, it’s not their fault. They’ve just never been put in position to do it. And in Europe you’re, you have to be a head coach of 12 years old and 14 year olds and 16 year olds.

And so you get to develop and identify those philosophies and like, I don’t want a philosophy that’s regurgitated of what the head coach of the team is that you worked [01:01:00] for. What’s your philosophy because my philosophy may be different. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t, I don’t steal and take from each head coach that I worked for, because for sure I do there, they were all very, very smart, very successful.

So I steal intake from everyone, but I take that and I mold my own philosophy and. You know here I it’s, it’s totally different. And you know, I think that your only way to continue to develop as a coach is through experience and oftentimes coaching at a higher level, we looked down on, let’s say a high school coach.

And the reality of it is a high school coach that’s been coaching for 10 years. You put a board in his hand and pressure situations. It’s not his first time doing it. And yeah. Okay. It’s not a D you know, he’s not getting paid a million dollars, but at the end of the [01:02:00] day, being prepared through experience in those pressure situations and how you’re going to be prepared.

And the mistakes that you make and you’re able to learn and grow from those mistakes are huge. I mean a high school coach, that’s been a head coach for 10 years has had multiple end of the game pressure decisions that he has messed up, that he has made the mistake of and is able to learn and grow from that.

And so, okay. This was my mistake here. How do I do it better next time? Okay. I mess this up here. How do I do it better next time to where if you’re getting your first head coaching job at a very, very high level where all of the lights are on you and the pressure situation is still the same.

You may not be able to coach through those mistakes because the reality of the coaching profession and the higher level you give up, right? The, the stability is less and less. And so I think that is something that [01:03:00] I would change Erica, for sure.

Mike Klinzing: [01:03:02] It makes a ton of sense. The stakes are so much higher. When you’re a head coach and I don’t care if that’s at the high school level or that’s at the pro level, I’ll give you an example from my own experiences.

So I started out after I graduated from college and I was a JV head coach for two seasons, and I had quite a bit of autonomy and I made tons of mistakes and I was a terrible coach at that point. But to your point, I got some reps trying to figure out what is it that I believe, how do I substitute? I’m the person that has to drop the last second inbounds play to try to get us a game winning shot.

And then I left that job. When I got a full-time teaching position, I became a varsity assistant coach at the high school level. And I probably did that for eight or nine years before I ended up going back for one season to be a JV head coach again. And what I went from being an assistant coach back to being a head coach.

That was a [01:04:00] huge transition for me. Like it was difficult to go from being the assistant where I’m sitting on the bench and I’m keeping track of timeouts during the game. And I’m keeping track of simple things to all of a sudden, I’m the guy back, standing up having to make decisions. And ultimately those wins and losses.

And we’re talking about a JV high school basketball game, but all of a sudden those wins and losses were back on me. And it’s a completely different experience. I couldn’t imagine going from being an assistant coach, my entire career to suddenly I’m the head coach of a college program, let’s say to me, that transition would be incredibly difficult.

So I think it’s a great point that you make about the European system, that if you had head coaching experience at the lower levels and you continue to have that experience, even while you’re. Serving as an assistant at a higher level. Ultimately you’re ending up with a coach. That’s more prepared to have success.

Ryan, this has been great. I want to ask you one more question before we wrap up. It’s a two-parter [01:05:00] what is the biggest challenge that you see ahead in the next year or two for you in your career? And then number two, what is the biggest joy that you get every day when you wake up in the morning from doing what you do on a daily basis?

Ryan Pannone: [01:05:17] Biggest challenge ahead I think is to continue to evolve, adapt and develop as a coach, to the continuous evolving of our players. You know, how we reach our players today is different than how we reach our players from 10 years ago. And the reality of it is we have to continue to be able to connect and reach with them.

You know I spent a lot of time in some of those. Okay. Learning our new terminology from Coach Green and watching the players that we’ll have with us at times during the duty league. But I spent a lot of time watching him [01:06:00] and his demeanor, his coaching, demeanor, his coaching body language the way that he communicates with the players, the way that he interacts with the players, the way that he works with the players is at the highest of high levels.

It’s extremely impressive and his ability to remain calm in tough situations, I think really helped us win a lot of games at summer league. And so I think is the way that social media is evolving the way that. Technology is evolving, changes the ways that we have to continue to interact with players.

And so for me, I think it’s just continuing to be as focused on that as I am focused on the tactical and technical [01:07:00] side of basketball, because you really have to, everyone talks about it. You really have to be able to reach your players. Now, I think people undervalue X’s and O’s like you hear it all the time.

So guy, everyone knows X’s and O’s no, they don’t.

You also have to be able to connect with your players. I think as a coach, you have to be well-developed because if you connect really well with your players, but you don’t understand the game, tactically the connection with them for players that really want to win Is going to die out, right?

Because you’re, you’re no longer putting them in possession position to be successful on the wind games. And if you’re really good tactically, but you can’t relate or connect to your players, then they’re not going to listen to what you’re saying. And you know, so continuing to learn how to build relationships and how to best [01:08:00] coach our players, how to best get them to want to digest the information from the scatter report, how to best remember our play calls, our defensive system, how to best build relationships with them that are authentic and are not from a selfish standpoint where the player feels like they’re being used is most important.

And the joy that wakes me up every day, I’d have to say it’s changes. Definitely my kids. And I mean like, yeah, I love basketball, but you know, you wake up and my son is daddy, you want to a big battle with me I’ll be flashing zoom, you know? I mean, that’s that, that’s what makes me happy.

I mean, I I’d love chasing knowledge. I love trying to get better. I love the challenge and the competitiveness of trying to be the best that I can be and be successful. [01:09:00] You know, but what really makes me up and to be happy is to be to be a father, to my son and my daughter, and to be a husband. And that’s like the most exciting part of the job.

Mike Klinzing: [01:09:11] Absolutely. There’s nothing better than being a parent. Anyone who is a parent understands that anyone who is not, I think it’s really difficult to understand how important your kids become to you once they’re born and how it sort of makes you subservient to what they need and it changes your perspective.

And so I think that’s a great answer before we get out. Ryan, can you share how people can get in touch with you? How can they reach out to you? Find out more about you, whether you share social media, email, whatever you feel comfortable. And then I’ll jump back in and wrap things up.

Ryan Pannone: [01:09:42] Could share everything.

Email is RyanPannone@gmail.com. Phone number (727) 251-4525. Social medias @RyanPannone

Mike Klinzing: [01:09:59] So if [01:10:00] you’d like to reach out to Ryan, his door is open. I can’t thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule this morning to join us, spend a great hour and 15 minutes or so, and really informative.

And I appreciate your time to everyone out there. Thanks for listening. And we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks.