PATRICK MCGRAIL – WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY MEN’S BASKETBALL ASSISTANT COACH – EPISODE 1168

Website – https://washubears.com/sports/mens-basketball

Email – mcgrail@wustl.edu

Twitter/X – @PTMcGrail13/

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Patrick McGrail is in his second season as a Men’s Basketball Assistant Coach at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri.

McGrail joined WashU after holding the positions of assistant coach and most recently associate head coach at Rhodes College from 2018-2024. That was his second stint at Rhodes, as he was an assistant coach for two years from 2013-15 as well.
 
Between his stints at Rhodes, McGrail served as the Athletic Coordinator at his alma mater of Fenwick High School in northern Illinois and was the assistant varsity basketball coach, helping to guide the team to the 2017 state championship game.
 
McGrail played his college basketball at Rhode where he was the 2013-2014 Southern Athletic Association Defensive Player of the Year and finished his career in the SAA record books with a top 3-point percentage of 47.8.

On this episode Mike and Patrick discuss the importance of adaptability and continuous learning in coaching. Throughout our dialogue, McGrail shares his journey from player to coach, emphasizing the profound lessons learned from diverse coaching experiences and the necessity of nurturing relationships with players. He articulates how the transition from high school to college basketball has enriched his understanding of the game, while also highlighting the unique challenges of coaching in a competitive environment. Furthermore, McGrail reflects on the joy derived from fostering meaningful connections with his athletes, which ultimately enhances the overall team culture. This episode serves as an insightful exploration of the intricacies of coaching, inviting aspiring coaches to appreciate the multifaceted nature of their role within the sport.

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You’ll want to take some notes as you listen to this episode with Patrick McGrail, Men’s Basketball Assistant Coach at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri.

What We Discuss with Patrick McGrail

• Transitioning from a player to a coach requires significant adaptability in one’s approach and mindset
• How assistant coaches can voice their opinions on strategy
• The vital role of collaboration among coaching staff to enhance player development and team performance
• The demanding nature of recruiting, which is critical in building a competitive program in Division 3 basketball
• Establishing a strong rapport with players fosters an environment conducive to growth and accountability
• The unique competitive landscape of the UAA conference demands relentless preparation and strategic innovation from coaches
• Navigating diverse coaching styles and philosophies while working for different head coaches
• Effectively responding to the changing needs of the team and your players
• The experience of coaching at different levels, such as high school and college, significantly enriches a coach’s perspective and skill set
• Keys to creating an environment where players feel valued and motivated

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THANKS, PATRICK MCGRAIL

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TRANSCRIPT FOR PATRICK MCGRAIL – WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY MEN’S BASKETBALL ASSISTANT COACH – EPISODE 1168

[00:00:00] Narrator: The Hoop Heads Podcast is brought to you by Head Start Basketball.

[00:00:20] Patrick McGrail: My job and an assistant’s jobs are to lay out the options and your head coach wants your, should want your opinion. Just lay out the options and then be able to deliver like, Hey, I think this is the best one, and then leave it at that. You have to put your ego to the side.

[00:00:39] Mike Klinzing: Patrick McGrail is in his second season as a men’s basketball assistant coach at Washington University in St.

Louis, Missouri. McGrail joined Wash U after holding the positions of assistant coach and most recently associate head coach at Rhodes College from 2018 to 2024. That was his second stint at Rhodes, as he was also an assistant for two years, from 2013 to 2015. Between his stints at Rhodes McGrail served as the athletic coordinator at his alma mater of Fenwick High School in northern Illinois, and was the assistant varsity basketball coach helping to guide the team to the 2017 state championship game.

McGrail played his college basketball at Rhodes, where he was the 2013 2014 Southern Athletic Association defensive player of the year, and finished his career in the SAA record books with a top three point percentage of 47.8. Hey Hoop Heads. When a player becomes unguardable, the game shifts the defense breaks the crowd roars, and your team takes control.

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[00:02:09] Rus Bradburd: Hey, this is Rus Bradburd, author of the New satirical novel, big time, and you’re listening to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

[00:02:20] Mike Klinzing: Coaches, you’ve got a game plan for your team, but do you have one for your money? That’s where Wealth4Coaches comes in. Each week, we’ll deliver simple, no fluff financial tips made just for coaches. Whether you’re getting paid for camps, training sessions, or a full season, Wealth4Coaches helps you track it, save it, and grow it.

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You’ll want to take some notes as you listen to this episode with Patrick McGrail, men’s basketball assistant coach at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here without my co-host Jason sunk this morning. But I am pleased to be joined.

Patrick McGrail, men’s basketball assistant coach at Wash u Patrick, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

[00:03:23] Patrick McGrail: Mike, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here and excited to talk a little bit about my career, but on, but more so just talk hoops and absolutely

[00:03:32] Mike Klinzing: looking forward to it. And I know that you’ve had a lot of experience in your career, both as a player and as a coach.

I think a lot of the things that are going to be relatable for our audience, want to start by going back in time to when you were a kid. Tell me about growing up, your first experiences with the game of basketball. What made you fall in love with it?

[00:03:50] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. That’s actually something I haven’t thought about in a, in a while is like the the, the true origin of when you fall in love with the game.

And the first thing I think about being a kid in the suburbs of Chicago, I didn’t I was born in the nineties, so didn’t see, like, you don’t have vivid memories of those nineties bowls, but all the championship VHSs at the time, and those filled the household were always playing.

And I, that’s where I just became obsessed, was watching all of those, all the, the Air Jordan, the those videos. I think Michael Jordan’s playground. I don’t know if that resonates with, Oh yeah, absolutely. Anybody that’s going to listen to this and and just all of the highlights and, and the way that they, the storytelling of those videos.

And then it’s. It’s stuff that you can’t script in Hollywood, like that whole era of basketball. And that’s, I just, I found myself watching those constantly replicating those moments, those moves and playing in every, every driveway, whether it be my own or, or family members. And and kind of, that’s where, that’s where I knew that I loved the game and I wanted to, I wanted to work at it.

I love playing other sports. I played football, baseball, soccer, just like most people. And but basketball was, was the one that I always had a drive to, to continue to pursue and want to be good at it. And I wasn’t good at it. That was, I think that was part of it too, right? You’d like, know you’re playing, you usually drawn to the stuff that that frustrates you and and you want to keep chipping away at.

And but those, those nineties bulls and then, and then I think like, like a lot of coaches, you, you I remember going to, I lived in Chicago for a, a good bit of my childhood and I also lived in Northern California and Xcel basketball camp run by Frank ACO out there in in the in the Bay Area.

I, that’s where I learned to play. Like that’s where I learned the fundamentals of shooting, where I actually like took something from a camp and, and did it all summer long and saw improvement and got that taste of success and, and want and be like, oh, maybe I can do this. And that just kind of sparked the  the continued progress and the continued drive to play in high school.

And luckily enough found a, found a college that, that, that I could play at. So that’s kind of the a, a brief little background. I guess

[00:06:32] Mike Klinzing: you could never go wrong with having Michael Jordan as your inspiration, let’s put it that way. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. I’m a little bit old. I’m a little bit older than you.

So my first Jordan memory is the the most vivid one is the shot against Georgetown in the NCAA tournament, and mm-hmm. From that point on, you fall in love with just, again, everything about the guy from you talk about trying to do things or, or seeing somebody that you’re like, I’m never going to be able to do that.

And just as a, as a ground bound slow six three white guy who could shoot a little bit, it, it, the idea of trying to, trying to ever imagine that I could emulate Michael Jordan that’s a, that’s a way far out there type of goal that was not realistic in any way, shape, or form. To the same degree that Michael Jordan inspired you.

 I grew up born in 1970, so as, as Jordan is, is coming up, I’m right in the my middle school, high school peak years of, of being a basketball fan. And yeah, there’s nothing better going back and watching watching the doc  watching the last dance and, and reliving that.

When that thing ended I was like, what? There’s, there’s, there’s have to be more of this. Like, I could just sit and watch this for hours and hours and hours and hours and feel like the time hadn’t passed at all. So I can certainly relate to, to your love of, of Michael Jordan and how that got you started in the game.

And and then obviously from a basketball camp standpoint  things are a little bit different now in terms of how basketball is, is played at the youth level and the camps. They’re still around, but certainly probably not as prevalent in terms of kids attending them in the same way.

Everybody wants to play. Right? Everybody wants to be on a team now when you’re in. Yeah. Third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade and play as opposed to necessarily working on your skill development and those old school camps and that kind of stuff. So as you think about yourself and your development, and obviously as you said, going to camp kind of inspired you, like, Hey, maybe I can do this.

As you learn from good coaches and you get that kind of exposure, as you started to take the game more seriously and it became your number one sport, how’d you go about getting better? What was your process for becoming a better player? Would you say you had an organized plan or was you just, or were you kind of just like, Hey, haphazard, I get in the gym and I get shots up, I try to find games.

I don’t know if either one of those better describes sort of your path to becoming a good player.

[00:09:06] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. The biggest, I mean, when I was getting into, . Probably the most, the more serious stages for me probably started seventh, eighth grade, and on. And I just like, I remember playing when you’re in your junior high, there wasn’t the, it was like the beginning stages of like the, the trainer, like kind of era and like very beginning stages.

And it was more so, and a a u was pretty, I mean, it, it was relevant and it was, and it was, it was prevalent in the area, but it was still, it was kind of more taboo. Like, it was kind of a little taboo for some high school coaches. Like I remember some coaches would be like, no, you’re, you’re, you’re not playing a, like if you play aau, like that’s.

Not really something that we want you to do and we want you to go to our summer camp, or we want you to play on our high school summer like kind of conglomerate of kids that are going to go to the same high school and play in a summer league and kind of build up you’re getting ready for high school, you’re not getting ready for the exposure that a a U would bring.

And so for me it was more, I mean, I played as much as I could with my friends. Like I don’t really, I had in, in eighth grade and, and in, in ninth grade when I did, I’m really in eighth when I was on a, like, quote unquote a a u team, like i I, those coaches, we would do individual stuff, but it wasn’t like, Hey, I got this separate trainer on the side, right?

Who gave me an organized routine. It was like you. Hey, come in, like, kinda like a college setup of like, Hey, come in 30 minutes before practice and let’s work on your shot and let’s work on your handle, and then we’re going to, you’re, we’re going to, we’re going to practice for the next couple hours. So so it was very like minimal organized training.

It was really, I mean, it was, I became obsessed with just form shooting. Probably a little bit too much to the detriment of my ball handling. But I just I would go out and I would pick spots and do my form shooting every time I was on a court, I would form shoot, and then I would hit the five spots and, and get as many shots up as I could there, and then, and then just replicate whatever I saw on.

The videos that I just mentioned with Michael Jordan and guys that I probably shouldn’t have been replicating then eventually it was the, the JJ Reddicks that were pretty there, there go more, more comparable. And then when I got into high school, like that’s when you just see you have access to, and then like the shooting gun became like my best friend.

Like that was the, as, as organized as I probably got was, Hey, we’re going to, we’re going to get a certain number of reps on the, on the shooting gun and then I’m going to get with if, if there are teammates there, like, we’ll get together and we’ll, we’ll play ones, we’ll play twos, we’ll play threes.

But if anybody else that was probably something that I wish I’d like looking at. What I tell our players now is we, we, hey, come in and do stuff together. I wish I was more of like a, hey, let’s have some ideas and like work on some some skills. But it was really just more organic.

Play and it was just kind of like, let’s go, let’s go compete and and do it, do it that way. But but yeah, I wouldn’t say without, like, I had a, I had a pretty organized shooting routine, but other than that I was,  everything else came with like the coaches, right? Whatever, whatever I was being, being coached wherever I was at.

And then the occasional kind of one-off training experiences that I had either with, and it became more like my junior and senior year of high school. I would, I remember my senior year I went and started working with a, a trainer pretty regularly and had that routine. But but I, the majority of, of that, those early years were just.

On my own and trusting high school coaches and club coaches and going from there and working on what I felt like I had to work on.

[00:13:19] Mike Klinzing: I almost feel like today that for players, if you’re trying to do things on your own right, it’s almost overwhelming when you go on and look and you’re like, Hey, I want to come up with a new shooting drill.

And you go on and you can find 6 billion shooting drills on whether you’re on YouTube or you’re on Twitter. It’s almost overwhelming. It is overwhelming as a coach, as an adult to try to look at that stuff. I can only imagine for like a 12-year-old kid who says to himself, Hey, I really want to get better.

Let me find some drills that I can work on. You go and you search and you’re like, whoa, holy cow. There’s like a million different things that you can find and try to try to sort out like, Hey, what should I be doing? What’s real and what’s imagined? So yeah, I think people come to it when you start talking about how do you improve, how do you improve your game?

Everybody kind of has a different path to. To what works. And ultimately, the more you have the ball in your hands and the more you’re doing things you can be, you could be, you could be super organized over here. You could be more haphazard over here and playing pickup and doing things. And if you got the ball in your hands, there’s a good chance you’re going to improve and get better and move in the direction that you want to go.

So when you think about yourself as a high school player, what’s your favorite memory that sticks out for you from playing high school basketball? Favorite memory,

[00:14:40] Patrick McGrail: one pops to mind, but it’s got a bad end. And so I ha I transferred school, so I, I started my high school career at de la au High School in Concord, California.

So I was there freshman, sophomore year. And then my family, we ended up moving back to the Chicagoland area for my junior year. So I finished high school. At Fenwick High School. And so I was the new at Fenwick, I was the the new kid. And that’s kinda where I felt like we had a shoot. Like we didn’t, we had shooting guns at daily.

We had, we had a ton of shooting guns at De Laao. We were all, they were all, we were all about there. And then I just remember coming in and to Fenwick and I was like It was a first practice. I didn’t know anybody. I pull out the shooting gun, I put it and set it up and Guy, like, guys were like, oh, we never, like, no one’s really ever used it before.

And I was like, this is all I know all to do. And so that was like my, my starting point there. And that was kind of a, a fun memory. ’cause like, I got like, guys came over, we started doing stuff together. I was like, all right, we’re, we’re, I’m I fit in a little bit with these guys. Right, right. But my junior year, I hadn’t done anything like I’m trying to just come off the bench and make a mark and, we were playing our, our crosstown rival, OPRF, and I hadn’t played the whole game, I think maybe like a little bit in the first half. And then I come in, we’re down three, I come in for the last, there’s like six seconds left and we’re, we have to go to the length of the court and  they stick me in a corner and and I’m waiting there and our point guard gets loose, gets downhill, finds me hit the, hit the three to tie the game.

And I was like, alright. Like, I’m like, if people like, I you get your ego boost of, Hey, I’m, I’ve made a, I had a moment and at my new school, like, and it was really exciting. We ended up losing it overtime, which sucks. But but that was like the, like my you, you’ve, you have some credibility, like you feel some credibility to the work that you put in.

And then you got guys texting you after the game being like, Hey, like. I was that’s a big time shot, like you’re going to stick with it. You’re going to keep you’re going to keep contributing to our unit and like, you, you feel pulled in. So that was a a definitely like, feel, feel, good moment.

And another really cool moment as well was playing, like, we played that same year. Yeah, my junior year we played at Fargate High School, which is where Kevin Garnet went to high school and they got the big Garnet mural in the gym. And it’s a kind of, it’s a old, like, old downtown Chicago setting and it’s, it was intense environment.

It’s a state it’s a regional semi-final game. And, just a big time way, like one of our Mike Black who went, played at Albany as a coach at assistant coach at Bradley right now. And he had one of the, one of the more impressive moments, like of, that I’ve seen live of and just, it’s just cool.

Like as a coach, it’s, it, you’re, you’re watching those moments more than you’re being a part of them. Right. But just thinking back about those those moments as a player of like appreciating like what you’re you’re part of like some, some awesome moments in your high school that other, other people had games that they’re still talking about.

And then Tim would like, the Proviso West Tournament was it’s unfortunately kind of, is kind of dissipated here in recently, but that was the, the premier holiday tournament in, in Illinois and my team, Xavier Humphrey went on, played at Winona State Ed. He had 30, maybe 39 against he played for the Sixers, if he’s escaping my head.

But like it’ll come to me after the podcast, of course. But of course it was my guess a pri proviso west and he, and it’s Saturday night primetime game and just like being a part of those big moments in high school and there’s nothing like it. ’cause you got to, you’re the energy of Fenwick, we had a great alumni base.

We had we had really, really great student support and and they know when the big games are and you feel that as a, as a player and to, to be a part of moments where you can deliver and your teammates deliver was  it gives you goosebumps like thinking about it. But yeah, those are some, some good times for sure.

[00:19:17] Mike Klinzing: Some good ones. There’s nothing like high school basketball when you have a great crowd and it’s a meaningful game, whether that’s a conference game, whether it’s a state tournament game, there just is nothing like it as a player. And then I was fortunate enough, I was an assistant varsity coach at the beginning of my teaching career for 12, 13 years and had an opportunity to coach in some of those environments.

And it, it just feels different when, when you have a big crowd in a high school game as both a player and a coach. There’s, there’s nothing like that. The school spirit side of it, the, the comradery amongst, amongst the players it, it really does provide some special moments. And obviously it sounds like it did for you.

Tell me about the process for getting to roads. What does it look like for you making that decision? When did  that you wanted to play? Was it was playing college basketball, always a dream? And then how did it, how’d you make it a reality and then end up making that decision to go to Rhodes? Yeah, so

[00:20:27] Patrick McGrail: I didn’t, I had a far better college career than high school career.

So the, the navigating where if that was going to be reality at all, was a, a little challenging. And so I wasn’t I was not heavily recruited out of high school. I really had to, to go out and be proactive. And so. I mean, back then it was, can you find somebody to make a make a DVD Like my mom.

I remember me and my mom, like we were we had to pay a, a guy to make a highlight tape and a dv and then you have to mail it. You have to like physically mail it. There’s no, and so I know, I feel like, I don’t feel like I’m that old, but like, if I feel really old right now. But and so I remember mailing it to, and my, my college or my, my high school we had a college counselor in our high school, like, and then, so I sat down with him and I knew I wanted to play college basketball.

I wanted to continue  that, that was the dream. And, but I knew I wasn’t I was. Luckily, like self-aware that five 10 shooting guards isn’t getting a scholarship to, I’m not in Duke. Duke and those schools. Right. And all those, yeah. Yeah, those are, yeah, that’s, we, I knew where I stood and so, and I always kind of, I wanted to go to a small school.

I, I wasn’t really, I didn’t have a, a desire to go to a large state school. So he sat down, he gave me a list of liberal arts colleges, stuff that fit what I was looking for, and, roads happened to be on that list. So I sent the I sent the DVDs out to to those institutions. I I was the, I was the I was the annoying recruit that was like, Hey, coach, I’m going to DePaul, I’m going to come to campus and I’m going to check out the campus.

And the coaches are around, like, would love to meet you guys. And I get the the third assistant and he shows me around and and that was that. And so but Rhodes, the, the assistant there sad Phillips shout out Dad. And he was the head coach at I never know how to pronounce it, C Cka College or K, the New York School.

But he was the assistant at the time. And he just, he reached out. He called me every Sunday and was like, and was really interested. And that was the only school I visited. I went on a DePauw visit basically on my own. I went up to St. Norbert’s and saw a game against Grinnell. That was a riveting experience of, of that style play, and oh, for sure.

And went a couple others. Yeah, that was was not expecting that and no, no idea about Grinnell. And then no idea what you were walking into there. Walked in. I’m like, yeah, no idea. Me and my dad walked in. It was a frigid, like December day. We, we had an off day in high school. I was like, let’s go check out an Norberts game.

And Grinnell’s got one guy at half court waiting to play offense. But but yeah, and so I went down the roads and I went for a visit and, I played, played pickup with the guys met with, met with the assistant. And and I knew I wanted to go away from, for school. I didn’t want to stay close to home.

I wanted to experience a different part of the country or just be, be a little bit further away. And so the south was appealing and and then after leaving I was like, that place is if you just, you got a gut feeling. And it was an interesting case too. So at the time, the Herb Gelman, who was the, he was 34 year legendary head coach at Rhodes.

He had retired and going into like, so right after that, the, my senior year of high school, right. Going into my freshman year. So tha so Thad was he was, know. Himself in a position potentially get that job, and then to still like recruiting and doing all that. And then and he ended up not going to school that I mentioned.

And so I was in like a interesting spot. I got a call from Andrew Gallo, who was like the stud sophomore on the team. And he’s like, Hey, like we’re going to be going through this hiring process. I’ll, I’ll keep you up to date. And so, because I may one, I was like, I’m going Rhodes, I’m just going to, I’m going to figure it out.

Like that was my kind, my plan. Like I love the school, I love the guys. And I think I was like, I think I can play here. Like, that was like, I think I got a chance to, if I work hard and I think I had a chance to figure it out there. And so I didn’t know who my head coach was going to be. And he he gives me a call when they’re done with the search and, was like, and he’s like, oh, like Mike Dejo is going to be our head coach. And I was like, I dunno who that is, but it sounds good. Like, I’ll see you in August and let’s do it. And so let’s do it. I’ll, yeah. Great. And so and yeah, that’s how I I ended up there and and had a, had an unbelievable experience.

I loved it there.

[00:25:37] Mike Klinzing: How much did  about D three basketball before you started the process of looking at schools? Like had you seen many D three games? What was your level of knowledge, would you say, of D three basketball as like a high school junior?

[00:25:51] Patrick McGrail: Oh gosh. As a high school junior, probably extremely minimal.

Like, I didn’t, I’d never been to a Division III game. Like even I knew my dad went to Rockford College, so, and they were a. They weren’t D three at the, they were NAIA when he went to school there, but they had transitioned to division three, so I was like, oh, like I knew that. But I didn’t know really any until like my, my counselor said, Hey, here’s a, these are small colleges that have Right,  that you can go play at.

I really had no real sense of it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:33] Mike Klinzing: No, and, and you are far as I’m sure you well know, you were far from unusual, especially at the time when you’re kind of trying to make those decisions, right? I mean, clearly with the, with the internet explosion and YouTube and stuff, I’m sure kids today are at least a little bit more familiar with division three basketball when you’re recruiting ’em and talking to ’em now.

But I think back to when you were being recruited or go back a long time ago to when I was being recruited and. Nobody knew anything about  I’ve talked to a number of coaches that they’re like, yeah, we talked to kids. And they’re like, yeah, we’ve never, never even seen a division three, never even seen a Division three game, let alone thinking about, Hey, this is, these are places that I might actually consider going to school and playing basketball.

So obviously you had a really nice career at Rhodes. What were you thinking about academically as you got into school and at that point, was coaching at all on your radar here during your playing career, or were you still just kind of focused on being a player?

[00:27:35] Patrick McGrail: No, coaching was on the radar. Probably my junior year of high school.

I knew I wanted to be a coach. I was, that was the first time I probably like verbalized it to somebody else. I, my head coach at the time, I was like, I want to, but my plan was I wanted to.  be the classic, like teach history and be a high school basketball coach. And that was kind of what I, that was my goal at the time.

And so when I went into, yeah, when I went into school, I was thinking political science and and history and that’s where I sort of started my path and then actually ended up well I ended up just having like a curiosity about psychology and I didn’t take any psychology courses in high school.

I went to a, a lecture going into my, or I heard, I heard the head of the department of at Rhodes I heard her speak at one of our freshman orientation things and I was like, oh, this, this this seems like something that I would like to, . Sort of check out and pursue and actually ended up not taking psych until second semester of my freshman year.

And it was like, this is one, it’s different. I was like, I don’t really like I, If this is intriguing enough, I was like, I feel like I don’t have to be a history teacher and a basketball coach. Like I might as well just pursue something that interests me. It seems like psychology kind of makes sense for coaching and trying to figure out what’s going in my players’ heads and how to motivate them, figure out what’s going on in my head and and sort of go on, like kind of go from there, figure how to motivate people and and it felt, felt like it sort of fit.

And and so that’s what I ended up majoring in in that, in that department. And yeah, so not the. I, and we talk about recruiting all the time, just like that’s what college is kind of all about. And it might, we might be it might be biased ’cause that’s kind of our path of like, hey, you don’t have to have it all figured out.

Like you can it’s the you have a, a great opportunity to pursue. Like for me, pursuing psych was not in the cards in high school, but you go to you you, you go to a university or college, you got, you have way more access to a lot of different avenues. And so kind of happy it turned out that way.

’cause I like telling that story. I like that.  you don’t have to in the, in a world of,  it hasn’t changed. There’s plenty of when we were going to school, there’s the group that has it all figured out. They got the plan down to the second, and and  you don’t have to put that much pressure on yourself.

Right. You can. It’s true. You got time. You, you got time and you got a short period of time, but you got you, you need to experience different things and figure out you don’t want to miss out on anything. Yeah. And so I’m glad that was, I like talking to, to families and players about that because I think it, I think it resonates with the parents.

I think the parents they, they feel that, but the, like the kids, you don’t have to, it’s okay. Like, it’s okay to not just be like, have your, have the next 40 years figured out. Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:11] Mike Klinzing: The line I always like, like to use, I use it on my own kids and I use it to. Use it with other families and kids.

I’m always like, look, I’m 55 years old and now I can add a line that I just retired and I still don’t know what I want to do with my life. So it’s yeah you, you, you certainly, I certainly didn’t have it figured out at 18 and I barely feel like I have it figured out at 55. So yeah, I do think that, yeah, the ability to be young and to be able to have different directions that you can go and give yourself options and be able to take a course here, take a course there, and see different things, and see different perspectives and then see, hey, where do my interests lie?

You got a lot of developing to do from age 18 to age 22 or 23 and to, yeah, there are some people that are in that cohort that you talked about that, I want to be a doctor, I want to be, whatever it is. And I think those people are, are fewer and further between now probably than it’s ever been. I think you, it’s just there’s so many different avenues out there with the world and kids because of.

The access that they have, the information, certainly compared to when I was in high school  they’re, they’re just way more aware of all those different paths that, that you can, that you can take in order to get where, get where you want to go. So, as you’re playing, are you having conversations with your coaching staff about, Hey, when I graduate I really want to get into coaching, and are you starting to talk to them about what the career looks like, what it would take, building your network?

Obviously I know you end up back at Rhodes after you graduate, but just talk a little bit about your relationship with your college coaching staff and how that helped you, not only just to get back on the staff when you graduate at Rhodes, but then also just moving forward in your coaching career.

[00:33:00] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. I, I vote, I voiced that I did want, like Mike knew that I wanted to be a coach and and. I really didn’t have a great, I talked more with him about as I was going like sophomore, junior year about, more about like teaching, like what, like, like teaching opportunities that could have potential coaching opportunities and and so like certain programming that would make sense.

I know there was like  a, a prep school that I was looking at and trying to connect with their people and network with them as potential landing spots after graduation. But for the most, and for the most part, I wasn’t like, I didn’t get into much of the networking. I kind of just made sure that I was around basketball, people outside of.

The school year. School year. And so always like, I would always go home and work fenwood camp and,  build relationships there. And then I was working, I, well, I trained with that’s kind of my college years is when I really started to like specifically be organized and train with with a with somebody.

And had trained with Matt Miller, who now is the founder, CEO of M 14 hoops in Aurora, Illinois. And so I would work with him, I would work his, his camps as well. And so that was kind of my foundation of. Figuring out, like starting to coach like you’re coaching and doing drill work in, in those camps.

And then, and then just being connected to those people and saying, Hey, like when I’m done playing, I’m really, I’m, I want to, I want to stay in basketball. And and so that was kind of my, that was my mindset. And then I ended up after my senior year playing, I got on with like a local a a u team and was coaching one of their, like one of their younger teams as well.

And just trying to  stay involved and start to build that part of, of, of my skillset moving forward as I was becoming closer to being a coach. But I always had, like, I still always had that mindset of, of finding a high school spot and then it kind of changed my senior going in my. As it got closer to graduation, it was starting to get more and more real.

I didn’t have, I didn’t know where I was going to end up, and I really thought I was going to end up at M 14. So M 14 started to grow and and then he was going to have opportunities to be a trainer, and then they didn’t have teams at the time, but just, I was like, all right. I’m like worst comes to worst if I can’t find a high school job, like I’m going to go and work for him and be a trainer and and work at that and I’ll, I’ll kind of figure out what the next steps are after that.

And I just got, I got lucky. Like I knew, like I had enough trust with Mike and the staff and one of the part-time guy or part-time guy who was there my senior year. He was getting out of coaching, he was moving. And so he came to me just randomly one day. He said, Hey, I think we’re going to have a position open and if, if I know you want to get into coaching, like if you want it, like it’s yours.

And I had never like, thought of myself as a college coach. And I was like, right, yeah. I was like, I can’t say I, like, I can’t say no to that, right? Like, I have to, I I’ve I loved the school. I I, Mike is awesome, like, just the best. And I was like, yeah, like I’ll, I would, I’m, I’m in, I’m sold.

Like, you don’t have to say anything else. And so that’s how I got, got my start. And it was just right after, right after graduation found a place in Memphis and and then we were rolling from there.

[00:37:12] Mike Klinzing: So once you take that job, obviously. It’s a change, right? Because you had kind of been mentally preparing yourself for I’m going to be a teacher, which is going to be my main profession, and then I’m going to be a high school coach.

And you could probably flip flop those. I’m sure there’s some high school coaches that would flip flop the coaching and the teaching. But teaching is going to take up a bulk of your time in, in your career in that way. And then mm-hmm. All of a sudden, boom. Now it’s flipped. And you’re a college coach. So the, the teaching position, the day-to-day of teaching kind of goes out the window.

And now you’re, I know you’re not all basketball all day ’cause there’s a lot of different things that you have to do in coaching that aren’t involving coaching basketball, but you now become a full-time basketball coach. What did you love about it right from the start? Like how, how did  after a month on the job that you were like, I found I found my home in coaching.

I found what I want to do,

[00:38:10] Patrick McGrail: the first project Mike gave me was basically doing a, a skills breakdown, like of what we to give to the guys Hey, this is what you should be doing this summer to help you anyway. Our level is so diff like we can’t get on the floor. That’s what probably fru it frustrates me the most is like, I, because I love that component of, hey, like, I want to be on the floor one-on-one or small group and like, and help guys improve and build confidence.

And so, but like that, like just the, the accomplishment I felt from videoing putting together like a little video series of, hey, these are the, this is like the progression of skill development or player development that we need you to do, like, and how it fits into what we do offensively.

I was like, like I was like. This is fun. Like this is, I could do this all day. And even though it wasn’t on the floor, but it was just like, hey, that, that same component of we’re helping the guys, like giving them something to do in the summer and and then app, like the application, like the translation to the like, why we’re doing this, why we why we, these things are important and see how you guys did it in a game the year before and now the new guys are coming in, they’re seeing like, okay, this is what, what we’re about.

And like, just the, the sense of accomplishment of like getting like a, a project like that done that was that was like when I knew like, okay, this is this isn’t work.  like it’s work, but it’s not like this is Right. Right.  this is not I dunno, a chemistry project or something, but I got it.

[00:39:53] Mike Klinzing: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:39:54] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. And then, and just like the, the. Being like an I like love being an assistant coach, and I’d be, I’d been lucky to be Ro Rhodes. We had great guys and like, and so, and like relating to them, it was like, it was easy for me. Like I was just like a, a really like comfort zone of they could come to me and like, I knew everything they were talking about.

Like, I knew everything from the classes they were taking to their daily schedules to what they’re doing on the weekends. And like, I like that was, that was the hardest part. I was like, I have to separate myself now. I have to be right. Like six months, six months, six months

[00:40:32] Mike Klinzing: ago.

That’s what I was doing. That’s what I was doing. Yeah. I was doing the exact same thing. Right. So yeah, I get it.

[00:40:38] Patrick McGrail: But that like relatability and like them being able to and then me to just be like, I just, I had so much pride in the program. Like, it was just so, it was so easy for, it was a really easy transition.

And so yeah, but I mean, and that first, like, there’s nothing like. You have to get over like the first time you’re, you’re playing, Shawan was our big rival, so like the first time you’re not playing in that game, it’s like, it, it hits you a little bit, but  the juices get flowing. And as a coach and you’re like, there is something, there is something a little bit extra about, hey, like you, you get that feeling of like, I’m still in this I’m still like, I’m I’m graduating all my teammates, everybody else, they’re working, working jobs and  or I was sitting in front of a computer screen, but I get to watch basketball.

Like they’re doing spreadsheets and all that stuff. And and like I’m spending Fridays and Sundays like in the gyms that we used to compete in, and like, and I get to still compete in those gyms. And so yeah, that’s, that’s that was a easy sell for me.

[00:41:52] Mike Klinzing: Was there anything surprising when.

I always think it’s interesting guys who go from their playing career to being a coach on the staff where mm-hmm. You’re making that transition, obviously you kind of address the idea of hey, it was easily to, to relate to the guys ’cause you had just been in their shoes whatever six months earlier.

But when you step behind that curtain, was there anything that you were surprised, like, Hey, I didn’t realize these guys spent so much time doing this, or, wow, I didn’t even know that they did that. Or was there just, what was surprising to you that maybe you didn’t realize as a player that once you got behind the curtain with your with your coaching staff, that, that surprised you?

[00:42:37] Patrick McGrail: Yeah, I think the amount of like detailed film work because as a player, and that can get like a little bit. I think a little bit monotonous and like, you’re, you’re sitting there, you’re like, ah, like, we’re like, it’s a little it’s, it’s just different from a player’s perspective for if you’re anticipating for sure.

Oh, man, when’s, when’s that next play coming up? And when’s like coaches  he’s picking on me like, they’re like and so you, but from a, a coaching lens, like, it’s completely different, like the amount of work that goes into pulling clips and what you show and what what themes you’re going to have.

And you, you don’t think about any, like, you’re not thinking about the, the other stuff that the players are, are thinking about. Like, you’re not, like not, we’re not picking on anybody. We’re just we’re pulling out certain, certain things. But the amount that go, that went into, and especially the scouts, like the amount that went into what we the limited, .

Amount of time that’s spent showing it to the team, like how much goes into that? But I kind of ex, I guess like, it was a little surprising, but you kind of expect, like, you want to get the coach and you’re like, oh, we’re grinding film all the time, and you have that kind of stereotype.

The biggest thing, and probably the biggest adjustment for me was I didn’t realize how much went into recruiting, like, the amount of like, and  at roads we were we, we were volume recruiting. Like, so you’re sending like a ton of mailings over a, like a extended period of time and you’re, and like the, I remember like looking back at, they had saved stuff that our coaches did while I was playing.

I was like, man, these guys are doing a lot of like, yeah. Being creative and just the amount of like tracking of hey, they go to like one open gym and like the notes of the next class and the next class. Like, I didn’t have any feel for, ’cause I wasn’t like, I was barely recruited, so I have no, like, I was like, I set out a DVD, I got a call every couple Sundays.

I was like, alright, like I guess that’s your career. I mean, I’m sure people are getting recruited more than that, but I dunno what that looks like. I’m not getting the I’m not getting the star treatment. So so that was the most eyeopening thing was like that process and how how detailed and like thorough all of that was was really, was really eye-opening.

[00:45:22] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, I could see that. Where again, especially when you’re talking about at the division three level, right? It’s. I think the thing that a lot of people don’t realize is, yeah, you can recruit all year round, but yeah, you can recruit all year round, right? So there’s yeah, the opportunity to do that all year round is great, and yet the opportunity to do that all year round means that you’re constantly on as, as a division three coach, and it, it never, it never ends.

I think that’s the one thing that I don’t even know if I fully grasp that until, so my son is a sophomore at Ohio Wesleyan, and you just realize that you, you see the recruiting process that he went through and then they get to school and then you, you’re talking to them and he is like, yeah coach had to as soon as practice is over, he was driving two hours to go to this high school game or the he’s got, have to get to this next a a u tournament and just all the things that I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, but  clearly it’s just you’re, you’re coaching the current iteration of your team and yet.

You still have to be spending all that time and creativity and energy to be able to work on that next class that’s coming in and keeping your program sustained no matter again, no matter what level you’re at. But division three is, is unique just because of, again, the opportunity that you can, you can be doing it all the time, which sort of necessitates that you are because if you’re not, somebody else is going to be doing it.

So I can definitely relate to that, that idea of just the, the recruiting being, being more than what you might have anticipated. Yeah. Yep. Right. So the next stop after Rhodes, you end up going back to your high school. So clearly that was maybe the path that you thought you were going to take initially coming outta school before you had the opportunity at Rhodes.

So just talk to me about that transition back to high school. How, why, and then what the experience was like. At the high school level, and then we’ll transition back to going back to Rhodes. So just walk me through the, the, the process of going from being at Rhodes to, to going back to, to Fenwick and, and doing in the role that you were at there.

[00:47:39] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. Yeah, I kind of, like you just mentioned, I was kind of going through a, because I got, I went from part-time my first year at Rhodes, and then I got, I got moved up to the full-time position my second year, which is, which is awesome. It was a great opportunity. And then I kind of got like, like I kind, we didn’t have a great year and like, I think my, my confidence got hit a little bit and I kind of, I didn’t know, I still didn’t know exactly like what I wanted to, to pursue.

I kind of fell in that mindset of like, I have to have it all figured. Like, do I want to be like, do I want to be a college coach? Like, do I want to do. Do I, can I get to that point or do I can I think, do I think I can get to that point of being a, a college head coach? I really like, I, at the time I was like, I’m not really confident, like in my, that I can do that.

And like, yeah. And it was unique, like, and being at your alma mater and like you, you, you have a little bit and we had kind of an up and down season, but you’re like, man, like I didn’t feel like I helped the guys and I was like, how can I, like, do I need to go learn?  I’d been at one place for now six straight years and with our plane included is like and high school and training was still on my mind.

And so I was like, maybe I, maybe I need to be in a different environment and like learn like. I learn some new stuff and then, and then kind of go from there. So an opportunity came up late in the summer and I, at my high school, it was a be a community relations coordinator. Eventually it was a athletic coordinator, so I was working in the athletic department and then they, and then to be the head sophomore coach and then help out and be an, an assistant on varsity.

And so I accepted that position. I moved back, moved back home. And it was, it was a, it was a really great, like a really great learning experience and it was challenging in like a bunch of different ways. Our varsity program had an awesome year. That first year went downstate, so it was like, came into a really good situation there.

And Rick Maldi was the head coach at the time. And he had been a, a legendary head coach at New Trier and then and then was on Porter Moser’s staff at Loyola before coming to Fenwick. And, and he was just, and he was a lot diff like, he was a lot different than, than Mike and a lot of a lot of great way, like, it was just, it was just unique to, to have a different perspective.

Like to have a different perspective and be around be around somebody like, like, like Rick. And so he was like, at, at Rhodes we were very, we were very like system oriented. We were like, Hey, we’re going to, we are pack line and we were ball screen continuity and we were going to be great at both those things.

And that’s like, we were like full bore on that. And and then in high school it’s like, like it’s. You have to figure out ways to, there’s just like d you have to figure out ways to win in in right? A multitude of different way. Like, you’re like, Hey, the, hey man, to man’s not working this like, we’re zoned, like, we’re going to switch it up and we’re going to triangle and two, like, we would never think of doing a triangle and two, or 1, 3 1 or anything like that.

We’re like, no, we’re, we’re going to be, we’re going to be better at man-to-man defense than they are at offense. And like, and that’s what we’re going to live and die by. And so, like, just being in a, in a different system and different environment like that was like,  it gets your wheels turning as a coach.

Like, oh man, this is it’s a lot of new stuff that I didn’t think about. And and so learning from them, and then, I mean, the most valuable experience is just being a, be having to be a head coach at like at the softball level. And first year was just like, I had a great, my he was the assistant on varsity when I played there Denny’s, Alaska.

And so. He I had him, he came outta retirement for me to be my assistant. So he had just a plethora of experience and was so cool that to have him as my right hand man and kind of like, just teach me the ropes of like, of of how to be how to, how to practice plan, how to  how to, how to run a practice what what drills like, make sense for this group and what we’re trying to do.

And and just developing that, that process. And and so that was, and really the be like you have to find your voice. Like you don’t you have to, in that first year, you just, you don’t really know what your voice is. You like, you want to be respected and you want to you want to like, you want to be credible.

And you get caught up in a, a lot of, like a lot of different stuff. As a first year head coach, you just want to you don’t want to make mistakes. And then and it was really like second year, it’s like you settle in and you, you kind, you figure out what  your identity and what  what you care about, what you want to do.

Because at first you’re trying to pull from everybody, right? You’re trying to pull from every clinic that you’ve been to, you’re trying to pull from the varsity guys, you’re trying to pull from your assistant. You’re trying to make everybody happy. And it’s like, like, no, what do you, what do you, what do you value and what do you like, what are you going to emphasize?

What are you going to be like hold the guys accountable, accountable for, and and. If you do those things, you’ll figure it out. And so that second year was really, was really good. I had a great group of kids and and we had so much fun, but I was just like, I was like I I I kind of found,  what how, how to be confident in like what you want to do.

And so and yeah, It was great group of people and I really, really like, I look, I look back at, at those notes and I, and I still, I have to get with, I have to get with Rick ’cause he had so many great set plays. But yeah, I got, I got his play sheet. It’s, it goes with me to every job. And but it was a, it was a really, really valuable experience for sure.

[00:54:10] Mike Klinzing: I think I take two things away from what you said. One is finding your voice is not easy for a young coach. I remember the first time I stepped out on the court as a coach, and I’ve told this story a couple times, but I was coaching a JV team and stepped out there and whatever, running the first drill.

And I remember standing there by myself as the only I didn’t have an assistant coach, obviously as a JV coach. And watching that first drill and just being like, I just watched like 500 mistakes in five minutes of this drill. How am I possibly going to, how am I going to do this? Like, I just you have, you have no idea.

And then you’re trying to figure out, like you said, what’s important to you and who are you and what kind of a coach are you going to be and how do you impact players? And it’s all stuff that takes time to be able to figure out. And then the second thing. And I’m sure that you’ve reflected on this and will continue to reflect on it as you move throughout your career.

But the ability to have spent two years as a head coach, which is a role that not many guys who again, if you start out as a part-time division three assistant, right? Most often the path is you’re just kind of moving up that ladder, that chain of command. And then eventually maybe you get your opportunity to be a head coach at the college level without ever having been a head coach at any level.

And then all of a sudden you step in and you’re like, wait, I have to decide playing time and substitutions and I have to figure all I have to, I have to know when to call time out and all, all the things that you kind of take for granted, right? That you learn as a head coach. So I’m sure that you have reflected and will continue to reflect on how valuable the reps that you got.

And there’s somebody on the outside could say to you, oh, come on man, you’re coaching a sophomore team. Like, that’s nothing like coaching a college team. But the reality is, is that those reps, as a head coach, I I’m sure that you continue to look back on those as being extremely valuable. And whenever you do eventually get an opportunity to be a head coach at the college level, if that’s what you want to do.

I mean, you’re going to look back on those two years and be like, man, I learned a lot that that helped me to be at least semi prepared for  for eventual head coaching job at a different level. And I’m, I’m sure that’s how you’re looking at it, right?

[00:56:41] Patrick McGrail: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, and it’s all, it’s, it’s mainly mistakes.

Like it’s, you think about the, I mean, dealing with like at, at, in high school, that was the biggest culture shock was, I mean, at, at Rhodes we didn’t deal with parents at like. Like you your kid’s at college, like maybe get a parent email like once, but nothing, rarely in, in high school, it’s, they’re there, man.

Like they are, they’re there, they’re calling you. They got no problem coming up to you. And like, I’m, I don’t at this, I’m 24. I’m like, I don’t even, like, I don’t know how to handle this situation. And like, and just having like, yeah, and really like having confidence and comfortable, like, all right, I dealt like with those scenarios, there’s, there’s, there’s not much that are, that are tougher than that.

And then, and then just being, I, yeah, I like, like you just having a voice and just I think I, the things that I draw from it and it’s, it’s something that I’ve also learned from Coach Yucca at Wash U is like, I’ll always, if If I become a head coach, I will seek out a. Older, wiser assistant.

And that’s what we had Steve Wilcott on our staff. And and then coach had had chief at at Oshkosh. And and having KO on my, on my, our, our two man staff, the sophomores, it was like that, the, having somebody that will, will shoot you straight that’s been through every basketball scenario you can think of and can help you think outside the box.

’cause once you, . Now you go through that head coaching experience and you go into whatever your next head coaching experience like, I’m going to know what I want to do. I’m going to be like, yeah, I want to do this, this, and this. Right? And then you need somebody to be right there saying, Hey buddy, I don’t know if we can do that with this crew.

Like, I don’t know, maybe that’s like, you have to think about some other stuff and like stuff that you get tunnel vision, like with you’re like, Hey, I got this plan and  I’ve I’m however I’ve got plenty of years under my belt that at this point that’s what you’re thinking.

And but having having the right people around you and having somebody like that, like that’s one thing that I that’s been reinforced then and continues to be. And but yeah, your, your spot, I mean those, I you get very. Few. And like I coached a couple of our, we had a couple JV games this past year at Wash U and, and even just getting back into like those games, I was like, man, I haven’t done this in a while.

Like, when do I call, when do I call time out? Like, yeah man, I have to get the, like the board, I guess. Yeah, I guess I can use the board on this one. But yeah, it’s, it’s so true. And I would even say I’ve considered the last couple years of even like seeking out local, like a, a u opportunities.

Like, just like, just to get those, like right. Just to keep working that muscle. It’s like anything else, like, for sure you stop using that muscle, it’s going to, it’s going to be gone. So yeah,

[00:59:57] Mike Klinzing: it’s definitely culture shock. I was a varsity assistant for I think 13 years where again, I wasn’t. Of those in game decisions.

I, I’m sitting on the bench, I’m keeping track of files, I’m throwing suggestions out, I’m doing whatever. And then one year our JV coach left to take another job and I ended up taking over the JV team and again, making decisions and being a head coach. And I was like, man, it’s been like 11 years since I did any of this stuff during a game.

And I’m like, I remember like for a game or two being completely overwhelmed, like forgetting that I had to sub guys out and that I had a bench and what am I doing during time during timeouts, I’m, I’m coming up with like, I got like 47 things I’m trying to say to the team and you just, yeah.

You just forget all the little things that it takes to be a head coach and be in control of all the decisions that you make and slowing yourself down so that you can, yeah, you can control it. ’cause when you’re an assistant. You can be sitting there on the bench and you come up with your one great point and throw that in at a timeout or yell it up to your head coach as you’re, they’re, they’re standing in front of you.

But when you’re the guy that has to make those decisions, those reps are, those reps are definitely different. And I, and I know that they’re going to continue to be valuable for you for the rest of your career. Talk a little bit about the decision then after the experience at Fenwick. So now you’ve had the college experience.

Mm-hmm. You’ve had the high school experience that you kind of thought was maybe going to be your original career path, and you make the decision, go back to Rhodes, back to college basketball, and then eventually you’re going to end up at Wash U. So just tell me about the decision to go back and follow the college coaching career path as opposed to staying on the high school path.

[01:01:50] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. Yeah, so I kind of hit a a point there at, at Fenwick. Where I was also working part-time at, at m 14 hoops, so I was doing the training thing as well, and I, I found myself, I missed division three basketball. Like that’s what, that was like. The main driving force was I’d sit, I’d be on d3 hoops.com.

I went from not knowing anything about Division three basketball as just being an absolute junkie. And so, yeah. And just staying up to date with, I was staying up to date with Rhodes, obviously, and checking in on those guys and knowing watching their games and tracking box scores, but really just like the entire sport in general, I just loved, I just kept finding myself like going back and that’s where my focus was.

And then that played in that, I was like the, the idea of like, like you mentioned before, the of basketball. Being your, your full-time job and, and kind of getting the realization of like, I had a great I had a really great setup. Like being at like, that is you’re focused on your team in some way, shape, or form.

It’s like, not always on the court, but it’s recruiting. It’s the admin stuff, but it’s all vitamin.  you have your, your guys are there to go to school and to hoop and not like nothing else. And then you’re there to, to set them up for success and be, and pour everything you got into that team that season that program.

So, so I was kinda weighing both like of what to do next if it was M 14, if that was, if there was an opportunity there to be on the basketball side. And that’s all basketball all the time. But I really just I couldn’t see myself not being a part of a team.  it’s like I, I really and not those those conference games, like those, like there’s those they had a, they they got your hooks in?

Yeah, they, they, they had their hooks in me and so yeah. I was applying, like I applied for some assistant jobs and see if anything kind of developed. And then my co coach de George was, was at Rhodes. And then he got the Colorado Mesa job. And so he was going out there and. Then Tyler Papini got the Rhodes head coaching job, and I just, I applied for it.

I reached out to, to Tyler and I said, Hey, I’m an alum. I used to coach there. I’m looking to get back into it and would love an opportunity. And and he I got an interview. I went down there and and then he, he he, he gave me the opportunity to, to come back and so I went back in 20 20 18 and.

And was there for six years. So got, got, got back to the place I started, which is which, which, which was great. And it was really just fortunate to get back in it because that’s what one thing Mike always told, like, it’s harder to once you get out it’s, it’s harder to get back in. And probably me being young and dumb, I was like, ah, I can figure it out.

I can do it. Yeah. It’ll, it’ll work out. Yeah. And it’ll happen to me. Right. And I was lucky enough that it did, but but I know it’s  it’s not, doesn’t happen that way for everybody. So

[01:05:24] Mike Klinzing: what did you take from that second experience, those six years as an assistant at Rhodes that now you’ve taken with you to Wash U?

What’s something that you learned in that second stint that has made you a better assistant at Wash U?

[01:05:39] Patrick McGrail: Yeah, so it was a, it, like looking back on it, it was. I mean, I worked for three different head coaches at Rhodes, and that was like, at the time, it’s, it’s, it’s very challenging at the time, right?

Yeah. Like, it’s like, so I worked for Mike was, was I was always like, I’ve, like, again, I’ve loved Mike de George, I’m the biggest Mike to George fan in the world. And he was my coach. He gave me an opportunity, like I didn’t think I was going to play college basketball. So like, I was like, just right.

A hundred percent all in. And so as a coach, I’m like I’m, I’m all like, whatever Mike says, like he could tell us to do whatever. I’m like, we’re doing that. And and so that, and then to come back and. I worked for Tyler and I worked for Zoe Goodson the last four years I was there. And all three extremely different head coaches, which and for me it was, it was challenging.

’cause I, like, I didn’t know, I I came back working for one head coach and then that situation doesn’t work out. I don’t know if I’m going to be retained on staff when they bring in the new guy, the, eventually Zoe, but I don’t know what’s going to happen there in that position. So there was a lot of like a lot of career experience and, and and situations that I take, I take going into especially like inter like interviewing for Wash U and then just kind of talking about my career is like, I can, I feel like I’m pretty adaptable.

Like, I, like that’s where I like learned. It’s like how can. How can I fit in with each of these guys at the same place. Like, and so and I really learned how to, I learned at the end of it all like, kind of how to, how to humble myself and help, like, help a head coach, I think.

Yeah. And so, like, being at your alma mater, like you and I’ve seen Rhodes, I’ve been my first year coaching or being the assistant at Rhodes, we won 20 games. We win the, we won the conference. We hosted the conference tournament. We had a great year. And I’ve been on, I’ve been an assistant coach on team.

We were five and 21. Like, and so seeing both ends of, of the spectrum and kind of being able and really with, with Zoe, like I’ve, I’ve, my challenge was like, I. How can I, how can I like help how can I best serve like the head coach? Which I don’t think, like, I don’t, I don’t know if I had necessarily that, that mindset or I don’t think you’re thinking about how to help the head coach.

You’re just like, kind of think, I have to do my job and I have to Right.  make sure that I’m getting things done and that that the guys like me and like whatever else. And then but I really learned how to use like my, my assistant coaching voice with both Coach Papini and Coach Goodson.

And that, like with Coach PapinIt was like, he gave me a lot of he gave me a lot of autonomy. Like, so when I was able to say suggest certain things and drills or what we should do offensively or defensively. I mean, he really was, gave me confidence by just either implementing those things or taking those things into consideration.

And which was, which was great. And it was a great learning curve because I got to figure out like what worked and what didn’t. Like, I got to really evaluate, Hey, I suggested this and it didn’t go so well. Like, and like, how can, how can it how can I change that moving forward? Like, what were the things, like you can’t just suggest something and then like, you really have to have a, you have to have a plan of how to execute it.

And I didn’t early on I was like I didn’t really have a, have a well thought off, thought off plan. And then with Coach Goodson, he was coming from the division one level. And so, like, my place, like he really leaned on me. I think for just figuring out the division three landscape, like figuring out roads, like I’d been.

I’m I had institutional knowledge and so like voicing those things in, in the right way, like not being a know-it-all and not being like a, well, hey, I know about this place, like this is what we should be doing. It’s like how can you constructively work with somebody and get get this thing moving in, in a good direction or give good guidance.

And and ultimately my job and assistant’s jobs are to lay out the options. And your head coach wants your should want your opinion, but it’s like, just lay out the options and then be able to deliver, like, Hey, I think this is the best one. And then leave it at that. Like, you have to put your ego to the side.

You have to, you have to get outta your feelings. Like that’s something that I feel I’ve had to work on a lot. Like, it’s like, it’s not like. Don’t be offended. Like just seeing, take you to your idea like that. It’s, again, it’s that like, and then, and then now looking back in, the high school teacher was like, it’s on, it’s, it’s stressful when it comes down to you and you feel that pressure.

And so learning that at the college level and learning that with like multiple head coaches has been, been great for for my growth and I, and helped put me in a position like Joe gave me a lot of responsibilities with our offense. And I look back on my experiences with, with Coach Papini and as a sophomore coach was like, okay, like when I had when I had control of the defense, it didn’t go well.

Like, and like why didn’t it go? Okay, so with the offense, we have to have a. You have to be able to present this and you have to be able to have a plan and have the why and like, sell, like I had to sell it to, to coach, and I had to really be confident and knowledgeable and then go out and try and execute it.

And so and it was just really it was just really cool to see how different people do different things. And get, like, I think we all no, like, you get, you get into a box of like this is the way it’s always been done, right? And then to like, looking back on it, see like, hey, like I never would’ve, like with, with Coach Goodson, like big fundraiser, like gets the guys like tons of gear and like, just all those like, kind of extra things. And  I’m like a classic like Midwestern guy. I am like, yeah, you don’t need that stuff. That’s a T-shirt, right? Just

[01:13:02] Mike Klinzing: get, just get it with t-shirt, ? They’re good.

[01:13:04] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. And so I’m like, but like, there’s value to that. Like there is like, yeah.

 guy, like, that’s imp like these guys are playing, they’re playing college sports. Like they, they are doing and just, just like being at a place like Rhodes building a place like Wash U, like they’re, they’re doing hard things on and off the court and like they, they have earned they’ve.

They’ve earned the opportunity for like, for nice things and like, and it’s a big deal. It’s a big like, yeah, it, I don’t care. Every level of college basketball is a big deal. And so mm-hmm. The more that we can give our guys that feeling and they feel like, hey, more than just the people, we don’t need more than the people in this room to care.

But it is nice sometimes to know that more than the people in this room care. Yeah. And so that, that was something that was that I kind of learned throughout that process too, was just those other things that you don’t think about assistant coach. Like, you’re just like, Hey, let’s, what’s, what’s practice look like?

What, like, let’s get scout ready and let’s go compete. And just having an appreciation for how much more goes on with, with our head coaches and how those things matter as well. It was, that’s going to, that’s going to be a big part of my continued growth. And  hopefully one day when I’m sitting in that chair, I can remember those things and and learn and, and have, have a good, good experiences in that position.

So

[01:14:41] Mike Klinzing: there’s so many different ways. I think what you touched on that’s so important is that when you work with four different coaches and you work in different programs, what you end up seeing right, is that there’s different ways to play winning basketball.  I mean, yeah, you can, okay, we could do it this way, we could do it that way.

And sometimes if you’re, if you get stuck in your mentality of thinking like, Hey, this is the only way to do it, you realize that, look, I mean, how many, how many schools across the country yet all levels of college basketball are. Being coached exactly the same way to answer that question’s, probably zero, right?

Right. Everybody brings something slightly different to the table from a culture, from an X’s and O’s, everything about it. And so the exposure that you get to different people then allows you to pick and choose as you say, yeah, I really like this, or, man, I don’t know about that. That’s not going to be for me when I end up being a head coach.

But the more people that you have an opportunity to work for and work under and see how they operate and what they do, how they do it just builds your knowledge base of what you’re pulling together. That eventually allows you to find your voice, figure out who you are as a coach, and then eventually when you have your program, then you’ll be able to take all those pieces and parts that you’ve collected along the way and turn ’em into what Patrick McGrail believes, right.

And who he is as a coach. And you’ll have taken bits and pieces of all these guys that you’ve had an opportunity to work for. Tell me a little bit about the role at Wash U and just kind of how you guys delegate who does what and just how, how, how, how your staff is organized.

[01:16:19] Patrick McGrail: Yeah, so, so last, last year we had coach Yucca myself and then coach Wil Cutt and and then Coach Ecklin.

And so we delegated in a way that Coach, coach Ham is defensive guy, like defensive genius, like all in on that, like on that side of the ball. So when we, from a day-to-day basis, like he’s really locked in with, with our defense, with we get to scouting. It’s kind of depending on who’s taking that, but that’s where he.

Really hones in on and he allowed me right away. I mean, I came in to obviously the extremely well established program and and a team that was in the Sweet 16 the year before I got there. And so I’m just trying, I was just trying to kind of figure out the lay of the land and Right, right, right.

And just  taking, taking on not up.

[01:17:22] Mike Klinzing: Try not to give away. Right, exactly. Don’t let not messing up up. Don’t lemme give the guy that messes this up.

[01:17:27] Patrick McGrail: No. That, that was exactly what I was doing. I was like, I’m, I’m making sure that I don’t mess up any food orders, any any itineraries like, right.

Yeah. I’m going to keep things to status quo. You guys, the basketball stuff’s been fine well before I was here, so you, you guys got that. But, but Coach Yucca was great. Like the offensive side of the ball was something that, I started to get into more at, at Rhodes my last two years at Rhodes. And and so coach knew that as I was coming in.

And so he really let me  we obviously collaborated on what they were doing the year before and and what, how, like his vision of, of, of what it would be like moving forward. But he really let me come in with my idea. He is, he is, he loves fresh ideas from ev everybody and anybody.

And so like him that genuine like conversation of, Hey, what have you done in the past? What did you like, like we we really connected there and he let me.  kind of have, have ownership over the offensive side of the ball from just like a film standpoint. Like when we’re in our, in our practice film sessions, like he’ll, he’ll show his defensive correction clips and I’ll show offensive ones.

And and so that’s kind of how the sort of day-to-day practice stuff is delegated and and we’ll get to practice.  he’ll have me do  the offensive kind of breakdown things. And right now we’re in our eight contact days, so  we both kind of collab on our, on our small group sessions, but he really lets me be creative with those and, and those are more offensive focus.

So so I just, we lets me kind of. Plan those out and have those ready. And which has, which has been, which has been great. And then we’ll get into the season. Like he takes the, we play Friday, Sundays he takes that Friday scout and he is got coach Willie with him. And then last year, I myself and Jake, our, our other assistant, we had the Sunday Scouts.

So but in, in the non-con we just depended on how the, the schedule sort of works out. It’s either all four of us if it’s if we don’t have like that two games in a weekend, it’s like all four of us are locked in on one team and given our, our notes and our thoughts, and that would be typically one where like I’d watch how to attack them from an offensive standpoint.

And coach is locked in on, on how to guard them. But, and that’s, and then our, our. We had a shift. So Jake Uhlin, he took a high school girls head coaching job, so we’re down to three this year. And so we’re we’re, we’re, we’re working, working through, working through that, Jake did a lot of our, our shock quality evaluation.

So I’ve been doing those in, in, in this segment of our, of our season. And and then we have, we’re lucky enough to have, we got a great group of, we call ’em apps, all purpose personnel, but they’re essentially MA managers, student managers, and they do a lot of statting for us. They’re doing live statting and practice for us right now.

And but yeah, that’s kind of the, the breakdown of our staff. And then coach and I are the, so coach and I are the only full-time assistants and Coach Willie was a legendary high school head coaching or head coach here in St. Louis for a long time. So, he still got a job, but he’s basically semi-retired.

I give him crap. I understand about that. But so we’re out coach and I are we’re out recruiting and doing all that good stuff and spring summers and and yeah. So that’s sort of the, the breakdown of of us.

[01:21:16] Mike Klinzing: Tell us a little bit about the UAA for people who aren’t familiar with the league that you guys play in.

’cause it’s pretty unique in terms of the major cities that the schools are located in and the way you guys have the schedule and the travel. Mm-hmm. Just, just talk briefly about just what that experience was like for you going through that last year.

[01:21:35] Patrick McGrail: Yeah, it was, it was really interesting. I was kind of, I was anticipating it to be like a.

It sort of like built it up as like this huge challenge, but we’re, I mean, we’re flying and we’re, I mean we’re we’re not flying charter, but we’re, we’re flying commercial and like, but we’re going, it, it is a, it’s a whirlwind of a weekend. It’s so competitive and it’s, it’s like, and people we’re telling me, and I played, actually played with the previous assistant, Luke Collins at Rhodes, so he was kind of prepping me on, he is like, every, every week, every game feels like a tournament game.

And I’m like, well, I never played in a tournament, so I don’t dunno what that feels like yet. So for me it was a, it was a, it was a whirlwind. But it’s, it’s so cool. Like, it is just like, it’s. Going to I’d never been in New York before, and so that was my first time there. Not that I like got to experience the city, but like, I was just like, I’m here

[01:22:35] Mike Klinzing: in New York, but you’re, you’re in New York.

[01:22:36] Patrick McGrail: You’re, you’re theoretically in New York, right? Yeah, I’m in there. Yeah. Yeah. There’s times squares nearby, but yeah. Right. But yeah, that, it was, it, it’s just like looking back on those weekend, you get home on Monday and, or you get in there, you get home on Sunday, but like you get there, like Monday you, you wake up and you feel like you just played like I didn’t do, I didn’t play a minute.

And but you look at the mileage that you covered and it’s, it’s pretty surreal. But I mean, just like the competitiveness of the elite, the coaching, the, the level of, of player, like the, the talent level is, so, and that was like coming into our, our first practices at Wash UII was like, man, I haven’t like.

I haven’t been around like this level of talent, like no offense to anybody, but like, it’s just like, right. It’s, it, it’s just very, and the size, like the size of our guys, like how big and  skilled they are. And then you go and you play  obviously NYU was incredible and and Emory and Chicago, like, like every, everybody you’re going against, it’s like they’re no, no different.

We’re, we’re all competing for the same kids and recruiting and Yeah. And then you, you see ’em up close and personal and it is like, it’s a physical and it’s it’s just really impressive basketball. And so that was, I mean, that was, that was fun. I mean, that was, it was really fast for me. But once things started to like once we got like halfway through conference play, I was like, okay, like.

I, I feel like I can, I’m, I’m seeing the game. It’s not, it’s not just blowing by me right now. Right.

[01:24:22] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. Yeah. But

[01:24:24] Patrick McGrail: no, it’s, it’s really it’s just, it’s just really cool to, to go up against teams that, that have that, that number next to their, their names for sure. It’s just, .

Absolutely. And like you mentioned for like it’s, there is a different energy from the fans, from the coaches, from the players of it’s big time basketball, so Yeah, it’s a lot of, a lot of, a lot of fun and it’s, yeah. That’s for sure

[01:24:55] Mike Klinzing: very unique league in terms of the setup and the geography and the, the ability to, to fly and the, the Friday, Sunday games and everything that goes along with that.

It’s, again, for anybody who hasn’t checked it out and doesn’t know that much about D three basketball, if starting in the UA is not a bad place to start, if you want to check out some, some really high quality division three basketball. So. All right. Well, Patrick, we’re coming up on an hour and a half, so I want to ask you a final two part question.

So, part one is when you look ahead over the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge? And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do every day as a college basketball coach, what brings you the most joy? So your biggest challenge first and then your biggest joy.

[01:25:39] Patrick McGrail: My biggest challenge in the next two years, my mind immediately went to our team of right,

[01:25:46] Mike Klinzing: of course. Yeah, exactly. That’s where I expected it to go.

[01:25:48] Patrick McGrail: So for our, like, for our team. It’s really our biggest challenge is really exciting for, I think from a coaching standpoint, we, we graduated Hayden Doyle and Drake Kins Vader.

We were a Hayden bonafide All American and all conference for four years and was a staple for us. And then Drake was,  essentially like he was an all American, all American talent and was, did so many intangible things and just, and was just an extreme. I mean, he had, I think he had the best performance I ever saw live was in the elite aid against lacrosse and like 32 and 11 and was just incredible.

And so like those, like there are two leading scores and now like we return a lot of guys that are like, that are. Different than those guys. Like we have a ton of talent. And the fun thing is like, especially from an offensive standpoint, like you lose your top two leading scores. Your first thing is like, how are we, like, how do we make up that productivity?

And that’s the exciting thing for us right now is like we, I think we get to do it in a way that’s different than we had to do it before and what is that and like, and we’re like working through it right now. And we got coach and I just, I just came, I just got back at 2:00 AM yesterday for, I did a whole tour of college practices and the Memphis area this weekend and Okay.

Getting new ideas and pulling from teams and he did, he went to Mizzou and Illinois and Purdue and we’re all, we came together today and it’s like, how can we, how can we help our group? Like we have so, so many great pieces. How can we help this group be successful as soon as possible? So that’s the biggest challenge of, in the next year is like, what is what does our offense look like to, to give our group the best chance to, to make a run like we did last year. Yeah. And so, and then sorry, I forgot what your second question. Oh, what’s the biggest, biggest joy? Biggest joy? Biggest joy? The biggest joy for my, the, our guys.

I like, our guys are the best. Like, and I, I know everybody probably says that, but, but our, like, the, the people that we have, and this would be my biggest advice to like any like assistant coaches out there, is I think we all get caught up in the rat race of, of trying to get a job that’s going to set you up for the next job and,  and you’re not, like, you’re not thinking about anything else than that.

And it’s like, find really good people and you guys like, find really good people that are, that are good at what they do or that, that have, that are about the right stuff. Just hang on to them, like, and stay with them because you’ll figure it out. Like you, you have to be around really great people. And that’s, and and like our, our staff at Wash U and our player, like that’s just feeds, like starts with, with Coach Yucca, and then it feeds into who he hires and who he recruits.

And and it just permeates throughout our whole program. I mean, I really like the energy of our group. Like there’s, there’s such impressive people. And like one thing that I’m like learning more this year is like, I think assistant, like the word friend is kind of taboo in coaching, is like, oh, well he wants to be friends with his players.

And or like, and I think that’s like, I think that might be misguided. Like I think friend is a, is a extremely. Valuable and heavy work, right? Like, if I’m friends with you, like we, we love each other, we’re loyal to each other, right?  we are  and I’m going to hold you accountable.

I’m going to confront you when you’re doing stuff wrong or when you’re, when you’re not living up to your potential. And then I’m going to I’m going to be with you in the hard times and the great times. And so, like, I truly like this group that I’m with and is like, they’re my friends.

And like, and that’s, that brings me a lot of joy. And it’s just, I, I get so, like, I ran into a couple guys like walking into work today and I was like, that was the best part of my day. Like, I, yeah, you don’t see your guy, you get caught up, you get in the office, you’re watching film, you’re doing all the other stuff, and you, you might go a day without seeing your guys and like the random run-ins and seeing ’em at practice or whoever it may be is, is just, is the best.

So.

[01:30:31] Mike Klinzing: Steal you, man. I can hear it in your voice that the connection that you have with your players and the impact that you get to have because of that connection, there’s nothing better than that. It really makes a huge difference. It really makes a huge difference. Alright, before we get out, I want to give you a chance to share how could people connect with you, find more about, find out, more about you, your program.

Just go ahead and share, share, email, website, whatever you got you from. We’ll go from there.

[01:30:59] Patrick McGrail: Yeah. My email is mcgrail@wustl.edu So any coaches anybody that wants to reach out, pick my brain say that I was bad on a podcast. I’ll take some criticism or  wants to come to a practice or if you’re stopping by for one of our games, we’d love to have you, love to connect and I mentioned I was going to practices this weekend, so would, would love to, anybody that wants to come see what we do we would be more than happy to host that. And yeah, I’m on Twitter, Instagram, @PTMcGrail13. Our Wash U account, we’re Wash UMBB on Twitter and Instagram. You can stay up to date with, with all, all the stuff we got going on from a scheduling to what our guys, what our guys are up to and what’s going on with our program there. So but yeah, and wash u Bears, wash u bears.com for all things Wash U we have some, we got unbelievable teams. I think all of our fall sports teams are in the top 10, so, which is. I mean just being around, being around greatness all the time is pretty sweet. So check out all of our, all 19 of our sports are for doing great things.

So, but yeah,

[01:32:30] Mike Klinzing: there you go. Thank you for jumping out with us tonight. Really appreciate it. And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we’ll catch you on our next episode. Thanks.

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[01:33:33] Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Hoop Heads Podcast presented by Head Start Basketball.