JON VANDERWAL – MARIETTA COLLEGE MEN’S BASKETBALL HEAD COACH – EPISODE 563

Jon VanderWal

Website – https://pioneers.marietta.edu/sports/mens-basketball

Email – jon.vanderwal@marietta.edu

Twitter – @CoachVanderWal

Jon VanderWal has been the Head Men’s Basketball Coach at Marietta College in Ohio since 2007. VanderWal became the all-time winningest coach in program history during the 2018-19 season.

VanderWal has led the Pioneers to six Ohio Athletic Conference regular season championships, three OAC Tournament championships and eight appearances in the NCAA tournament — including runs to the Elite 8 in 2014-15 and 2018-19. His overall record as a head coach is 267-112.

Jon had a four-year playing career at Albion College (Mi.) then served as a Graduate Assistant Coach at Defiance College before becoming the lead assistant at Ohio Wesleyan University in 2003. He took over a program at Marietta that went 32-96 in the 5 years prior to his arrival and turned the Pioneers into one of the best D3 programs in the country.

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Make sure you grab your notebook before you listen to this episode with Jon VanderWal, Head Men’s Basketball Coach at Marietta College in the state of Ohio.

What We Discuss with Jon VanderWal

  • Growing up playing multiple sports in a sports oriented family
  • “I think too many of us are trying to raise college athletes instead of trying to raise quality young people.”
  • “I firmly believe you’ve got to love what you’re doing and, and have fun doing it before you’re willing to work at it.”
  • His experience coaching his daughter’s AAU team last spring
  • Getting to play high school basketball with the friends he grew up with in Northern Michigan
  • “I just liked being in the gym and working on my game.”
  • The story of how he ended choosing Albion College and the lessons from his own recruitment have helped him as a coach
  • “We do have to hang with guys maybe a little longer than some other places.”
  • The quality of play in D3 and helping players make the transition from high school
  • “A lot of times guys think they’re working really hard and that they’re putting a lot into it, but there’s always more to be done.”
  • Realizing during student teaching that he did not want to be a teacher and how that led him to a graduate assistant job at Defiance College
  • “When you grow up at the D3 level, you become a really well-rounded coach because you’ve got to be able to do it all.”
  • “Coaching was a way for me to fulfill my competitive spirit more and I couldn’t do it as a player anymore.”
  • “I think when you work really hard at something, and you’re really passionate about it and you give yourself up for others, people buy in.”
  • Getting an opportunity at Ohio Wesleyan after missing out on the Head Coaching job at Defiance
  • Building his initial coaching philosophy around his previous experiences as a player and a coach
  • Turning around the program at Marietta and going 27-4 in his 4th year
  • “As a first time head coach, it’s going to take a few years to really find your comfort zone and to figure out who you are as a coach.”
  • Changing a losing culture – “I’m going to make them do things the way I want them to get done.”
  • Having a vision and sticking with with it even when no one else believed
  • The moment he realized that things had turned at Marietta
  • “You got to love basketball to play division three basketball because you’re not getting a full ride scholarship to do it.”
  • “I want nothing to do with mediocre or being pretty good. We’re trying to build the best small college basketball program in the country.”
  • Learning to earn a spot on the team is a skill set
  • Evaluating recruits with their AAU teams and their High School Teams
  • Helping players understand the value they bring to the team regardless of their role through constant communication
  • Don’t let players guess what you’re thinking, make sure they know
  • Developing upperclassmen leaders that can carry the program’s culture into the off-season
  • Incorporating his family into the program at Marietta
  • “When you have a lot of success, you gotta really fight arrogance and complacency.”
  • “It’s a lot of stress. It’s a lot of work, but it’s also a really rewarding job.”

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THANKS, JON VANDERWAL

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TRANSCRIPT FOR JON VANDERWAL – MARIETTA COLLEGE MEN’S BASKETBALL HEAD COACH – EPISODE 563

[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello, and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here with my co-host Jason Sukle tonight, and we are pleased to welcome to the podcast the head coach at Marietta College, John VanderWal, John, welcome to the Hoop Heads Pod.

[00:00:14] Jon VanderWal: Hey Mike, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here to chat with you guys tonight.

[00:00:18] Mike Klinzing: We’re excited to dig into your basketball journey. Learn a little bit more about what you’ve done, both at Marietta, earlier in your career and throughout your basketball life. Let’s start by going back in time to when you were a kid. Tell us a little bit about how you got into the game of basketball when you were younger.

[00:00:33] Jon VanderWal:

Well, yeah just like probably most young kids growing up, my dad was really involved in athletics and how I remember growing up at living at the softball field and then the gym watching him play men’s leagues and all that kind of stuff. And we were kind of a sports family growing up.

And I kind of remember just always playing with my buddies. I went to a small private elementary school and we would play hoops to recess every day. And I just thought I was kinda like everybody else. I just play sports and having fun with it. And I didn’t really go to my first organized basketball, like league or clinic, if you will until about the fourth grade. And I remember going to this, this little tryout thing and for a youth league and getting there and like just killing it and doing really well. And I was like, and then afterwards, everybody’s like, Hey man, we want you on our team. We want you on our team is that I was like, I’m never going home.

Very good at basketball light without my head. Like when I was in fourth grade, like, Hey, I’ve gotten good at this thing. And that’s kind of where it started, where then I started wanting to go into the driveway every day and it really worked on my game and start getting better at it because I felt like, man, this might be something I’m pretty good at.

So that’s kind of where, where things took off for me. And, and you know, the rest is kind of history and just kind of grew up playing the game. And I played all the sports growing up football, basketball, baseball kind of was, was a three sport athlete for the, for the most part growing up. And the basketball was always number one.

[00:02:16] Mike Klinzing: When you think about your background as a multi-sport athlete, and then you kind of think about the way that our system is set up today, where kids tend to specialize probably earlier than they did back when you were growing up. Just what do you do? How do you see that as whether as a, as a college coach, what’s your thoughts on multi-sport athletes, your experience with them?

And just generally speaking, just what the basketball system looks like today compared to the one that you grew up in.

[00:02:50] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, I can go a bunch of different directions, I guess, to answer that. I mean, my, my best players on my team here at Marietta college, or are, were all quarterbacks in high school for the most part. We we’ve got some more, our best guys played, played football. Maybe, maybe it’s just kind of what I’m drawn to.

The strong athletic guys that are really competitive and, and those guys maybe tend to play football, so we’ve got a lot of guys on our team that were at least a two sport athlete, if not three. But as a basketball coach, you kinda want basketball junkie guys that just live in the gym and you know that your recruits play a football or baseball or doing all this stuff.

I’m like, okay, well, I guess, I don’t know. I have a positive response to that, because that was one of those kinds of guys that I like those kind of guys, but also want guys that want to be in the gym all day long as well. So, and then then on the other side of things, I’ve got two young kids.

I’ve got 11 year old daughter and eight year old boy, and. Yeah, we, I don’t know what we were doing this fall. We signed my boy up, he was playing flag football and he was in a basketball league and he played football, baseball all the same time. My wife was ready to kill me. And I just, people asked me, I’m like, yeah.

So he can do that. My wife will get them there. Right. But so I dunno, I think it’s good for, for these, especially for the younger kids to just have fun and to play a bunch of sports and, and then kind of see what they fall in love with. And I think people are often kind of surprised with me and my kids.

I think they kind of expect me just to have my kids in the, in the gym all day, every day. And that’s not the case. I mean, we’ve spent more time at the, at the football field or the baseball field or, or a softball diamond you know, then we, then we probably do in the gym because I’m just trying to let them be kids right down and have as much fun with it as they can.

And then if they fall in love with one of those sports, we’ll go at it hard if that’s what they want to do. But yeah, I’m all for, especially at the, at the younger levels, let the kids just, just be kids. You know, I think too many of us are, we’re trying to raise college athletes instead of trying to raise, you know quality young people to show.

You know, that’s kinda my stance on it. But if you look at my team, you, you think I was recruiting.

[00:05:07] Mike Klinzing: It’s interesting how you approach it with your own kids when you talk about, and I think it’s something that anybody who’s out in the youth basketball space today, you see so many people who you mentioned that parents think they’re trying to raise. College athletes. And they forget that, Hey, your kid’s nine years old and they haven’t even been through puberty and you don’t know what they’re going to be yet.

And you should just want to keep them, keep them playing as many different things for as long as they can. And then eventually you and I both know that if you’re going to get good enough to where you can play at the college level, you’re going to do that because you fall in love with a particular sport.

And you’re going to put the time in and put the work in and put the effort in. And it doesn’t really have a whole lot to do with whether mom or dad signed you up. This league, or had you working with this trainer when you were nine years old? It really comes down to, you’ve got to give those kids exposure to different things, and then eventually they fall in love with it, but it’s a difficult thing.

I’m sure you see it as a parent sitting in the stands and watching your kids, that there’s such a. There’s such a pressure on parents because they see what other people are doing. And they think all my kid has to be doing those same things in order to achieve success. And I think it’s, it’s a challenge.

Probably the biggest challenge I think we face facing youth sports is just that. It becomes more about what the parent wants or what the youth sports organization wants and less about what the kid wants, because I’m not sure there are too many, eight or nine year olds that want to practice any sport three or four nights a week and drive 45 minutes to go to practice.

I’m sure they’d much rather be just hanging out with mom and dad or their brother or sister or their friends or shoot baskets on the driveway. You’re tossing the ball around, out in the front, are driving all these organized practices that we sometimes make them go to.

[00:06:56] Jon VanderWal: For sure. You know, I firmly believe you’ve got to love what you’re doing and, and have fun doing it before you’re willing to work at it.

Right. And, and in today’s world, that feels like parents are just ready to make their kids start working on things right away. And while a kid at 8, 9, 10 years old, maybe thinks they want to train all day every day and become the next LeBron James, he that at some point I just fear that, that kid’s going to get burnt out.

Right. And so I’ve really kind of tough as a college basketball coach, you’d love to see your kids really excel on the, on the basketball floor. And, but I’ll do my best just to let them blaze their own trail and find their own path. And I would be totally fine actually almost relieved probably if it wasn’t basketball, it was something else right.

Where I could just be a dad. And, and not a coach cause ultimately that’s, that’s what I want to do. And I think they’ll have more fun, fun doing it that way as well. So, but yeah, you’re exactly right. We feel like we’ve you see all these other parents and kids doing all this, all this stuff and you feel like, well, man, if we’re not doing that work, we’re losing track.

But I just want my kids to have fun with whatever they’re doing.

Very little, I try not to I guess I’ll give you a brief story. Our season got done early this past year because of COVID and my daughter played on a really good AAU team and played up an age group. And so some of the dads wanted to go to one more tournament that’s for sure.

One more, right. We signed up for five tournaments and next thing you know, we’re at nine, and so somehow I got conned into taking the group to, to a tournament. And I said, I told the one that you’re the GM, I’ll be the coach coach, and I’m not doing anything else. We’ll have three practices.

I think of the tournament. You probably have never seen me coach, so I’m pretty, I’m a pretty intense guy soul, but I haven’t been teed up in like eight, nine years I guess maybe I’ve been around long enough.

I’ll do a pretty good, right. I made it, I made it a whopping 10 minutes into my daughter’s first seventh, sixth grade. Hey, you gave us. And I was, I was joking around with an official, and I guess he didn’t realize I was joking around and I got teed up a little bit down, right. So I told my wife, this is not for me.

I can’t, I can’t do this. But we did well, we won the tournament. It was fine, but I’m going to retire after that.

[00:09:54] Mike Klinzing: It’s hard to coach your own kids. It really is. I’ve done. I’ve done it for a while with mine as, as they were younger. And my son was a sophomore in high school was sort of a, I think he’s going to probably age out of me coaching and which is good.

It’s been fun for me to just sit in the stands and get an opportunity just to watch him play. And it’s a totally different perspective. As you know, when you’re coaching versus one year, just sitting in the stands as a parent, as a coach, you’re so invested in the outcome and you obviously, you’re thinking about it all the time and it could be a third grade basketball game and you lose and you’re going home and.

Thinking about it. What could we have done differently? Oh my God, I should’ve done this and should’ve done that. Whereas when I sit in the stands as a parent a minute after that game’s over. I mean, I hope the kids won, but it doesn’t matter to me anymore. You just give your kid a hug and you’re like, Hey, I loved watching you play.

Whereas when you’re, when you’re, when you’re a coach, you can’t turn it off that way.

[00:10:52] Mike Klinzing: All right. So thinking back to when you were playing, give me a highlight from your high school career. What’s something that sticks out when you think about your experiences as a high school player?

[00:10:57] Jon VanderWal: Oh, man. I just, just, just having fun playing with the kids that you grew up with, I think is what we, we had fairly solid teams as, as a high school player, I was on the varsity as a sophomore.

And then I had a really, really good season as a junior. Unfortunately for me, my junior year, it was like me and about seven seniors. And so those guys all graduated. And then the next year when I was a senior, it was, it was me as a lot of younger guys. And so my senior year was kinda tough.

We didn’t have a great year. You know, just because I was kind of carrying the, carry the load and I averaged the same amount of points. I’m probably double the amount of shots because I just was having to force things and do all that kind of stuff. But, but I we, we didn’t have, we weren’t it was a state championship, high school team or anything like that, but just playing with the guys that you grew up with.

Right. And that you went to school with from, from a really young age and get a chance to compete against all the other schools up in Northern Michigan, where I, where I grew up and all that kind of stuff. I mean, those are the things that you really remember and, and, and cherish and work on your game.

[00:12:10] Mike Klinzing: When you were in high school, what’d you do when you were working out on your own? How’d you find pickup games? Where’d you go to improve? What, what was your plan in the summertime while you were a high school player?

[00:12:22] Jon VanderWal: Yeah. You know, it was it was so different back then. And now, now when I say it back then it makes me sound old and I don’t, I don’t like to do that, but you know, I grew up in a smaller town in Northern Michigan and there wasn’t a ton going on.

I mean, I was fortunate where I could call my high school coach in any day or anytime. And, and he lived kind of between my house and the high school, and I would just swing through and pick up the keys and coach Kellogg would just meet me at the door and toss me the keys and I’d go in the gym and I spent just endless hours.

In the gym all by myself to be honest with you, and it was crazy was back then, we didn’t, we didn’t have a gun or a shooting machine or any of that stuff. It was just me going into the gym and just getting up a ton of shots and having no imagination. Like I was hitting the game winter all the time.

Right. All that kind of stuff. And then I had some bodies we would, we would get together and play a lot of one-on-one and just go in and try to work on some things. But I’m always amazed by, by today’s athletes like our guys. Hey coach, can you, can you can you write me up a workout?

I can give you a workout.

Exactly. Exactly right. And so, yeah, I just, I just did so much of that stuff, right. It’s like nowadays it’s YouTube. You, you want to buy some thrills. You want to work on, you can get online, you can find anything you want. I talked to kids at our summer camps about this. It’s like kids nowadays has so many more resources than we had.

Back then. It was just you just had a, Hey what do you want to be good at? You know, do you want to work on your crossover or do you want to be able to shoot off the bounce? Or w w whatever, I mean, you, you kind of have. Make it up yourself and figure it out. What kind of player you want it to be?

And I feel like everybody nowadays has so many resources, maybe, maybe to an extent too many resources where they’re dependent on those things or where they need coach to write up a workout or, or whatever. And but yeah, that’s, that’s, it was nothing you know, earth shattering. It was just getting in the gym and I just liked being in the gym and working on my game just having a ball in your hands, it was totally different.

[00:14:40] Mike Klinzing: And you didn’t have, as you said, all the resources to be able to put together a solid plan. I know, I think about myself and basically I did the same. I probably did the same workout for. 6 6, 7 years between high school and college where I was just doing the same thing. I mean, I had, I had very little creativity in terms of varying up the things I knew what I was working on, but I did very little variation from one day to the next.

It was kind of like I had my pet drills that I probably got really good at those drills. I’m not sure after a while, how much it translated to, to make me a better player out on the, out on the floor. But it would have been fun to grow up in this era where you had a little bit of some of those resources at your fingertips.

And yet I always say that the opportunity to go play pickup basketball in the time when I grew up you know, late eighties, early nineties, it’s just that stuff didn’t exist. It just doesn’t exist in the same way today. Kids kids today just don’t, you can’t find pickup basketball the way you could find it back when I was growing up.

And it just, it makes for a totally different system and a way of, of kids getting better and improving. And obviously I think the coaching, the kids get exposed to earlier. Is so much better today. And I think the first time, first time I got to a, when I got to college, it was the first time I had ever heard of a closeout.

So I’m sure, I’m sure, like, I’m sure my coach taught it, but it certainly was. That’s not what it was called when I was in high school. And so there’s just so many things now the kids get exposed to from that standpoint that I think is, is so much beneficial and thinking about college basketball. When did you, when did college basketball get on your radar that you thought, Hey, I want to give this shout out.

I’d love to be able to have the opportunity to play beyond high school.

[00:16:23] Jon VanderWal: Well I thought about that I think probably when I was in middle school, I knew once I kind of fell in love with the game and I knew I was pretty good. I knew then that that was something that I really, really wanted to do past high school, you know? And so from a very early age I had my mindset that I was going to be a college basketball player and like, like most kids growing up,  as I got into high school, I thought I was,  I mean, I was shocked that every D one was it wasn’t knocking down my door and I didn’t understand why, but you know, I ended up at a great place and had, and had a really good career, but I knew real, real, real early that I was definitely gonna want to play beyond high school.

[00:17:08] Mike Klinzing: What was the decision making process that led you to go to Albion?

[00:17:11] Jon VanderWal: My recruiting process was again, I think my recruiting process probably makes me a better recruiter at, at the division three college level because of, because I can still remember what was going on in my head back when I was 18.

I was young, naive, arrogant, 17, 18 year old, who probably thought he was a lot better than he was and I was getting a lot of division, two looks early on and, and just thought like, well, I was like, I was kinda like blowing them off. Right. Like I thought central Michigan, Western Michigan should be all over me.

And they were in it, but so I kind of probably screwed up my recruiting a little bit just with my arrogancy and thinking I was probably better than I was. And You know, really never I had, I gave a copy of LBN  and Calvin and hope had kind of listened to them for awhile just kinda, but never really thought I would end up at one of those places and, and what it was all said on just steel, coaster it out Albion and just did a great job of hanging with me.

And you know, and I was one of those guys that made a decision real late. I think it was like the end of may before I made a decision, I was, I was one of those guys that if I was recruiting me now, I would probably hate you know, I’d tell my assistants, forget that kid,

but actually, no, but that actually is, it’s the exact opposite. I tell my assistants now, like, Hey man, like don’t, don’t let this kid discourage. If it’s, if it’s a kid that we think is really, really good, and maybe he’s not showing us a ton of love. We, we do hang with that kid probably longer. Maybe the most staffs would just because I know that kids probably a lot, like I was right.

And and at the end of the day, he could be a really good, really good player at our level. And, and we recruit probably more against division two schools than we do against division three schools because of the caliber athlete we’re trying to get. So we’re, we’re trying to hang with some guys and convince some guys to turn down some scholarship money and all that stuff to maybe get a little different experience playing, playing for us.

And so we do have to hang with guys maybe, maybe a little longer than, than some other places. But I think my experience through the recruiting process is now kinda maybe aiding us in the recruiting process as a coach.

[00:19:42] Mike Klinzing: Interesting. When you think about what your mentality is, and if you can relate that to the situation they have.

And your own coaching profession where you’re looking at that and going, yeah, I remember what my mindset was. And you obviously were very that your, your experience was I’m sure, super typical. Everybody who has aspirations of playing college basketball, you think, Hey, I’m going to be this guy that’s going to get recruited by this school or this level.

And the reality is, especially when you go back in time nowadays, I think it’s a little bit, it’s a little bit harder to be delusional today because of social media, just because of the exposure and the information that’s available. Now you can ignore the information, which I’m sure which I know a lot of people, which I know a lot of people do, but, but if you want to get the real picture of kind of where you’re at.

I think it’s easier. Whereas you go back to when you’re growing up, when I was growing up, like, I didn’t know anything about the recruiting process. I had no idea what I was doing. My high school coach didn’t have any experience with anybody being recruited at the level I was being recruited. My parents had no idea.

I had no idea. So I ended up making a lot of stupid decisions about where I was going to go and what, how I was going to handle it and who I was talking to and what I thought was going to happen. And it’s fantastic that you’re able to take that experience now and utilize it. I’m sure. To be able to better relate to your athletes because I’m sure there was still a party, even when you went to Albia and there was still a part of you thinking, man, I should be, I should be going to Western Michigan, or I should be getting an opportunity to go to central Michigan.

So now you’ve got to kind of flip that mindset and be like, all right, here I am. I got to be the best player that I can be at the level where I am. And I’m sure that you, you probably have to have some of those conversations as a head coach as well.

[00:21:32] Jon VanderWal: Sure, for sure. I mean, not only in the recruiting process, but then also once they get to campus, right.

I mean I remember thinking, okay, well, shoot, I guess I’m, I guess I’m going to Albion, right? If I’m going to play division three, I’m going to walk in there and tear these guys a new one. I won’t be at all Americans right away. You know, this is, and, and then you, you get on campus and you’re there for two weeks and you quickly realize you’re going to have to reevaluate things pretty quickly.

That’s not how things are going to go in. Same thing for my guys, right? Like, we’ll, we’ll get some guys to maybe turn down some full ride offers someplace to, to pay a little bit and come, come play at Marietta And they’re thinking, well, man, if I’m turning down these higher level places, I’m going to walk in here and be the man and, and you know, 95% of the time that that’s not the case.

And so again, that part of it too, I think helps me mentor or guys once they get on campus about how to handle that adjustment period. And, and what mindset and attitude and approach they need to take and, and all that kind of stuff. So to just kind of try to draw from, from all my experiences from when I was younger to when I, when I got to college, the mistakes I made, I think a lot of my coaching is just trying to get my guys not to make the mistakes I made and to just take a better perspective on things than maybe the, maybe what I did.

[00:22:57] Mike Klinzing: What are some of those mistakes that you feel like you made? Not only just in the recruiting process, but is there anything that, how you approach your playing career as a college player, things that you look back and you’re like, ah, I wish I would have handled that differently that now you can relate to your current players?

[00:23:11] Jon VanderWal: Well, I think a lot of it was, it’s just mental stuff. You know, with attitude and approach and mentality and just how to handle coaching.  I was such a fiery guy as a player. I was so competitive and what not, and I’m still that way, I guess, as a coach. And then I took everything personally and  now I realize just like most guys that go from being a player to a coach there, they see the other side.

Now it’s just, you look at things so differently  as a coach than you did as a player. And just trying to help speed up that learning curve with our guys. You know, I would say also I was, I don’t have the guys that I played basketball with and I mean, I was probably the hardest worker on the team.

I was in the gym the most, you know what I mean? I put a lot into it, but. There’s so much more I could have done. And a lot of times guys think they’re working really hard and that they’re putting a lot into it, but there’s always more to be done.

So we just, we’re just trying to get our guys to take the right mentality towards, towards everything that they do.

[00:24:24] Mike Klinzing: When did coaching get on your radar? Were you one of those kids? I, what I’ve found over the course of doing however many interviews we’ve done here on the pod is that most people fall into one of two camps, either.

There’s somebody that they played, but even when they were playing and they were in third grade, they were drawn up, plays on a napkin, and they were kind of thinking of themselves as a coach. And then you have the other camp where they were just completely focused on being a player. And then all of a sudden their playing career ended, whether that was, it ended it in high school or it ended after college, or they played some professional basketball.

And all of a sudden they’re looking around and going, wait, the, the game is, is done now, what am I going to do? Now? I come to coaching either one of those kind of describe how you came to coaching?

[00:25:06] Jon VanderWal: The second one, definitely me. I was just so focused on being a player and you, I went to college to play basketball is as bad as that sounds.

[00:25:18] Mike Klinzing: I got a good story on that for you. And I’m going to tell you a good story. As a parent,

[00:25:26] Jon VanderWal: I did go to class. I did a nice job with my academics at Albion. I had no idea what I really wanted to be, what I heard, what I grew up. And you know, the only thing I really knew was going to school and playing basketball.

So when I got to college, I was like, well, I guess I’ll go into education. The high school coach when, when that day comes. And so that was kinda my train of thought. So I was in the education department in college. I was a history major and a PE minor thought I’d just probably ended up teaching history and coaching the best high school basketball team somewhere.

And I did my student teaching second semester of my senior year and hated every second of it was it was the second semester of college all your buddies got like bullying class. They like got like, yeah, they’re pretty much is riding the wave into graduation. And here I am, I’m getting up at five 30 every morning to drive at Marshall high school to teach all day long.

And these 11th grade kids in my social studies class wanted nothing to do with what I was trying to tell him. And I was just like, what am I doing, man? This is not what I want to do with my life. And so I started panicking a little bit and went and talked to my college coaches and just said I think I just wasted four years of time and money. And can you guys help me out? You know, they, they were, I was fortunate enough to get a graduate assistant position at Defiance College, you know? And I was like, I would much rather just do it. And I didn’t even really know. Usually I remember we used to give coach may who’s now the head coach at lb.

And he was the assistant coach when I was there. We used to give us so much. What do you do? Sit around, just draw plays all day.

We had no idea, no idea. Like you guys got the easiest job in the world because basketball, right? Nah. So I’m like, that sounds cool. That guy do something like that. And then a coach for coach may helped me out, got me started and that’s kinda.

You know the direction I went, but once, once, once I went that direction, it was, it was like, okay, this, this is what I was born to do. You know, it was like, it was kind of a weird path. Maybe getting there didn’t really know that that’s the route I was going to go. Because like you said, I was so focused on just being a really good player.

But once those playing days were done, it was like, all right, well, I want to, I want to be the best coach I can possibly be.

[00:27:55] Mike Klinzing: Before I ask you about those first experiences at defiance and just what that was like for your, I’ll tell you my quick story. It just struck a nerve with me. When you said that you went to school and you went to school to play basketball, And that was why you went.

And my experience was very similar. Like I picked and went to Kent state because I wanted to play basketball. And it was, it was strictly a basketball decision to had nothing to do with the school or what I wanted to study or majors or none of that stuff. It had, it had zero to do with that. It had only to do with basketball.

And so now I have a daughter who’s a senior who is not going to go and play be an athlete in college, but she’s a very, very good student and she’s not sure what she wants to do, and she’s not sure where she wants to go to school. And so my ability to help her to make that decision and try in terms of trying to figure out like what’s a good school, what’s a good fit.

And she’ll ask me questions. I’ll be like, I don’t really know. I just want to play basketball, you know? And so it’s just funny when you have somebody here who, again has an experience, that’s completely. From your own as a parent, it’s always a challenge trying to figure that out and niches to be trying to help her.

I’m like, look, I got nothing because I just, I just want to hoop then that’s, that’s really what it came down to. And you know, again, just like you, I eventually figured it out and I kind of went the opposite route. I got a business degree and then went back to school and become a teacher. And and so, so here I am, but nonetheless, it’s just interesting how we all eventually find our path, but I, I had, no, I had no thought whatsoever that I wanted the coach.

I was strictly, I was strictly a player until the day, my career as a player ended. And then I just looked around and I’m like, Hey, I got to somehow stay involved in the game of basketball because it’s been such a huge part of my life. So. All right. All right. So that first experience at defiance, you mentioned how, as a player, you have no idea kind of what’s going on behind the scenes with coaching.

So when you got that first job, do you remember anything. In particular that surprised you like, oh my gosh. Like, I can’t believe that all my coaches over the years were doing these things. Like what was some, something that was surprising to you when you got that first job?

[00:30:08] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, this just the amount of work that goes into it, right?

Like with, with all the preparation. And I do remember like it was yesterday, like Tom Palumbo was my boss. He was the head coach at Defiance. He’s now at Guilford and he was a great coach. And he’s had a ton of success on it, down at Guilford now. And I got really lucky because he was a great coach.

I was a GA. And I was our only assistant. So while I’m a GA, it’s not like be the GA at division one, when you’ve got all these full-time assistants and you’re maybe doing the laundry or, or, or whatever. Right. I mean, I was, you were doing it all. I was doing it. All right. Like he’s trying to teach me how to cut the film up and obviously it was VHS back then you know, I had to do back VHS player that I’m like trying to hit record and stop and, and, and all this kind of stuff.

And then he threw me into the fire. I mean, I remember standing outside the gym the first day I was moving in, into place. I was living in and I said, all right, well he’s like tomorrow is the first day. I’m like, all right, well, what time do I got to come in? And you’re like, I had no idea. And he’s like, you said, eight 30.

I’m going to give you a list of things to do. Right. That’s that’s where it started. It was like I came in the first day I listed eight or nine, 10 things for me to do. I started banging them out and I think he was actually kind of surprised with how quickly I was getting them done. And every morning I would just kind of go in and he would just kind of give me new things to do.

And that was kind of how he taught me, you know? And then obviously when the season came, then it was like, whoa, I got to have all these scouting reports done and I’ve got to do all this. I think that’s something that people don’t realize like about division three coaches is when you grow up kind of in this level, you become a really well-rounded coach because you’ve gotta be able to do it all.

You can’t just specialize in one thing, you can’t just be just a good recruiter or just a good X’s and O’s guy or behind the scenes getting things ready for the games and the travel and all that stuff. It’s it’s you got to do it all. And so as the only assistant coach or the only, we had a couple part-time guys that they all had other jobs and talent and things like that, but I was, I was the only guy in the office every day you just get thrown into the fire right away.

And you know, and I was doing it for, for a really good coach who, but at the same time gave some 22 year old kid a lot of responsibility. And that was good for me. And it really helped me grow as a coach.

[00:32:50] Mike Klinzing: What was an aspect of coaching that you took to right away? What was something that if you were going to think back to that time and say, man, this is one of the aspects of coaching that really made me think, Hey, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

Was there something that stood out? Like, did you love coaching offense? Did you love player development? Did you love being on the bench during a game? Just what, what stood out to you that you’re like, man, this piece of it, the relationship was with players. What stood out to you that really made you think, Hey, this is something that I can do for the rest of my life.

[00:33:22] Jon VanderWal: I don’t know. There’s one specific thing, when I got to Defiance what I, when I played Albion, we were strong physical, real defensive minded team. And so coach Palumbo basically said, listen, you’re going to be charged with defense. And so I was kind of like the D coordinator.

So it was almost just like. That responsibility that it gave me and let me coach and so like, I just got thrown in the fire right away. And like, I was like responsible for a lot of things that he just let me be responsible for those things. And, and that was. Invigorating for me. Right? Like that got back.

That that really got me going. And then, and then two just getting on the road. I I’m a people person. I like to talk to people like to meet people. So the recruiting side of it was, was really intriguing to me just getting out and, and, and then just the competitive edge with the recruiting, right?

Defiance is a really small school in Northwest Ohio and, and not a ton of resources and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, I just remember Ohio Northern, which is a bigger place with more resources, but division three as well. It’s just down the road a little ways.

I remember having to try to recruit against, so had no know whether I, they know there’s recruiting, we probably can’t get the kid to go get this kid, you know? So like that part of it. The competitive nature.  I think coach giving me all the responsibility that he gave me. And then I found ways to, I’m just, I’m also competitive.

So even with recruiting and just game planning and all that stuff, it was, coaching was a way for me to fulfill my kind of competitive spirit more and I, I couldn’t do it as a player anymore, but there was a lot of different areas in coaching where I could fulfill that.

[00:35:20] Mike Klinzing: That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think that’s one of the things that anybody who’s played the game and is competitive. When you step away from it, there’s a void and you try to figure out ways to fill that void. And obviously coaching is one way that you can continue to compete in the same game that you love.

Just obviously in a different way. You talked a little bit there about recruiting. How long did it take you? What was the learning curve like to figure out. What the type of players were that you should be recruiting because I’m imagine, okay, here you are a 22 year old kid. You’ve never coached before now, suddenly you’re out on the road trying to scout players, trying to figure out, well, is this kid playing at our level?

Are they too good for our level? Are they not good enough for our level? What was that learning curve? Like what do you remember about that time?

[00:36:11] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, it was, yeah. I mean, it was, it was a big learning curve. I mean, I remember on certain occasions coming back to coach’s office and be like, Hey man, I saw this guy play.  Yeah. I like that guy.

[00:36:27] Mike Klinzing: He’s pretty good. Hey exactly.

[00:36:31] Jon VanderWal: Yeah. So. A ton of those days. Right. And a lot of those days, but then there was, there were some days where I was able to find a diamond in the rough and guys that were probably played player with a little bit more of an edge. I mean, I remember we were recruiting a young man that was, that everybody was recruiting and went and saw him play.

And he was a four man. And I really liked the point guard that night. And I came back and I told coach they got this point guard that week meet nobody else recruit, but he’s, he’s really good. He’s fits what we’re doing. And I think he’d be really good here. And he’s really good friends with the kids you want.

Let me recruit this guy. I think he’s going to be good and it’ll help us get the other guy. And, and that’s exactly what happened. And the point guard that we got ended up being division three freshman of the year and ended up being a real dynamite player. And so that was just like, w when those kinds of things, as a young coach kind of transpire, you’re like, okay, I can do this.

Right. And it gives you a little bit of confidence and, and those are, those are the kind of success, success stories that you, you always remember.

[00:37:51] Mike Klinzing: How did you build your confidence working with players?  So again, you’re pretty close in age to the guys you’re coaching when you get that first position and you’re getting a lot of responsibility, so you’re out there and you’re going through and you’re teaching.

How did, what do you remember about your mindset there in terms of. Hey, are these guys going to buy into me as a coach? Was your, was your confidence high where you shaky at that time? What do you remember? Or maybe if there’s a young coach out there listening, what advice might you have for them? If they’re sort of in that situation where they’re just kind of starting out their career and it’s their first real time getting in front of a group of guys and trying to get them to buy in and lead them in the right direction.

[00:38:27] Jon VanderWal: Yeah. You know, it’s funny that yesterday, because when I was in college at Albion and we played against Defiance and they have some good teams back then and they had a kid who was a really good player. Right? Like it’s so he was a year younger than me. So here I was guarding this guy.  And he was like torturing me as a year ago. Right. Like I better tell him what to do right now. That was unique. We had a first year transfer and that was like 24, 25 and he’s playing it. He was one of those guys that maybe spent some time in the military and then a couple of places that we have brought him in.

So he’s like two years older than me. And so I’m trying to coach these guys, but I just, I just coached them up, you know? And I think when people see that you’re passionate about what you’re doing, that you’re there for them. It wasn’t I I’ve made it a conscious effort that I was never trying to show Eric by any up.

Right. Like I wasn’t trying to prove to him my word. I was just, I was there for him. Right. I was, I was there to help him become the best player he could be. I was there to help us become the best team we could be. I was extremely passionate about that. I was working my tail off and I think it didn’t take very long for all those guys, whether they were two years old me or one year younger than me to realize, Hey, Coach VanderWal.

You know, he worked at it, right? Like, and I think when you work really hard at something, and you’re really passionate about it and you give yourself up for others, people buy in and, and you just gotta make it about them and not about you in, and once they feel that, they begin to trust you.

[00:40:19] Mike Klinzing: That’s great advice. I think any coach who’s listening to that. If you just play back that last 30 seconds. Of what you just said there. I think it’s tremendously valuable advice, especially for coaches who are young and you’re starting to get into it. I think if you’re prepared and you’re passionate and you make it about the players and not about you, man, that’s you could just, if you could just do those three things as a coach, you’re going to, you’re going to end up solving a lot of problems that you might have in your career just by bringing those three things to the table.

How did you end up getting to how did the opportunity at Ohio Wesleyan come by you?

[00:40:53] Jon VanderWal: Well, that was kind of a wild deal as well. So I went down and interviewed for the job full-time position, assistant job at Ohio Wesleyan, and basically got off of the job, right. About the exact same time coach Palumbo got offered the job at Guilford.

And so everybody was kind of in limbo. And I had told, I think it was like the day before I told coach, the way that it’ll have was he, I was going to take the job and Coach Palombo later takes the Guilford job. And so coach Palombo wants you to go to Guilford with, and I say, well, I want to be the head coach of Defiiance already.

Like I just kind of accepted the Ohio Wesleyan job because Palombo wants you to go to Guilford with. I’m 24 years old. I think I’m ready to be a head coach. So a coach, coach, Mike Dewitt at how has in who’s one of the nicest human beings and just, just a great, great person told me like, listen, man, if you get the Defiance job, go for it.

And so he was gracious enough to kind of hang with me for a few weeks and let me go after, after the finance job and I was a finalist for it, I came down to me and John Miller, who was the assistant of Hanover and they ultimately ended up giving it to John Miller. And I was 24. I thought I was ready was probably the best thing that ever happened to me.

I didn’t get it. And so once I didn’t get the job. I felt like Coach Dewitt had been so gracious. It, let me go for it that I, I couldn’t really back out on him then and go to Guilford with, with coach Palombo. So and ended up going to Ohio Wesleyan and he had spent four years working for Coach DeWitt who was a lot different kind of coach than what coach Palombo was.

And I think ultimately those two experiences served me really well because I got to see kind of different ways of going about the job.

[00:42:55] Mike Klinzing: What are two or three things that you remember from those two experiences as an assistant coach that you feel like have impacted you as you became a head coach?

[00:43:10] Jon VanderWal: Well, like I said, I think it’s mainly just the two different styles I think everywhere you are, you kind of take things that you like, and maybe you don’t like, and then when you become a head coach, you’ve got to kind of formulate who you want to be as a coach. And I remember getting a job at Marietta at age 28, like sitting in a am I at my desk?

Like, all right, the heck are we going, what are we going to run? What are we going to do? Like we didn’t have like, I, and so it was like, you kind of just draw back on all of your experiences as a player at Albion. And then as your two years as a GA at Defiance and then four years at Wesleyan, , I kinda basically just took the things I liked from all three places and kind of morph them into, into what I thought was going to be my philosophy.

Right. And that’s, I think that’s kinda like where you start and And so that’s at least that’s where I started. And then once you start having success or having some failures, you gotta figure out some adjustments to make along the way. But I I can’t point to necessarily one thing that either at any of those places, but it was definitely w when you think of me and how I coach our team and what our philosophies are, it’s there’s pieces from, from all of those places, kind of, kind of in what we do.

[00:44:35] Mike Klinzing: When do you feel like you had a handle on who you were as a head coach? How many years into your tenure at Marietta, where you, before you felt like, okay, now I kind of understand who I am as a coach. Cause obviously. As a young coach, your first experience, as you said, you’re kind of sitting down, you’re drawing pieces, parts, you think, okay, I’m going to do this, or I’m going to take that.

Or you’ve had some ideas as an assistant coach of what I get my opportunity to put my stamp on a program I’m going to do X, Y, or Z. So you’re kind of pulling all those things together. When did you feel like it all really solidified where you had a really good feel of who you were as a coach and what you wanted your team to reflect out there on the floor?

[00:45:19] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, for me it, year four is when it all came together. You know, my first year we won six games for 6-19 and which was actually better than they had been doing before we got here. And then my second year was we almost kind of started from scratch with a bunch of freshmen, our first recruiting class.

We basically just felt like we had brought in a really good class and just were like, all right, let’s, we’re going to invest in these guys. And so I feel. Almost grew up with those guys they kinda were growing up as players. I was growing up as a coach. But when they got to be juniors in my fourth year, we go 27 and four.

And won our conference for the first time, since 1975 and, and what our conference tournament for first time in school history, and the sweet 16, all that stuff, but I can also point to that year. And that was the first year. Like I could actually like put my like philosophy, like on paper, right?

Like, alright, this is what Marietta basketball is. Right, it took three full years of like throwing stuff up against the wall and see if it would stick and trying things out and doing different things. And then, and then finally kind of said, okay, I’m confident that this is what I wanna do on the defensive solid ball.

This is what I want to do offensively. This is how I want to coach our guys. This is going to be our approach every day in practice, right? Like, I mean, there’s so many different aspects to the job that you have to get figured out, right? I mean, recruiting, what kind of kids do you want to recruit and who can you get?

And it was just so much to figure out and, and which is also a shame in today’s world. You know, these coaches, you get, you get a couple of years and they want you to, they want you to win a national title and a couple of years, right. And it’s I get it. It just doesn’t work that way. It takes, it takes a few years especially as the first time head coaches, it’s going to take a few years to really find your comfort zone and to figure out who you are as a coach.

But for me, it was year four is when I really started to understand who I was as a coach. And obviously for the last 11 years, that’s that that’s been extended and we’ve learned a lot over the last 11 years. And I think grown and matured and got a lot better with a lot of things that we do.

But year four was definitely when it started to come together.

[00:47:47] Mike Klinzing: Your program has obviously been one that’s had sustained success now over the last 10, 11 seasons. But when you first got there, you were walking into a place that had. I hadn’t won for a long time and was obviously not the job that it is today.

So when you think about that, and I, this is a question that I love asking the guys who come in and kind of a turnaround situation where you inherit a program that’s lost and you got to figure out a way to turn it around. And one of the things that I think is always a challenge is you have these ideas in your head of how you’re going to turn that around, both from the product that you’re gonna put out on the floor, but also just in terms of changing the culture from being a losing culture, how do you change that into a winning culture?

And yet for you, you talked about bringing in a new recruiting class. You grew up with those kids and you know, you’re starting to turn it around by the time you get to your four you’re winning and it’s all starting to come together. But in the intervening time, you’re still losing games. And sometimes it’s difficult to figure out how do I continue to sell my vision of what this program can be when.

We’re not necessarily serially seeing those results on the scoreboard. So how did you continue to sell your message, continue to get your kids to buy in and continue to have them believe in what you were doing and have you to believe in them while you’re building that, but you’re still losing on the scoreboard.

What do you remember about trying to overcome those obstacles and those first couple of years?

[00:49:24] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, I remember it being really tough. I remember questioning myself. I’m on many a days I never, but I never let my players see that. Right. I have remember getting beat by 40 and having a four hour bus ride home and the guys leaving the locker room.

Right. And you’re sitting in the gym. The lights are off. Yeah. We were building a new library. Like my second year here, we were just getting pounded and so we had to enter the facility from the rec center side and we can get dropped off at our normal spot. We still, that year we had a walk through the rec center and then they’d go into a gym and everything.

And we, we have a nice, a nice facility. I’m never like 20 times a year just walking through there. At least I’m in a place with a nice facility, right? Trying to give myself pep talks, like,  constantly. Right. And but I never wavered with our guys. They probably thought I was psychotic. They probably thought I was crazy. I know the administration thought I was crazy. You know, who, when people would ask me, where are you going to be in five years?

I would say, we’re going to win the league. You know, like we had not won our league since 1975, right. Here’s this 30 year old saying, look, we’re going to win the league in a couple of years. And I remember being told to maybe, maybe you might want to tone that stuff down. And, and I was like I’m just going to keep trying to I’m going to try to speak this thing into existence, right?

Like in, I kept trying to find ways to get our guys to believe, believe in it and believe that we could do it. And I just never, ever. Straight from, from that, with, with our guys is in my mind, and with my wife and our conversations and with my assistant coaches behind closed doors, sometimes it was like, we’re setting ourselves up for disaster here.

But we had a confidence about us. We were working really hard. I was holding everybody to a standard every single day to the point where, you know what I mean, back then, not very many people were coming to the games and you know, we’re down 30 and I’m with a minute to go. And I’m screaming at our guys about getting a stance and having a better closeout.

Right. And my wife’s like, I’m not going to keep coming to games. You’re going to keep acting like an idiot. Like, well, it stopped coming.  I’m going to make these guys do things the way I want it. And I don’t care if we’re now 30 or up 30, I’m going to make them do things the way I want them to get done.

And hopefully someday that’s going to pay off. And we just kind of, it’s crazy. Obviously we struggled with our first recruiting class. We got a couple kids in that class that were, that were difference makers. And by the time they got to be juniors and maybe in half crazy and thinking that we could win and just constantly preaching that stuff, it actually happened, you know?

And to this day. I mean, even we actually just did a, the school psychologist did a podcast and that, that came out a few weeks ago about our 2010- 11 season. And just how magical it was. I mean, we went from playing in front of nobody to about halfway through that season. There was a line two hundred yards long outside of our building way to get tickets.

We were the hottest ticket in town and it was, it was like Friday night lights. You know what I mean? It was just you know, now for the last 11 years, we’ve been top five in the country and home attendance. And we just got a really, really unique thing at Marietta College it’s really special. It’s you just don’t get in very many places, a small college basketball.

And so I just feel. So fortunate that I had a group of guys that believed in me and my crazy visions and my staff and we stuck with it. Right. We just didn’t, we just didn’t wait. I mean, we were getting blasted too, and we just didn’t wave or we just, we acted like we knew what we were doing.

We knew we maybe didn’t know what we were doing, but we faked it. We faked it really well. And we got some guys to believe in it and the dream came true and it’s just, it’s kind of in my world, it’s a fairy tale really that we kind of made happen.

[00:53:51] Mike Klinzing: When did you know, like that year, did you know in the pre-season before you even played, like, holy cow, these guys are getting it and maybe you didn’t know you were going to go 27 and four, but you knew that, Hey, we’re, we’re going to turn this thing around or was it at some point during the season?

When did you realize that, Hey, maybe this vision that we had is really going to come to fruition this year?

[00:54:15] Jon VanderWal: We lost three straight weekends. We lost, I think it was 54 at Ohio Northern on a Saturday. The next Saturday we lost like 46, I think at Heidelberg. And we lost like 36 at Wilmington. And so I, I had a recruit from Bowling Green at the Northern game. We got beat by 54 and I said, this is about, I really need you to come to Marietta for this stuff to stop happening.

And I was just saying whatever it took, because I didn’t think it was any way a kid would watch this get beat by 54 and then say, yeah, that’s where I want to go play basketball. But he did. And then it was the very next year. So when our first recruiting class was freshmen we went to Northern where we had just previously a year before we got beat by 54 and we went.

And it was, that was, that was actually the moment when I was like, okay, we just lost my 54 year, last year and we just won today. We might be okay in a couple of years because I did it, we did it with a bunch of freshmen. And so that year, the next year kind of leading up to that we, we kinda knew like, Hey, when these guys get older, we might be pretty good.

And, and so when they got to be juniors in that fourth year, it was we started off the season 13 and 0. And I don’t know, somewhere along that line probably about when I do remember this, I remember playing Wilmington. It was like December 20th, it was like our last game before Christmas break, no students on campus a game that should be totally dead.

And I walked out of the locker room and the gym was completely full. And that was one of those moments that just kind of hits you as a coach. You know, you’re like, whoa, wait, wait, wait. We don’t even have any students here. This place is full on December 20th and we’re tending to no wait.

We might have felt brutal. Right. And, and that’s what I do specifically. Remember that day where it was like, we got something going here.

[00:56:28] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, the opportunity to play in front of fans, which obviously you and your career, I’m sure you don’t take that for granted at any moment, because we all know that when you get an opportunity to play or to coach in front of.

Jim that’s full and it’s just, it makes it so much more fun. Not that you can’t have fun when you’re playing in front of a a, a crowd or a gym that’s half empty because you certainly can, but man, it makes it a lot more fun when, especially your home environment, when it’s rocking and you got fans in the stands and people are supportive and it just, again, it gives a whole thing, a different feel and just it energizes you.

I mean, there’s no way that it can’t both as a player and as a coach. And you know, obviously one of the things that you’ve been able to do really well over the last 10 years, as you, as you got this run started, is being able to bring in the kind of players that fit what you want to do and fit your program.

So when you’re out on the recruiting trail or you’re sending out your assistance on the recruiting trail, there’s obviously a level of talent that a kid needs to be able to have in order to play at Marietta. But what are some of the things that maybe on the intangible side that you’re looking for that.

You know, it’s going to make for a good fit for your program when you’re recruiting a kid.

[00:57:43] Jon VanderWal: Sure. Yeah, I’m really upfront now it’s with all of our recruits about this.  I don’t think that quiet shy guys do very well at Marietta. I mean what we need tough hard-nose competitive kids that, that really loved basketball and there’s 450 teams in division three.

And we’re trying to be the best program in all D three, you know? So we probably take a little different mentality towards this basketball thing than a ot of other divisions three places do, right? And, and there’s a lot of division three places where, Hey, if you want, you want to play basketball and it’s, it’s important to you and you want to be do it four or five, six months of the year and all that.

There’s, there’s places you can go. Marietta is not one of them. You know, we’re going to try that. We’re going to try our best within the rules to operate more than 10 state than we are a normal division three team. Right. I mean, we’re, we’re going to be really aggressive here. I tell guys all the time.

You got to love basketball to play division three basketball. Cause you’re not getting a full ride scholarship to do it, but to play at Marietta, it’s probably gotta be part of your DNA. I mean, it’s gotta be more than more than that. It’s gotta be super important to you and you’re going to have to be really, really competitive.

I want nothing to do with mediocre or being pretty good. We’re trying to build the best small college basketball program in the country. And so they come here, we’re going to bust your tail. You’re going to have to work at it really hard. We have really good players. Ultra competitive.

So I think learning how to win a spot is a skillset in itself. I’m constantly talking to guys about, Hey, you can’t, you can’t be one of the guys. You want to be one of the guys you’re going to be one of the guys you got to figure out a way to stand out. And that doesn’t mean you maybe shoot it every time and get it.

But it’s being tough and hard nosed and doing things the way we teach them. And, and so we’re looking for those kinds of guys, guys that are ultra competitive that don’t need anything handed to them. Obviously we have really good players. So we don’t promise anybody, anything, if a kid’s looking for guaranteed playing time right away, we’re not the place like you gotta come in here and earn it, man.

And so in order for you to do that here, you, you better be really good and it’d be really tough and you’d better be really competitive. You better not be shy and quiet. Right. So those are the guys we’re looking for. We’re looking for guys and that’s, that’s kinda who I am. I think your team is always going to kind of take on the personality probably of the head coach to a certain extent.

And  I’m a fiery guy. I’m an intense guy. I like to have fun, but we’re pretty businesslike. So like we just see guys that, that are okay. Operate in that way. And those are the kind of guys we want.

[01:00:43] Mike Klinzing: How do you balance when you’re out recruiting, looking at a player in the high school setting versus the AAU setting, are you looking for different things depending on which setting you’re seeing them in?

Just how do you evaluate a kid? Well, how much do you weigh their performance as a high school player versus a you player? How do you divide that out?

[01:01:07] Jon VanderWal: tYeah, that’s a great question. With our location in Southeast Ohio, our guys are from a little bit further away.  John Carroll, they can kind of recruit Cleveland and do fine and Capital right by Columbus. They could probably recruit that area. We’ve got to extend out a little bit further, so we’d probably have to utilize the AAU circuit a little bit more than maybe some other division three schools do. But we really try to use AAU as an evaluation period to see what kind of skills the guys have.

You know, obviously it’s a little more free flowing, not as structured at the AAU level. That’s where we try to find the guys that we think we really like To be honest with ya. That’s  where it starts with us. But then from there, it’s like, I w I would much rather see a play at a high school game to evaluate how I think their skills translate to us.

And so it’s like, okay, Hey, use kind of the starting point with who, who can really play, who’s got a good skill set, but then seeing a play in a little more structured sense w with their high school team, is this a little bit better evaluation? So you know, we we’ll, we’ll find guys throughout the U process start, start the recruiting process with but then I think once we get out and see them play at high school games, that’s when we really get down to the nitty gritty and can say, okay, this, this guy is kinda what we’re, we’re truly looking for.

[01:02:36] Mike Klinzing: Make sense. All right. So once you get a player on campus, obviously, as you just said, you’re not promising anybody, any playing time. And you clearly have players that are coming back that have been a part of your program in previous years, which sets up a competitive situation, right? You bring in a good player as a freshmen that guy’s coming in and wants to earn minutes.

And you got your returning players who were fighting for time. So how do you make sure that you set up both a, a competitive environment, but then also an environment where once guys roles are established, that your team pulls for one another and that you’re all together going in the same direction, despite the fact that you want guys playing hard and competing one against one another day in and day out for playing time?

[01:03:19] Jon VanderWal: Yeah. That’s what it’s all about, right? I mean, it’s I always kind of say, the most important part of my job is recruiting and I think it’s player of all that. And then I think it’s just running the program. Right. Like creating the culture. Right. It’s like, that’s all before X’s and O’s and all that kind of stuff.

It’s, it’s just managing the group and yeah, you’re right. I mean, once we’re, we’re, that’s where we’re at right now. Right. We were five games into the season and, and rules have kind of been established and, and guys kind of know where there are. Obviously there’s still some spots up for grabs and, and you make some changes with the line up here and there, but for the most part, guys kind of know where they’re at. And I think it’s just constant communication with your guys and, and the guys outside of the rotation, understanding how valuable they are. You know, we, we play 10 guys every game, at least. I mean yesterday and yesterday’s game, I played at least 12. Oh, I played everybody.

Cause it was, it was a blow up, but we, we go 12, 13 guys a lot of times. But at least 10. So the guys that aren’t in that top 10 rotation for us, or, or scout team guys and practice and all that, we just constantly preach. Well, maybe the people at stands don’t understand how important you are. These two days or practice, man, you guys are going to have a huge you’re, you’re going to determine whether we win on Wednesday or Saturday, more so than it than anything else.

And so we just had to find ways to motivate our guys and understanding and help them understand that they are bringing a ton of value to it while they’re also getting better and developing. I think it helps for us just because. We’ve had so much success and we play in such a great environment and we’re winning championships and things like that, that guys are a little bit more willing to stick with it, right?

Like, if you’re a young guy, not in a rotation, maybe at a place that’s struggling or not getting a great experience, maybe you’re moving out or doing something different. But here all our guys tend to be a little bit more bought in and stick with it a little bit longer. But I do think we do a nice job of just kind of constantly communicating with those guys and, and being upfront and honest about where they’re at and what kind of impact they’re having and just kind of establishing the culture that you want to have.

[01:05:34] Mike Klinzing: What are those conversations look like? And when do they take place? So are you talking to them on the practice floor? Are you talking to them in individual meetings in the coach’s office? What does that communication look like? Obviously it’s gotta be frequent because your plan you’re busy, you’re playing lots of games and obviously guys roles can change over the course of the season.

So what do those conversations look like for you and your team?

[01:05:56] Jon VanderWal: Yeah. I mean obviously you can’t have long drawn on conversations in practice, right? I mean, it’s those are quick little snippets side, side conversations. You’re having maybe a practice or a pat on the rear end and all that kind of stuff.

But we were having meetings with our guys constantly and I’m fortunate even at this level, I’ve got two full-time assistants and we’re, we’re, we’re calling guys into the office daily and checking, checking in on them and or, or pulling them to the side after practice or a few minutes before practice all those kinds of things.

I just, you know on my car ride up to my in-laws here for Thanksgiving, right. I, I called a couple of our guys and had a 10-15 minute conversation, right. About decisions that were made in yesterday’s game and how they should handle it and all that kind of stuff. So I believe in over-communicating I think our guys just kind of always know.

What I’m thinking and why I’m thinking it. We just kind of believe in brutal honesty. And I think, I think the more honest and upfront, and the more you can communicate with your guys, the better off you’re going to be. When the guy starts trying to guess what you’re thinking when they start having

and then they’re having conversations in the locker room, or back in the door, And those conversations can get sideways real quick. Right. And so we talked to our guys a lot about that too. Like, okay, this is what our coaching staff is thinking. This is where we’re at. This is what we need to do. Where are you guys talking about?

Like the conversations in the locker room and the conversations in the dorm needed to be the right conversations. And so we talked to our upper class a lot about that kind of stuff. Well, we check in with even those star players, maybe that I don’t need to talk to, or we’re having a ton of success, I’m checking in with them to see how the younger guys or some other guys on the team are doing, Hey, what are you hearing? Like what’s being said? And then once you get those guys talking, you learn a lot. And then you find out the fires that you need to put out, or the guys that you need to give a little word of encouragement to.

But it’s, it’s all about communication and it’s, it’s so easy to like, just want to focus on the scouting report and the game plan and all that and practice it just as a coach. I think so many times we just, we focus so much on that. But managing the guys is so much more important and making sure their heads around.

Right. Because I mean, I was, I was that guy too, right. College. My mind could get sideways real quick. So I just, we just had to over communicate. I would say that would be the thing that we do.

[01:08:45] Mike Klinzing: And that’s critical obviously, too, for you at the division three level where you’ve got to have a good relationship with your upperclassmen, because come the off season, those guys are almost running your off season programming.

Right. Because you can’t have that kind of context. So what, what does that look like as far as making sure that your team is prepared coming into your first day of practice? The non-contact rules and division three. How do you handle that as a coach and make sure that you have your team set up for success, as you said, you want guys who are living and breathing basketball who love it, who are competitive.

And now here you are as a competitive guy, and you’re not able to get in the gym with them in the fall to be able to get and over the summer. So you got to rely on your guys was I’m sure it makes that relationship even more important.

[01:09:33] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, it’s that? And that’s why you had to recruit self motivated guys that don’t really want to work at it.

Right. And then, and then they come into a place like Marietta and they, they, they kind of see what the older guys are doing. The culture that’s been established and then you’re right. I mean, you’ve got to, you’ve really got to lean on your upperclassmen, your guys that have been around, they kind of really understand.

What you as a coach and how you, how you want things done and, and they’re kind of extenders of you it can kind of help build and promote that culture that you’ve built. And so, yeah, that’s exactly what goes on. And we’ve been really fortunate that our guys have just been totally bought in and they’ve been, self-motivated, they’ve worked really hard at it.

And then once October 15th rolls around, that’s when we try to do a little bit more, we try to make up for some lost time and right now we’re doing shooting and lifting groups outside of practice, just trying to try and do a little bit more, but you try to establish everything you can in season and, and then hopefully your leaders and your upperclassmen, and really carry that into the off season.

[01:10:42] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. I mean, it’s so important to be able to have your team ready to go. And as you said, when you’re, when you’re stepping away to be able to rely on those upperclassmen, that they’re going to be able to get your, get your underclassmen and get your, get your team in the right mindset, having prepared. So when October 15th does roll around, boom, you can, you can hit the ground running as much as humanly possible without the without the amount of contact.

And I’m sure you’d like to be able to, to get the gym with them and, and help them a little bit. But obviously that’s not a, it’s not, you’re not able to do that. At this point. We talked a little bit earlier about family and you know, you obviously have your kids, your wife, and. One of the things that we’ve talked about with lots of coaches is just how they, how they balance their family life with their ambitions as a coach.

So I’m curious for you, how do you approach that with your family? Keeping them involved in the program and just try to try to work on that quote work work-life balance.

[01:11:42] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, it’s challenging. Just, just like any coach would tell ya. Right. And the balance is tough, especially in season. You’ve almost got to just integrate, integrate the two of them, right?

Like, I mean, you got to bring them together. And you know, I mean, my daughter is the mall girl at the games and she’s helping rebound for the guys and standing, standing next to meet her in the national Anthem. Right. And it’s like, I just, it is what it is, man. We try to get them involved as much as we can.

And you know, there’s just like any job there’s, there’s pluses and minuses. Right. And there’s a lot of days where maybe I’m, I’m not able to go to one of my kid’s games because our team’s doing something. But, but man, every Saturday they got their built in entertainment. Right. They’ve got, they’ve got 20 older brothers that they just look up to that are coming over to the house and hanging out and doing stuff like that.

And so. You know, I, even though there’s, there’s things you miss out, out as a coach. If I wasn’t asked my kids like right now, Hey, do you want me to take another job? Like, like doing something other than coaching, they look at me like I was crazy. Right? Like they love it. They love it.

And our guys do a great job. You know, just being via like older brothers to, to, to them and looking out for them and shooting with them when they come into the gym. And you know, it’s kinda neat to like my daughter’s 11 and she’s now not only do we have to go to all my games as the women have a game at home, now we we’ve got to go and she wants to go.

And she went and then they, they, they blew a team out by 20, the other night. I wanted to leave with five minutes ago. I was at the office at six o’clock in the morning. It’s nine o’clock at night. Now I’m ready. I’m kind of ready to go home. She says, no, I got to wait by the locker room. Give them all high fives when the game ends.

So we waited, we waited for her to have all the women’s players, high fives after, after their game. Right. And so those kinds of experiences, I think, are far outweigh the negative things that kind of come along. But as a coach, you just gotta kind of infuse both the family and the program as one.

And we’re our, team’s going to Vegas for a big tournament in December. And my wife and kids will be on the plane with us. Right. I mean, they’re just, they’re just, they’re just part of it. You just try to make a part of it. And, and I think ultimately the, the rewards definitely outweigh the negatives.

[01:14:17] Mike Klinzing: No question. That’s good stuff. We are coming up on 11:30 and I don’t want you to be falling asleep tomorrow during Thanksgiving dinner. So I want to wrap it up with one final question, two parter it’s one that frequently ended episodes with, and it’s just thinking ahead, what’s your biggest challenge let’s say over the next year or so that you, that you face and then number two, What’s your biggest joy when you get up in the morning and you think about what you get to do every day as the head coach at Marietta college, what brings you the most joy about the opportunity to do that?

So your biggest challenge and your biggest joy?

[01:14:49] Jon VanderWal: Well, our biggest challenge is obviously it’s tough for anybody to build a program, and I found out, it’s even harder to maintain, maintain it. Right. I mean once you, once you have success, everybody’s trying to knock you off.

And, and then to I tell our guys all the time, like when you, when you have a lot of success, you gotta really fight arrogancy and complacency, right? I mean, the second you think you’ve arrived, someone’s going to put you in your place. And so it’s like, We’re just constantly trying to, to maintain and build upon what we’ve, what we’ve established.

And, and this year is no different. We were preseason number three, we played the toughest schedule of anybody in the country so far. And we, we we’ve, we’ve had a couple of setbacks already, but I think we’re going to grow from it. I think we’ll learn from it. And but just taking on having a target on your back every night and in all the challenges that come with that you know, create creates a lot of work, but, but you know, the second part of your question, you know every national Anthem man, the hair standing up on my arm and I know this is what I was meant to do.

Right. And I just loved to compete and I love being around the guys. And then my staff, my assistant coaches are like my best friends. You know, I love those guys. We have so much fun together every day. Even when we’re pissed off about something we’re, we’re forever probably finding a way to joke about it or laugh about it and have a good time about it.

We just have so much, so much fun together. We enjoy our guys and we just like to compete, man. We like to get out there and see what we’re made of. And, and there’s you asked me earlier, it’s like, yeah, I thought I was going to be a high school teacher, but this is definitely what I was meant to do with my life.

And one of the, one of the coolest things in my 15 years here at Marietta my assistant coach, Brennan McKeen got married this summer and he actually got married in, in marriage. And so all of his former teammates and all these guys, we had like 25 former players out to our house the night before the wedding and their wives or girlfriends or whatever with them.

And it was that, that was cool. Right. That’s what it’s all about. Just having, we had this big bash out the house and seeing these guys come back from all across the country and hearing all the crazy stories that we had over the last however many years, and seeing that those guys actually appreciate us coaches now.

Right? That’s the hardest thing. Right? You try to get them to understand you when they’re 18 and 22, and they don’t fully appreciate you until they’re like 24, 25, and then they can’t do anything for you anymore. But you know, but just, just being around the guys and hear all the stories and all that stuff, it’s just so rewarding.

It’s a lot of stress. It’s a lot of work, but it’s also a really rewarding job.

[01:17:39] Mike Klinzing: It’s well said, John, appreciate it. And I think that, that what you just said really sums up again, you, you want to win games and you want to have that success on the court. But when you really think about what you’re doing and the impact that you’re having that wedding story kind of sums it up, that you, you have guys that, that come back and they’re a part of your life.

And they’re a part of again, you, you poured into them while they were with you and now they’re going out and doing the same for the people in their life. And that really that’s really what coaching ultimately is all about is having that kind of impact before we get out, I want to give you a chance to share how can people reach out to you, find out more about your program at Marietta, whether you want to share email, social media, whatever you want to share with us, go ahead and do that.

And then I’ll jump back in and wrap it up.

[01:18:24] Jon VanderWal: Yeah, sure. So all my stuff is my contact information. I believe my social media account on Twitter count, all that stuff is online. So if people go to Marietta.edu and just find the athletic page, go to men’s basketball and go to coaching staff and look up Jon VanderWal you should be able to find a way to either email me or maybe on social media and all that kind of stuff.

And obviously love having high school coaches come to practice where we’ve got open practices. We give you a practice plan, sit down with you after practice, talk to whatever whoever wants to come. Anybody that wants to talk hoops or learn more we’re there for them.

[01:19:05] Mike Klinzing: That’s awesome, John, we can’t thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight, especially on the Eve of Thanksgiving to join us.

So we really appreciate that and to everyone out there, thanks for listening. And we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks.