ANDREW PETCASH – SPORTS ENTREPRENEUR & FORMER D1 PLAYER AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY – EPISODE 607

Andrew Petcash

Website – https://petcashpost.substack.com/

Email – ap@theairapp.com

Twitter – @AndrewPetcash

Andrew Petcash is a sports entrepreneur and former Division 1 basketball player at Boston University. 

Andrew is on the founding team of The AIR App, an exclusive social media/matching app built to help athletes get discovered across the world.  He created the Petcash Post, a newsletter breaking down the business of athletes & sports. Read daily by athletes, coaches, sports professionals and fans, The Petcash Post has become a go-to resource for more than 23,000 people. He is also the founder College Athlete Insight, an educational website around college recruiting and NIL.

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Be prepared to take some notes as you listen to this episode with Sports Entrepreneur Andrew Petcash.

What We Discuss with Andrew Petcash

  • Why he grew up a fan of JJ Redick
  • What he loved about the AAU environment as a player
  • Getting used to playing in front of college coaches during AAU
  • The impact of the transfer portal on all levels of the college game plus its effect on high school recruits
  • Building a program that players don’t want to leave
  • Why high academic schools may have an advantage in keeping their players
  • How NIL will affect college choices for players moving forward
  • Why schools should be doing everything they can to help their players benefit from NIL
  • The business of NIL and March Madness commercials
  • Signing with Boston University a week before classes started after another player left the program
  • Choosing a major at BU
  • How athletics and academics can go hand in hand to get you into a better school than each of them by themselves
  • Connections and networking
  • The difference between a tough coach and a bad coach
  • Tough coaches get on guys, but then they like reconcile and usually they don’t even have to say anything cause it’s just a shared bond.”
  • Thoughts on summer workouts at the D1 level and what it demands of players & coaches
  • Burnout & injuries
  • How many games will Zion play in his career?
  • Creating the Petcash Post newsletter and mixing his interest in sports and business
  • How sports can teach you to keep your emotions steady and avoid the dangerous highs and lows
  • Why athletes should be building their social media followers if they want better NIL opportunities
  • Why every college athlete should be running a camp in their hometown
  • The role NFTs may eventually play in sports and business
  • How NFTs may help teams capture revenue from the secondary ticket market
  • The economics of AAU and changes that could made to the system to make it more transparent

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THANKS, ANDREW PETCASH

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Click here to thank Andrew Petcash on Twitter!

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And if you want us to answer your questions on one of our upcoming weekly NBA episodes, drop us a line at mike@hoopheadspod.com.

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TRANSCRIPT FOR ANDREW PETCASH – SPORTS ENTREPRENEUR & FORMER D1 PLAYER AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY – EPISODE 607

[00:00:00] Mike Klinzing: Hello, and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast. It’s Mike Klinzing here with my co-host Jason Sunkle, although Jason’s mic unfortunately is not working. So we’re hoping we’re going to get that fixed so that we may be able to hear from Jason during this episode, but we are pleased to be joined by sports entrepreneur, Andrew Petcash, Andrew, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

[00:00:19] Andrew Petcash: Thanks for having me on brother.

[00:00:22] Mike Klinzing: Absolutely. We are excited to be able to have you on and talk some sports, talk some business, and I think it’s going to be a really, really interesting episode for our audience to check out. So let’s start by going back in time to when you’re a kid dive into your bio a little bit.

How’d you get into the game of basketball when you were younger?

[00:00:41] Andrew Petcash: For sure. Yeah, so I started real young. My dad, he played a division three in college and when I was like three years old, he started rolling. We had our basement. It was the cement and everything started dribbling around. We had the little tykes hoops, so I always used to be Dunkin on those.

And then I started saying, Hey dad, I kind of like basketball like this, this could be something. So he started taking me to University of Pittsburgh basketball games. And I remember sitting there, I don’t know, seven, eight years old and saying, dad, like, I’m going to play college basketball one day.

And that was kind of like our path from there. And work worked my way up, but that’s kind of where it started and, and we can go thought in somewhere else. Do you have a favorite player growing up? I love JJ Redick, JJ Redick. And I know he got all the Duke guys. They always get hated on, but he was a huge, I loved watching him just come off screens and I don’t know.

That’s all debated now. Was it legal? Not legal, but I mean, just, just the run around and that pure. And he actually has a good podcast himself these days that I listened to his podcast.

[00:01:49] Mike Klinzing: He’s really good. He’s really good. He’s going to end up, I think probably my guess is he ends up in a network studio show or doing games at some point.

I think that that’s probably the direction that he’s had in cause he had his pot is, is possibly good. And then of course, obviously what all the connections that he has just gives you a really good opportunity to be able to get great guests. And he doesn’t actually job with what he’s doing. Of course had just an unbelievable career.

Kind of got off to a slow start in the pros and it looked like maybe he was gonna just kind of become a journeyman and really turned it around after a couple of years and became a guy who wouldn’t play 15, 16 years in the league and had a great career. So you think about your self growing up in Pittsburgh and coming up through the youth basketball ranks.

What do you remember about your, let’s say your age you experienced as a young kid

[00:02:41] Andrew Petcash:  You could say you could go back in time, anywhere. I think AAU will be one of the first places I go. I mean, just, not even just the plane, either the hotels and running around. And a lot of those guys, it’s kind of wild looking back, basically my whole.

So from like fourth grade to eighth grade, maybe ninth grade, we had the same team, same group of guys and almost all of us. I think there was eight out of the 10 all played a sport in college and most at the highest level, but it was only like two of us that played basketball, which was pretty crazy to think about because that was all our main sport at the time.

The travel and the hotels, just playing different competition. I mean that, that was like, I wish there was a you forever. That was the best type of gospel for me. I love the like high school was cool. College was. But AAU basketball. I mean, to me, if you’re on the right team and you’re good and you go like you have good, good group of guys and families, I mean, there’s nothing better than that.

[00:03:44] Mike Klinzing: It really is. I think one of those unique experiences that it’s so different from, again, I’m an old guy, 52 now. And they, you, when I was playing was just, just, just getting started. And so I spent much more time playing pickup basketball and not really much time planning a basketball, I certainly than travel and go to hotels and have those experiences like you had, I instead had time on the playground.

So when you think about those, those times on the road with your, with your teammates, is there, do you have one particular memory that stands out, maybe one on the court, one off the court, something that really sticks in your memory when you think back about that time with those guys?

[00:04:27] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, I think off the court to start out, I remember, so there was a team.

Two years older than us. So we kind of traveled with, cause there was a lot of the older brothers on that team. And one of the guys, his dad played at Pitt and he like his whole family came in and he was a tall kid. I mean, sixth grade, whatever tall is for sixth grade, he was that. But there was a pool in the hotel.

It was a smaller pool, but we like all lined up and he jumped. I mean, none of the parents saw it. I’m sure they would’ve freaked out by the time, but he jumped the entire pool. And I remember just being like, wow, like there are some athletic kids out there and that was my first like real taste of it as you know, I mean, there’s some, there’s some dudes that can jump.

You’re like, Hey, I’m not doing that. I was like, oh, I’ll shoot the ball from one end to the other. But I don’t know about jumping all that far. And then on the court, there was this one team. The Cleveland, they changed their name like every year, but they always had like older guys, reclass guys. And I think there were like the Cleveland warriors or clue up.

I don’t know, but we used to always play them in these championship games. Like every year there’d be like two tournaments were in there and we play in the championship game and we could never beat them. And then finally, like maybe the last year that we were all together, we beat them on the last game.

And it was pretty cool. It actually, some of those guys on that team now, a lot of them went on to play college too. One of the guys he plays on Ohio. I know another guy I’m like Cleveland State. So those are like the cool memories, like AAU basketball in general, just set you up in life. Even the people you play against comes around, goes around and then they’re in your network and you become friends later on, which is always cool to me.

[00:06:12] Mike Klinzing: Cool. Especially when you think about just how interconnected. The basketball space is when you think about, we often look at it from a coach’s perspective, because a lot of times we’re talking to coaches, but you’re right when it comes to the player side of it as well that yeah, you grow up from the time, your fourth, fifth grade, if you’re traveling and you’re playing against other good teams, you’re going to see a lot of those same kids.

And again, after you see them over and over and over again, eventually you kind of get to know them. And again, you stay in touch and now you’ve got them. As you said, as part of your network, when that team broke up, what was your process for finding a new team?

[00:06:53] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, it more so broke up because guys like myself, like we realized that we needed a little more exposure.

Like we were a good team, but we were playing around Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia. And it was like, Hey, we need to get some more of the tournament’s. Now that we’re in high school with a lot of coaches. And some of the guys, like they were athletic, big guys, football players, but basketball, wasn’t their thing.

And that’s when it started to separate a little more. So I, it was more of like a personal decision where I was like, I need to get on a little better team. And then that team, it was like the same dynamic. We were really good and everyone went on to play college and we were, we weren’t a shoe league team, but we would beat the teams, all the shoe league teams all the time that would come to the tournamen’s.

So that, that was really fun. I loved playing on that team.

[00:07:45] Mike Klinzing: you get out and you get into the tournaments that have more exposure and you’re walking around and you’re seeing college coaches from different places. What do you remember about maybe the conversations that you and your teammates had if you saw a coach like, oh man, I always see this guy on TV or there’s whoever, what were those conversations like?

[00:08:05] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. When it first hit you, like that’s. Wow. I remember I could barely ninth grade. I could barely dunk. Like it was my first time. I was like barely rim grazing. We had a bunch of coaches at the game and I remember I was like getting up and I was like a whole nother adrenaline going through me. And I think there was like Bob Huggins.

There was all these guys. I mean, looking back, I probably just based on how I played and my athleticism, I had no real chance to play there, but it was still really cool, right. To play in front of those guys that you see on TV all the time. And then eventually by the time three years in, it’s like nothing else, right?

It’s like seeing your teacher every day in class, you’re just seeing coaches in the gym. Which is, which is good. I don’t think a lot of, not every kid gets to experience that. And I think that’s a big separator is once you become normal and you don’t over a lot of people try to put like push it too hard, or they try to do stuff that they’re not, it’s not really their game when coaches are around, that always hurts them.

And so if you get more, you get used to it, then you usually perform.

[00:09:08] Mike Klinzing: Yeah, that’s a great point. I think it’s very easy if it’s something that, as you said is kind of a one-off that only happens once in a while. I could see where guys put a lot of pressure on themselves. All I got to play well, here’s coach X or Y sitting there.

And I got to make sure that I’m playing well. I got to try to do maybe some things that are beyond my capabilities, versus if you kind of get used to that environment, you go, the coaches are there and you’ve seen them there for a bunch of times that it’s no big deal and you just start playing play the way that you’ve always played.

When you think about the balance between this is a conversation that we’ve had with coaches at all levels, and we’re talking about how they evaluate players. And when you think about your experience, I’m guessing I know the answer based on where the conversation has gone to this point, but I want to ask the question anyway, when you think about your, your recruitment, how much to do you think what you did as a high school player way to get.

What you did in an AAU setting. In other words, did coaches say to you, Hey, we’ve seen it a few and that’s really where we’re evaluating you. How much did they look at what you did in high school? Just what was the balance between those two separate environments?

[00:10:21] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, I mean, they use everything. So in my opinion, I think high school for, well it’s I want to take that back a little.

If you want to play division one, AAU is everything, but if you’re fine at playing any other level than high school has a little more, it has a little more impact. So I earned, I would say one division, one offer from a quote from St. Francis PA, which was a more local school. And the rest were from just high school, but from AAU that’s when I got like my other handful of division one offers along with division two as well.

So, I mean, if you don’t play AAU, I personally, in this day and age and time, I saw something with all these transfers. So my brother, he actually plays for Binghamton university and they just lost last night to Vermont. And, but they beat New Hampshire the game before. And literally the next day after New Hampshire lost their five starters that the transfer portal, they’re five starters.

Like we’re not even, we’re not even talking about like five guys that don’t play. They’re five starters. So like if you’re a high school player these days, okay. You might say, oh, now there’s an opportunity at New Hampshire. Well, not really. They’re probably going to bring in transfers. And now those five guys that have a ton of D1 experience, of course another D one school is going to pick them up.

Some of those guys were, they were the number three seed in the America East standing. So those are good guy, like really good players. They’re going to get picked up. So now the status, I was like 30% less spots for kids coming out of high school to play college basketball. And I’m not sure if that was division one, all levels, et cetera.

I mean, you have to play AAU if you want even a chance, in my opinion, to play at the highest level these days, what are your thoughts on?

[00:12:05] Mike Klinzing: No, I think you’re a hundred percent, right? I think it’s the extra year of eligibility has played havoc for high school kids. Right? So that’s one piece of it. And then the transfer portal is a whole nother thing.

We’ve talked about it, Andrew, where we’ve said it’s not only where you have play. Like you can have players going all directions, right? So it’s not just, so let’s say you have a kid who goes to a mid-major school. That kid what’s allowed mid-majors in the past to be, to be good and make tournament runs is you get some kids who are under the radar, maybe they’re late developing whatever.

Some, for some reason, the bigger schools don’t want them coming out of high school. Now that kid comes in, you develop them over the course of four years. And by the time that kid’s a senior, maybe you have. No, 2, 3, 4 seniors and couple juniors. And now suddenly you have an experienced team where you can go in and compete.

And now kid goes to a mid-major school and averages, 10 points, a game as a freshman, the odds of that kids sticking around. And I don’t know what it is, but it’s pretty, it’s pretty low, right? I mean that kid’s going to probably go and play for a power five school because that power five school looks at the kid and says he doesn’t have to adjust to college.

Doesn’t have to adjust just the academics. It doesn’t have to adjust to being away from home. We already know he can go through a college season and be a good player. So you just eliminate whatever risk there is with a high school kid. You’re basically eliminate that. If you’re taking a kid, who’s had success already at college basketball.

And then I think you can also look at it and go the other way. So maybe now a kid who goes to a power five school and doesn’t have the amount of success that they think they should. Now, those kids are moving down. And so then if you’re a high school kid is looking to go to a mid-major well, maybe they’re getting the 12th man from Michigan.

And what do they need some high school kid when they got these other retreats. I just think that it’s as a college coach and trying to build a program and have continuity. And that basically what your ad to me, what you’re signing up for is you’re just coaching a different team every year. It’s like every year, we’re just, we’re just running it back with a whole new set of guys.

I think that’s how I think that’s the mentality you’d have to have as a college coach.

[00:14:25] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, no, I agree. But one, so I guess the real question is then how do you, how do you get guys to stay? Like, how do you convince the mid-major player? That’s averaging say 12 points, a game to stay an extra year, or how do you convince the 12th man on Michigan to stay?

Like what, what approach you take as a coach?

[00:14:46] Mike Klinzing: I think what you have to do is you have to build. Relationships and build the type of culture and build the type of overall experience that makes that kid want to stay. And there’s probably a million things, right. That go into building the right culture and the right kind of experience.

So that, that kid wants to say to me, a lot of it comes down to I’d say the biggest piece of it is the relationship between the player and the coach. If you are a coach and you’re not investing in your players, not only on the basketball floor and try to develop them as players, because let’s face it today, especially if you’re playing division one basketball, most kids at some point are thinking that they’re going to have an opportunity to play professionally, at least overseas.

Right? Most kids have that in their mind. If you’re a division one player, that’s probably what you’re thinking. So as a coach, I think one of your jobs is to develop them as players. But then I think the more important part of getting them to stick around. You got to have that relationship with them so that they know that you care about them off the floor.

You’ve got to try to do everything that you possibly can to not bend over backwards, to keep them happy. Cause that’s the wrong way of saying it, but you have to be the type of coach and have the type of relationship that that player wants to be around. You wants to be around the program. And part of that goes to what kind of facilities does your program have?

How much are you investing in things off the floor? What kind of fan base do you have? And those are all things that maybe the coach can’t directly control. But certainly I think as a coach, you’ve got to try to create the kind of experience that a player wants to stick around for. So think about yourself, right?

With AAU, the guys that you played with, the families that were a part of that. So think about as a coach, like who’s your staff, who are the people that you’re bringing in, who are the other players? Does the player get along with it? There’s so many things that go into it and I think. I think it’s tough because everybody sees the grass is greener on the other side, but they don’t always see that there’s also problems no matter where you go, no matter where you go, nothing’s ever going to be perfect.

And I think in today’s world, kids just are ready and maybe even more than kids, parents are just ready to say, Hey, you can get more over here, then you can get there. I think that’s, I think that’s the big issue.

[00:17:13] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. So when I was at Boston, U we only had one kid transfer, one undergraduate transfer. So I think like high academic schools with full rides that helps too, like kids didn’t I think on my team there, there were certain guys that would have transferred had like the piece of paper you get from going to Boston university, which when I was there, it was, I think the number 42 best school in the country, according to whatever rank.

But like that holds guys in as well. So yeah, I think a lot of it is out of, out of control, but if I’m an athletic department, I’m thinking of every way to keep guys cause we had one of the kids on my team. He transferred in from Texas tech. And I remember like, we became really good friends and a few of the conversations he’s like, wait, you don’t have a cook, make your food for you.

We don’t have golf carts to drive you around campus. You don’t have saunas in the locker room. You don’t have on like I don’t know any different, but like from coming down, I could see how that would be hard for someone like that. But the, I mean the power pots have all the bells and whistles so I can see why guys want to move up because they want to experience that at least for a year.

And especially if you’ve already got your degree and that all comes back to that extra year, which that’s going to have lingering effects for several years to come.

[00:18:31] Mike Klinzing: Most likely it’s going to take a while to kind of run its way through the system before things get back. Quote unquote normal, which I’m not sure how, I’m not sure what normal looks like moving forward, but all I know is as a college coach, it’s gotta be extremely challenging.

And I think when you look at this, what’s interesting is there’s always been that complaint, right? That coaches can pick up and leave whenever they want to. And there’s no penalty. They didn’t have to sit out a year. The way players previously had to sit out a year if they transferred. And so there was always that backlash of where I don’t players have the same rights.

And now that players have the same rights look, there’s, there’s certainly something positive to be said for right. You go to a situation, the coach leaves a situation. Isn’t what you thought it was. You’re not locked in there. You’re not having to go and transfer and then spend a year just being a practice dummy and not getting to play in games.

There’s certainly something positive you said for that. And yet the downside of it is that when you have guys just jumping around everywhere, Look, it makes sense for some guys, but I think I be curious, let’s say we do a long-term study five or 10 years from now after you really have some data points about how much benefit there was to guys that went through and transferred.

I think you’re right. When you talk about the grad transfers to me, that makes a ton of sense. I mean, that’s, that’s clearly I think a huge positive, but I’d be curious to see guys who transfer as undergrads, what that really looks like both in terms of their basketball career and in terms of what they ended up doing academically as well.

[00:20:07] Andrew Petcash: No doubt. And I think this and I don’t want to get ahead of myself here, but like leading into NIL even, I mean, it’s only gonna get worse in terms of numbers of transfers. I think there was like 17 or 1800 last year. And this year we’re probably over 2000, for sure. Without a doubt. And now you’re going to have guys that say they’re at, I don’t know, I’ll pick a random school SMU.

Solid. I think it’s the American conference, right? Under power five. So you average 12 points a game, but you don’t really have any NIL activity. And then there’s, I don’t know, Kentucky, Michigan State, whatever. They have some collective or they have something where they can be like, Hey, we can get you 70 K next year.

And this stuff happened obviously beforehand, but under the table. And now it’s just all brought to light, but like now players are going to be like in a free agency type setting where they’re leaving. They’re going, Hey, I did my time. I had two good years at SMU. Now let me go pick my options.

[00:21:10] Jason Sunkle: I have the James Harden of college basketball. That’s right.

Mike Klinzing: Hey, Jason. Okay. And then to my condo where it got the microphone to work. All right. Good. Well, James,

Jason Sunkle:  I just wanted to, we love James Hart on this podcast. Andrew Mike it’s Mike’s favorite player in the NBA. And I say that very facetiously.

[00:21:24] Andrew Petcash: He likes all the dribbling,

[00:21:27] Mike Klinzing: I love all the dribbling and all the missed shots during clutch. That last, before we started recording,

[00:21:33] Jason Sunkle: The last thing that Mike texted me was James harden is one for nine and a bunch of clown face emojis.

[00:21:38] Mike Klinzing: So there you go. Sixers nets tonight. Ooh, man. I don’t know. Maybe you starting around, but man, that guy, I would your, if you’re hanging your franchise on James harden that I feel for you.

So yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. I just feel like the whole thing. It’s just like anything there’s unintended consequences and what has some positive points? There’s also some clearly some negative points and I don’t know what the right answer is. I don’t know how you, how you regulate the transfer portal and make it better clearly.

There’s no way you could spin it. I don’t think that it’s a negative for players. It’s just, I think players and schools and families have to figure out how to best navigate it. It goes back to your question that you asked me before, too. How do you get kids to stay? Well, man, if you have somebody on your staff, somebody in your athletic department, who’s on top of NIL, right.

And is negotiating those deals and is helping players to navigate that. I mean, at this point that’s probably one of the most valuable people in the whole athletic department. If you have somebody who’s good at that.

[00:22:51] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, no, no doubt about that. Yeah. One of my buddies, he’s the youngest director of football operations in the country called Peterson, but his dad just got hired at Cincinnati.

He’s a long time coach and he’s like the associate head coach, but one of his other responsibilities is. And he’s just like, absolutely like crushing it going in and talking to all the local businesses and just trying to pump out stuff for Cincinnati football players. So it’s like having someone like him, huge in a major program, in my opinion,

[00:23:25] Mike Klinzing: I think if you have somebody who’s good. When you think about how immeshed in immersed colleges are with the communities where they are like, I mean, so the university of Cincinnati within the community of Cincinnati, like those players are well-known universities. Well-known the number of people that are fans.

And then you think about all the different local businesses that would love to tag an athlete onto their commercials or as an endorsement. And I it’s, just, to me, it seems like if you were on top of it and you knew what you were doing as a college, as a program, whether that’s football, basketball, whatever, it just seems like.

The deals would almost write themselves if you’re doing your due diligence and do what you’re supposed to do.

[00:24:13] Andrew Petcash: You know, I saw Drew Timme, the guy for Gonzaga, he released, they released like a little preview trailer. He’s got a dollar shave club commercial for the, for the tournament. So that’s pretty cool.

Like I like, I’m excited to see, I mean, March madness could be like the next super bowl for commercials, especially with that. I’ll now. Cause like seeing all these guys in commercials, I mean, it could be an women. I don’t want to forget about them. That could be pretty cool. But I mean, one thing is gonna be interesting.

I’m actually writing an article putting it together with this other guy in and he’s taking more look at the business of like March madness, an NCA as a whole, but I’m breaking down the NIL component. And one of the things I’m looking at is in CBS already sold out all of their ad slots for the, for the the rights for the, the games, but looking at like what if they would take and I’m referring to brands.

So let’s just use. I don’t know, Sprite, for example, instead of paying for a $2 million commercial slot, what if they put that $2 million towards social posts, like posts on Tik TOK, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, with athletes through NISL deals, like what would have the higher ROI? And I think that’s something we could even see a shift in, and I’m sure some of these brands are, are thinking about that.

Cause I think, I mean, having your own players promote during the game is, I mean, that that’s a great deal for brands.

[00:25:37] Mike Klinzing: It seems like it would be a no brainer that if you could get that going and you think about where we are in terms of the social media side of it, we’re trying to, we’re going to dive into a little bit more as we do forward here, but players building their own brand and building their content channels on social media.

And now you look at the number of people who don’t already have. The exposure coming in, who aren’t athletes, the number of people who have built huge followings, wherever Tik-TOK, Twitter, YouTube, wherever you want to be. And now you talk about these athletes having a built-in platform beforehand, and then you get into the whole March, March madness.

And the exposure that they have, it’s just a, to me, it seems like it’s, it’s almost limitless that somebody who is creative in this area could, could really make a killing. It’s just, I mean, it’s just, it almost seems like it falls right in your lap.

[00:26:34] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. For some of the guys, I think that’s a true statement.

But for some of them, I think it’s probably much harder where they actually have to put in the work. Like, I mean, if your Chet Holmgren, I mean, he’s all his life over time. All the media companies do all the work for them and he gets all the followers. So like they kinda like boosted his stock, but for some of the lower end guy.

Like I’m thinking of even like the Andrew Nahum from Gonzaga that he probably has to put in a little more work, like actually building a brand on social media, et cetera. But, but yeah, I mean, it’s, these guys cam…

[00:27:12] Mike Klinzing: Those guys could be more local, right? You’re talking about the, the back-end starters or guys off the bench.

Like those are the guys that are probably good candidates to hock for the local car dealership or those kinds of things. Whereas if you’re Chad home grid, you’re talking about, you’re looking for more national companies would think.

[00:27:30] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. And even like Boston, you like some of the people in the athletic department they’ve been reaching out to me about helping getting the, you guys deals.

And I’m like, well, listen, like, I’m just going to be honest. Like none of them have good enough socials for like anything national, but you’re in Boston. Why don’t you go reach out to all the companies in the local area? I’m sure there are already sponsors at the court. They’re already sponsors for banquets, et cetera.

I’m sure they’d be glad to spend a few hundred, few thousand dollars. And what I mean, what if your guys all get free food for a year, that’s just as good of an NIR deal in my opinion as getting cash. So, so that, I mean, it’s really only the 1%, which I think has been a. I guess the opposing side likes to bring that up, but like, okay.

Like it’s still 1%, which is still better than none. So exactly.

[00:28:19] Mike Klinzing: I would have been very happy to hock Ponderosa commercials. Back when I was in college, I would have been more than happy to do that. So if they would, if they would have fed me for a year, that would have been Mike, do you know how many of our listeners probably don’t even remember that Ponderosa existed?

I mean, there’s no ponderosas and Ponderosa was a bad steak buffet restaurant, but we would always go there. We’d have practice on Saturday morning and then we’d go have like an inner squad scrimmage, scrimmage of the preseason. And then we’d go and sit at Ponderosa for like four hours. Well, this my parents met and worked at Ponderosa.

There’s a Relic. There you go. All right. So imagine Ponderosa doubly connected to Ponderosa. It’s all good. I would have loved to eat free for.

[00:29:07] Andrew Petcash: Is Ponderosa the ones with the real good bread rolls, or am I thinking of somewhere else? Well, no, you must golden corral. That was corral back in the day.

[00:29:17] Mike Klinzing: Ponderosa had like, you get the cheap T-bone for like 6 99, then you could get the buffet where they had this.

This was pre, this was pre players understanding how important nutrition was. They were the first people to offer free refills, fun fact about Ponderosa first people that offer free refills. There you go. All right. I knew it. Look, I got a lot of free refills there, again, probably not the healthiest situation, but nonetheless, we spent a lot of time spent a lot of time there just sitting at the side, probably eating them out of house and home.

They probably wouldn’t happy to have us eat for free. All right. So talk to me a little bit about your decision to go to BU.

[00:29:52] Andrew Petcash: So crazy recruiting process. I mean, I did a lot of really dumb stuff which I can kind of laugh about now. Skip it all the offers, et cetera. It comes out. I go on a visit my senior, yeah, my senior fall to Army West Point, which was one of the schools that an offer from.

And they take me to a football game, the whole deal, a normal official visit. It’s awesome. I love it. But I get really bought in and I’m not really paying attention to too much. They take me out to a fun bar or something. Oh, it’s dumb. It’s army. But like, this is cool. This is fun. You know, they told me all the good things and then becomes the signing day and the coach texts me and he’s like, so what are you guys doing for sine day?

We’d love to come down and put on a huge, so, and I go coach, to be honest, seven thinking about it. I don’t, I don’t think I’m going to sign for West Point anymore. And it was the disasters. I’m sure you can imagine just being a dumb 18 year old kid. I just, I didn’t know. And funny enough, I I actually.

Army west points in the Patriot league, which was BU so I played them twice a year for, I played them eight times in my career and the coach never shook my hand, never looked at me, but he’s a great guy. Besides the fact and it was just funny to me because coaches do that kind of stuff to players all the time.

And when it was flipped, reversed it was interesting to see how it reacted. But nonetheless, that happened, went to the state championship my senior year, for some reason, I was never really worried. Like I knew something was gonna go, was going to happen. Someone’s going to fall in my lap because I lost all my other offers too.

Cause I mean, word gets around. It’s a tight community. They thought I was committed there as well. So I play another spring of a AEU after my senior season, I go and look at some prep schools in the Northeast. I decide on one new Hampton and it’s about a week. So I, I started earning some offers again because now I’m Reclast I have another year.

And be was one of them. And then a week before I’m supposed to go to new Hampton, Boston, you calls me and goes, one of our guys left. We had some issues. Do you want to come a year early? And I go, ah, let me come up for a visit. So I go for a visit. I really like it. I accept. And that was kind of, kind of the end of the story.

And it worked out pretty well, but there was definitely an unorthodox. You don’t hear about too many guys go into picking their school a year or a week before classes start. And I had a, I had a gang Buster first semester, eight AM’s and like 7:00 PM classes and all this all over the place, because I mean, they put it together at the last second, but it was a, I learned a lot in my brother.

So my younger brother, he got the he learned all of them to avoid all this, which was about everything.

[00:32:46] Mike Klinzing: It’s kind of amazing. When you think about just the recruiting process and how number one, as you said as an 18 year old kid, and you just aren’t necessarily thinking about the ins and outs and how the process works.

And then if your family doesn’t necessarily have a lot of experience, it, depending upon your age, you coach, and a high school coach, and who’s getting who you’re getting advice from and where it goes, it’s just, it’s, there’s more information available now than there ever has been. But I know when I was being recruited, like I had no idea of my family had no idea.

My parents had no idea. And so you make you end up making mistakes and doing things that you’re like, oh, it should have been pretty obvious that I shouldn’t have done that. But you ended up, you ended up just doing some pretty silly things in the course of eventually hopefully finding your way to the note, to the right place, to a good program, to the place that is going to make sense for you.

When you want the school, what was your original thought in terms of what you wanted to study?

[00:33:43] Andrew Petcash: Oh, I had no idea. I just knew. Well, I actually, at first I thought I was like, ah, I might want to go into medical. I might want to be a doctor. And that quickly evaporated in the first week on campus. When my advisors are like, yeah, no one’s ever done that in the history of basketball.

It’s not going to work. You have labs, et cetera. So I was like, yeah, you know what? I don’t really want to do that either. So I just kind of toyed around for two years and I always kind of knew like for me personally, like I wasn’t too, I was interested in like business topics, like real estate. Is that what I ended up majoring in, but I was just trying to soak up all the classes that seemed interesting to me.

So I did a lot of marketing and all that stuff, but I always knew I wanted to start my own things anyway, or at least be like partnered with, with people that store their own things. So to me, it was just kind of a part of the process. So I was really there to, and I probably shouldn’t say this, but I was really there just to hoop.

[00:34:43] Mike Klinzing: Let’s face it. Most of us who go to school, school ends up being, or starts out, probably being a secondary it’s like I have a daughter and I’ve told this story a couple of times in the pod, but I think it’s worth sharing with you. So I have a daughter who’s gonna be a senior this year and she’s trying to pick a school and she’s a really good student, has never had a B in her entire schooling career.

So she kind of has her pick of she’d go pretty much anywhere, but she doesn’t have a definitive idea of what she wants to study or really what kind of school she’s looking for. And so when she comes to me for advice, I’m like, I don’t know what you should look at. I just picked the school because of basketball.

I had the school, the school itself had nothing to do with it. I didn’t care about the academic programs. I didn’t care about meeting professors. I didn’t care about the campus. And none of that stuff, even remotely factored in, for me, it was just where am I going to go to school so I can play basket.

And for, so for me to be able to give her advice and like, I don’t know, I don’t know what you base it on. Like, just look at some pictures on the web. So you wouldn’t see which place has a nice campus. It looks like you might find would too. I don’t know.

[00:35:53] Andrew Petcash: Well, yeah, that actually brings up something funny that I just thought about.

So like I had no idea, like Boston new, great school, like all these kids, I went to a pretty good public high school where a lot of guys and girls go to Notre Dame, Ivy leagues, they go to really good schools. And I always remember just, I was an okay student. Like I was just doing my thing. I was pretty smart, but like, I didn’t study.

I didn’t put a lot of time in. And I remember one day, some girl. Cause when I lost all my offers, like people knew about it. Cause it was like this bone head. What’s he doing on this long girl? We’ll call her Mary. She just goes like, oh, you’re not going anywhere. You’re gonna, you’re gonna end up at like a trade school.

You’re not gonna do anything. Which first off there’s nothing wrong with that. It was just funny that like, when I ended up signing to Boston university, all the people that put in all the work that, I mean, one of my good friends that played tennis, he, all he wanted to do was go to like a Patriot league or Ivy league.

And he did every he took the act, sat like 20 times. And then I ended up there with like a three oh GPA, 25 act, like not even close to what these people were doing. And I was like, man, should I played basketball? What do you want me to tell you? But, but it was little things like her that like, stuff like that, that always motivated me.

I’m always trying to use stuff like that as extra motivation and just kind of funny that it turned out that I ended up going to a really good school.

[00:37:16] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. Little things like that are definitely things that you remember when people say stuff, whether that’s just gotten you or making fun of you or whatever those are.

I think those things probably stick with me and I’m sure stick with you that that’ll be with you for the rest of your life. You’ll always, you’ll always, you will always have. Conversation that you had with her in the back of your mind without, without question. And it is true when you look at the ability of somebody to go to a particular school, if you play football and you can play basketball and you get a lot more leeway when it comes to getting into the better schools.

And I think that look, the athletes who are smart, right? You go there and yeah, you’re focused on playing ball, but once you get there to get on campus, I think you start to realize that, Hey, I got to take advantage of what I have and I look at it. If I could go back in time, I probably didn’t get as much out of my college academic career as I, could’ve not that I didn’t get good grades because I did, but more so of the things that I was learning, I was kind of like, eh I’ve got to get through and get my, get my, a, B a B, whatever it is, but not necessarily diving in. I think if I went back and took my college curriculum today, I’d get way more out of the classes sitting there as an old guy, as opposed to what I got out of them when I was 18 or 19 years old, where I was just kinda trying to get through my day to get to basketball.

[00:38:45] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. I mean, people don’t understand that grind either.

Like I hated it at times when you’re involved in it, but I think it has a really long lasting effect for the rest of your life. Cause even sometimes now when I have to wake up early or do something and I’m like, man, I’d rather do this than, than what I used to go there. So there’s that aspect as well.

But I mean, at least for me for school, I was always just thinking more about like connections and networking going okay. Like who can I now? Who can I now say, oh, I was a division one basketball player and I want the Boston university, like who fits in those two categories. And it’s crazy how far that will take you.

And it already has. So, and then back to your point, even about like helping getting in school, I mean, if you’re, and I tell this to my cousins, like my younger cousins, like if you’re trying to go to a really good school, just play a sport, you don’t even have to be that good. And just talk to the coaches about walking on and they can help you get admitted with lower grades and stuff.

Like at least go that route. And then you can, if you don’t want to end up playing the sport, you can literally quit two weeks in like people, I see people do that all the time, especially at the U S saw a lot of people do that with like, rowing like that. And I’m like, you’re so smart. Cause like they go around campus like recruiting people and I’m like, man, let’s be, we’re paying 80,000 a year to, to wake up at four in the morning and just row a boat.

I’m like, that sucks. But like there was like 30 girls at the start of the year that they’re freshmen and they got into school saying they were going to row and then they just quit because it helped them get in. And I was like, no, they’re the real smart ones. That’s a good strategy.

[00:40:20] Mike Klinzing: We had somebody tell us that what you should do is at schools look at their majors and then find like a really obscure major, like say I’m really passionate about Korean studies and I need to this is, this is the program that I’ve always dreamed of and then get on campus, get registered for your Korean studies classes. And then two weeks in that’s not quite what I thought.

I think I’m going to drop those classes. Maybe get into the weekends at a business school. So somebody else

[00:40:51] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. Maybe just do it, all those people at USC to just pay, pay the professors and the coaches just, just don’t get caught and you’ll be good.

[00:40:59] Mike Klinzing: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It’s I don’t know.

As expensive as colleges today, let’s put this way. Being able to be able to get some money for athletics is certainly something that is, if you can do it, it definitely helps. And now with the NIL piece of it, if you get an opportunity to even you put a few bucks in your pocket, or like you said, you get an opportunity.

The free or whatever it might be. I just think it opens up a whole nother world of possibilities. I know one of the things that you wrote an article about was, and it came to mind as you were talking about the grind of division one college basketball. And I often think about my experience, just how there were days, especially when I was a freshman, I didn’t play very much in my last three years.

I played a lot. It wasn’t, it was a little easier, but my freshman year, it was really, really tough to kind of grind through and make it to practice. You wrote an article about the difference between a coach that is a tough coach and a coach that you know, that it’s just somebody who’s, who doesn’t, who doesn’t do a good job, but they could have similar qualities.

But, but just maybe talk a little bit about in your mind, what makes somebody a tough coach versus somebody who’s just a pain in the neck?

[00:42:15] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, I think the tough coach. Like first off, they always have your back and like, they got you, no matter what. And, and they, the way they do things is like, they might get mad at you.

And this is like, you see this in families as well. Like you’re able to get mad at each other or fight. Like, I always see that’s how people are good friends is like, they can get mad at each other and like joke around and kind of fight a little. Cause that’s like what me and my brothers always did.

So like, I know my really good friends, like that’s how we are as well. So it’s like that kind of family relationship with a coach almost where they’re going to get really mad or et cetera, but it’s because they want the best for you. And then on the flip after practice the next day, whatever they’re gonna be okay, you understand why I got mad?

Like, it’s all cool. And it’s good. But I think the ones that, that don’t do that well is they’ll do that same thing, but then like, they’ll ignore you or they won’t talk to you for several days or they just do little petty things and it’s like, W, why are you doing that? Like what, like what purpose are you serving?

Like without the players, like coaches need the players, players kind of need the coaching for sure. But it’s like that there was, there was always this like little things like that, that I saw in other coaches as well. And I always tried to pick up like what a good coaches do. And it’s like, they get on guys, but then they like reconcile and usually they don’t even have to say anything cause it’s just like eventually they just know like it’s just a shared bond.

[00:43:45] Mike Klinzing: That relationship piece, right. So important. I think so much of what you, what you see sometimes I think in bad coaches is exactly what you said. Like they want to get on a player. They want to get after a player and it becomes this. It’s almost a psychological warfare where then okay, then I’m not going to talk to you.

I’m going to stop rather be mad as opposed to look in the moment. I’m trying to get the most out of you. So I might yell, I might get angry. I might push you harder than you want to be pushed, but 20 minutes after practice, we could sit down and watch film together and work on trying to get you better.

And I think that’s the difference is you got to invest in the players and the players have to know that you have their back and that you care about them and that ultimately you want what’s best for them. And that’s why you’re pushing hard. And I think a coach who doesn’t communicate that, and you can define communication, obviously in a lot of different ways, but a coach who doesn’t communicate that that’s where you run the risk of it’s the grind of college basketball, especially at the division one level.

And especially today, like, I think about what you went through in your career, just in terms of the summer stuff. And maybe we should talk about that a little bit too, but it was completely different back when I played. I got done with my season. They handed me like a two page worksheet worksheet. They’re like, all right, we’ll see it.

We’ll see you back here in August. And that was it. And obviously, now guys are on campus 50 weeks out of the year and a lot of cases. And so I think that makes it even more important that that player, coach relationship there better be there better be a bond between the two, because man, if you had somebody that you didn’t like, or that didn’t like you, or that didn’t invest in you to spend that much time with them, man, that’d be tough.

[00:45:40] Andrew Petcash:  Yeah. And you see that? I mean, that’s tough. Always it’s tough for both sides. But yeah, I mean, summer, I don’t know how you want to get into that if you want to.

[00:45:51] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. So just tell me a little bit about like, so what’s it. Cause I, I feel like, and I know the times were different. So like when I got done playing, when our season ended, I just wanted to go play some pickup basketball and just play.

And just be able to have some fun and then get away from it and then kind of work on my game. Just me going back to kind of my high school days where I’m just trying to get better and I’m in the gym working out my game. I didn’t necessarily want to listen to the same coaches that were chirping at me all year sharp at me all summer.

So just, what was that like for you and how did you handle it? What were your thoughts about it? And obviously you don’t you didn’t grow up and live in the system that I live in. So you can only kind of go through your own experience, but just talk to me a little bit about what that was like, maybe how the coaches tried to handle that to deal though, because we’ve had some college coaches that have said you never want to have less access to your players, but in a lot of ways, I think coaches sometimes think it’s too much too.

[00:46:50] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, for me it was too much. I think it was actually, it hurt more than it helped. Because. First off you went through a whole season and like you said, you just wanted to play pickup basketball. Well, we, college basketball is very, very structured and like, I love basketball, but I started to lose like, I guess maybe burnout’s the right word, but like, because it was so structured and you can never really just go play.

It was always like this workout play this way once, like you just want to, you grew up just playing free your whole life. And it became way too structured and felt like a job. And when you throw that in the summer, it’s like, it kinda like backfires. And for example, Colgate, they won the Patriot league title last night and they were in the, they were in our conference.

My junior year we beat them in the championship and then COVID happened, which sucked. But literally the one year, the one year there’s not an NCAA tournament, but don’t get me started on that. I’ll get all fired up. But they never had guys in the summer and they’ve been in the championship. The last five.

So like you can’t tell me that having gods on the summer versus not like makes too much of a difference. All they did is they had a camp, they hosted camps like kids’ camps, elite camps for two weeks in the summer and all the guys, not all of them, most of them would come back and they would just work the camps.

So they’d make money. And then they’d play pickup, hang out with the guys. And that was it for the whole summer. Meanwhile, we had two summer sessions that were six weeks long or five weeks long, something like that. And we have to take a class, which it was nice to take your class. Cause then you get a harder one out of the way in the summer instead of the fall or the spring.

But then you have individual workouts, then you have lifting and the lifting is much harder in the summer than it is in the fall or the spring. And you also have like team workouts. But, but the cool thing is that did lead us to go to Spain as well. So we got to go on a Spain trip, which was an awesome 10 days.

All in all like the summer to me was kind of a waste. It was some of the best times in terms of just hanging out with the guys, you have a lot of free time. It’s really nice in the Northeast. I’m like, Boston’s great for three months of the year. And just hanging out and going out and not too many responsibilities, but in terms of basketball, to me, it was, it didn’t do much.

I got better from the three or four weeks. I was at home during the year than I did the nine to 10 weeks in the summer I was at school.

[00:49:20] Mike Klinzing: How did your staff handle it? What was their approach to it ops? Obviously they’re not having a conversation with you. Like, oh, we don’t want to be doing this, but just, what does it look like in terms of how they handle it and structured it?

And what was the attitude like and their approach to it compared to their approach? Let’s say during the,

[00:49:38] Andrew Petcash: I mean, it was a little more laid back, but a lot of it was setting the groundwork, right? Cause you bring their whole approach, which I get, this is let’s bring the freshmen in and they make the freshmen go to both summer sessions.

Where the, like, anyone else, they let you only pick one. So you have to go to one, but there’s only one mandatory. So like the first summer sessions, mostly just workouts and like one-on-ones so like I get that, bring the freshmen in, break them in you know, have him play, get used to the college, speed, the campus, et cetera.

A little more. But you have to remember, like, especially during July there’s AAU. So they’re literally on campus, like two or three days of the week, and then they’re traveling. So it’s like, you’re on your own a lot anyway. And you’re kind of forced to a schedule. So like, for me, I liked being at home and having like my lifting routine.

Cause I liked what I did, but then you go to school, it’s like, you don’t have any say in that, like you’re going to do like what they tell you to do. And like what they told me to do it might’ve been good for two or three other people, but for my body type, I needed something a little different.

And so like when, if I was at home, I would’ve been able to. Give myself more ready in that sense, but I mean, the coaches were, were good about it. I get their points, but overall, I would say it makes more sense to have to have like to go for maybe two or three weeks in the summer, or maybe two, two week sessions instead of just five to 10 weeks.

[00:51:02] Mike Klinzing: It just seems like it’s way too much. I just don’t see how, when you’re, when it’s that demanding during the season and as a coaching staff, you pour so much into it. And then to spend all that time, it just feels like as a coach, Jason and I are both teachers now. And the idea of having your students all year long and then like, we have some, my school, we offer summer school and there’s some teachers on the staff that then they go and teach summer school.

And I mean, I can’t run away from that fast enough as a teacher, I’m like, I need a break. And I would think as coaches. To keep grinding away all that time. It just feels like everybody, like you said, would benefit from the opportunity to get away. And I get why more access coaches are never going to say, oh, we want less access to our players.

But in a lot of cases, it’s too much. So here in the state of Ohio, once COVID hit Ohio used to have a rule that in June, you were allowed to coach, you had 10 days as a high school coach. You could have 10 days with your team of coaching. So you could take a team camp, you could practice for eight hours a day.

You could do whatever you wanted. So you had these 10 contact days and otherwise you could only have open gym. So you could open up the gym and guys could play, but you could coach. And then as a result of COVID because the seasons got shut down and teams, a lot of teams didn’t play a lot of games, not this past most recent season, but the season before.

They basically Ohio just said, you can now have on limited contact as much as you want in June and July. So now as a high school coach, you could theoretically have your guys every single day of the summer. And there are some coaches who’ve done that. And then there are other coaches who obviously have not done seven days a week, but it’s just it’s to me, it feels like it’s too much.

Like there’s a, there’s a happy medium there. Like, yeah, you might want more than 10 days, but when you start getting into every day and then if you’re a coach and you don’t do every day and the guy in the next city over the next school is doing that, then people are looking at you going, why aren’t you doing that?

And you’re like, cause I’m a high school coach and I’ve got a family and I’ve got you know, the kids need to get away from me and I need to get away from them a little. It’s just, I think there’s, I think it’s a case of how much is too much.

[00:53:36] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, well, the problem is more so like the burnout and then the injuries, like, you’d see a lot of guys get hurt in October, September for us, which is like to me, because the whole summer you’re grinding, then you go home for like two weeks, right before school starts, you come back, you ease it.

Then you go like full speed. And it’s like, your body was just bent to been through too much, too many ups and downs. And you know, that’s when we’d have a lot of guys go down, I mean, I got hurt, I think twice in that time period as well. And it’s not like they’re, they’re like overuse injuries for most of the guys.

[00:54:13] Mike Klinzing: And then you think about the way that guys are playing. You talked about it over here, playing AAU from the time fourth grade, right? So you’re basically playing all Richard law and then you’re playing again, all these games on the AAU circuit and kids are playing as many different sports as they used to.

And so if you want to be good. Any kind of skill specific sport. You’ve got to start putting in time when you’re younger, it becomes more and more of a challenge to get people to understand that you can still be a multi-sport at happy when you’re gone and still have success. As you get older. There’s not that many people that are subscribing to that theory anymore.

Even though I think it’s one that has a lot of merit that you could wait longer to start specializing than what kids typically do today. Just because I think parents look around, they see, oh, a neighbor’s kid is playing in this and why he can’t play summer baseball. Cause he’s got to be playing 58 games this summer.

And once you get the high school and you get to a point where yeah, it’s time to probably pick a sport, it’s really difficult unless you’re an incredible athlete or you at a really small school. I think it’s hard to play three sports and it’s certainly hard to be the star. You don’t, you don’t see many.

Star athletes anymore. You might see somebody who plays three sports still, but they’re probably not the best player in any one of those sports, just because of the amount of time it takes and how skilled people are today. So it’s just a different, it’s a different way of kind of approaching it. I think those overuse injuries are certainly something that are a factor.

I know that I’ve read some stuff about NBA teams being really worried about Gaza. Zaja who’s been out for ages that how much of the amount of time that he spent running up and down a corridor. Okay. Mike, we got to include them in our guests and the guests I’m stoking

[00:56:10] Jason Sunkle: Andrew. Okay. So I want your honest opinion.  I’ve placed the over-under at 250 games of Zion’s NBA career. Will he play more or less than 250 games? How many has he played so far? 84, I think. Right Mike. Is that right? 85, 85. Basically triple that. Wow. That’s a good, that’s a good drafting should include that. Ooh,

[00:56:39] Mike Klinzing: the promotion promotion, and it’s going to draft Kings Draft Kings is jumping on, so we’ll have a Draft Kings promotion as part of the episode, but make sure you jump out here during conference championship weekend, get your bets in for DraftKings, for sure.

[00:56:52] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. I don’t know. I, I would say he’s gonna play, he’s gonna play under that many, he seems like another Greg Oden.

[00:57:08] Mike Klinzing: Well, it tells you look, look, it’s certainly, it’s entirely, it’s entirely possible. I’m choosing, I’m choosing to be optimistic, but the realist in me says that maybe you guys are right. I don’t know the body type that he has and. Where it looks like he is right now in the moment, it doesn’t seem like he’s going to come back this year.

So you got another loss season. You cross your fingers and hope that it’s, it’s a Joe LNB situation that he struggles out of the gate and eventually gets his body. Right. He’s able to get back on the floor and play.

[00:57:42] Andrew Petcash: It’s all going to be who’s in his circle. I don’t know who’s in his circle, but if he has the right people, he’ll be fine.

If he doesn’t, then he’ll probably struggle. And you know, could have been, should have been slightly deal. The solicitor

[00:57:53] Mike Klinzing: If he had the right people in his circle, he wouldn’t be at the

[00:57:56] Jason Sunkle: buffet all the time. Andrew, I’m just telling you, I’m sorry. That probably seems rude, but it’s been the running theme that we’ve talked about.

[00:58:02] Mike Klinzing: He just needs to, he needs to get a nutritionist. That’s what he really needs. He needs a nutritionist to meet at a certain, at a certain point. Right. You just have to, you either start to take your career more seriously and try to figure out, Hey, what does it take in order for me to be able to play. You don’t and eventually look, your talent takes you a long way, but eventually your talent starts to diminish, starts to run out.

And if you can’t stay healthy, your career’s going to be over faster than certainly anybody would’ve believed was possible when I first got drafted. That’s for sure.

[00:58:38] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. I mean, we’ll see. Yep.

[00:58:43] Mike Klinzing: He’s such a unique player that I hope he gets back. That’s why I try to take the optimistic side of things, but who knows, you mentioned just a second ago about players with like Zion and having the right network around you.

And you talked about earlier for yourself, just as a college athlete and a college student athlete, try to look around and say, okay, who can I connect with when I start thinking about what I’m going to do once I graduated from college. So talk a little bit about that process and how it sort of led you into.

What you’re doing now and kind of the direction that your career is taking to get started, for sure.

[00:59:18] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. So, I mean, personally myself, I always knew, like I kind of wanted to do somewhat of my own thing. I liked building things. I know I get bored with stuff pretty easily. So to me it was like, I’m going to have a hard time kinda like sitting out at office or going and doing like a finance job, which is what a lot of, not only my teammates, but people at BU ended up doing.

So it was all about kind of finding the people that they have. At least they kind of maybe do their own thing or they’re involved in groups of other people that, that do stuff like that. And to me, like the first place was real estate. But not a great time with COVID to get into that at all. And the only opportunities I had were more corporate stuff.

And I was like, I’m not going to sit on an Excel sheet for not hours a day, whatever. So I’m not doing that. And I started the newsletter. I just started putting stuff out and through that. And social media is awesome in that lane of I’ve met a ton of really cool people. And then air kind of came into the loop met up with James who founded it.

And it was still very, very early on, like only two months in he had started. And I kind of have a product mind and can understand how things should, should be built like digitally. And so we’ve been doing that for a year and then I’ve been trying to, to grow my newsletter as well. And my Twitter and I mean, my main goal is like, I’ve always been fascinated with people, not just in sports, but you know, entertainment, business, et cetera, that are like true peak performers where like, to be a peak performer, you gotta be on top of your game on everything.

And like, to me, that’s the definition of, of many athletes where like physically they’re at peak. Financially, they’re usually at peak form. So that’s where a lot of it’s come in, at least on my Twitter and newsletter where it’s like the business of athletes, because to me, if you’re the top of the top athlete wise, you’re probably taken care of financially and you had to have had it mentally.

So that kind of in circles, the whole thing. And then those people usually have good circles of people around them. And that’s kind of what I’ve been fascinated with and one day I I, I want to keep, keep, start getting some, some professional athletes on and, and talk to them about like their journeys as well.

But I don’t know, I’m just kind of, kind of building and trying to, trying to stay in the space of, of the, the athlete and business. SOC is sports. And in that is what, what interests me the most and that I, I wake up and do all not all day every day, but that I don’t get bored with. It is the main key.

[01:01:54] Mike Klinzing: What’s your writing process? How’d you develop your writing?

[01:01:57] Andrew Petcash: Well, funny enough, I never, you would’ve told me I, I write it all. I would call it stupid. I got C’s on all my papers high school. Cause I don’t want to write any papers, but actually my senior year. So I read this book called the compound effect, which is a, which is a fantastic book.

And it just basically says like break things down. Like everyone wants to do everything at once. And it’s like, one of the examples was like, even for school, like if you have a paper and it’s in, it worked out. I was reading the book at the same time that I was writing this paper. And I was like, do you have a seven page paper, break it into write a paragraph every day, you’ll see a little extra motivation, right?

To, and instead of trying to write all seven pages at once, which is what I probably normally would have done, I wrote like one page a day and it was the best thing ever. And I’ve applied it to basically every area of my life. And it’s, it’s just so much better in general. Then I was like, oh, I can, I did really good on that paper.

And my professor’s like, they’ll you got really good talent with that. And then I was like, well, what do I like, like that I could start writing about? And I started people putting stuff out on Twitter and I was like, heck, let’s do it all. I’ll kind of put shorter form on Twitter, push them to the newsletter.

And I actually went back the other day and started reading some of my first articles. And I was like, man, that sucks. I had no clue. I had no style, but it started getting better.

[01:03:21] Mike Klinzing: Oh, I bet. That sounds completely familiar, man. Once you said that, I was like, oh my gosh, if we go back and let’s do our first set of podcasts, Andrew, I’m

[01:03:32] Jason Sunkle: Andrew, I’m saying like, and I’m like 5 million times in an episode.

[01:03:32] Andrew Petcash: It was terrible. Absolutely terrible. Yeah. I mean, that’s how it is with everything. That’s why they say, just jump in. Take action. Sometimes I think what annoys people is you have to go with stuff like this, like a podcast or newsletter. You have to go, you’ll go forward. But at times you’ll go backwards a little before you go forward again.

And usually on those first initial backwards, like once the motivation runs out, people kind of quit. And like, to me, I understood that. And so I’ve always just been like, Hey, this little down is where I’m going to boost it up and get better. So now I have the whole structure and I usually, I have a, basically a curation form of where all my content comes into through Google alerts, Twitter, et cetera.

And so now every morning I take like 20, 30 minutes and I go through all of them and I go, okay, here were, say five interesting things. Maybe I’ll, I’ll touch on this one for an article or whatever. But I mean, the process, like it was such a mess at first and now it’s like so refined and perfect. I’m always trying to find Moore’s ways to automate it and make it better as I’m sure.

I’ve done the same with this, but it’s really cool to see that progress more than more than the growth or the followers or anything.

[01:04:47] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. Getting your processes down definitely makes things easier. I know that Jason and I, when we first started and we will kind of share the duties of editing episodes and putting them together and stitching them and trying to learn just the software to make it work.

And when we first started, we had no idea we were going to interview anybody. And then we knew some, at some point we’re going to do some interviews, but we started out with the idea that it was going to be a youth basketball parenting podcast. And Jason, I would just go on and we’d talk back and forth.

And we had one microphone and we both be sitting there talking to the same mic and we’re like, how would we ever record with somebody else? And the first couple of interviews we did, we actually. I drove to the places, local high school coaches and sat down and their coach SOPs with them and had one mic for me and one mic for them.

And we’ll kind of talk in and eventually learn and you figure it out like, okay, how do we use the editing software? Like the first couple episodes that we did with people and doing the interviews and you go back and there’s so much background noise and there’s this and that we did one episode where we’re like, is the guy we’re interviewing.

Is he inside like a big giant oil tank or what is, what is going on? And eventually you just kind of figure it out. Not that, that, that what we do now is perfect, but it’s certainly the amount of time that we spent to get an inferior product at the beginning, compared to the amount of time it takes now to put out a much more superior sounding podcast.

It doesn’t even compare. And I’m sure you’re feeling the same way for,

[01:06:20] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. And I mean, and I don’t know if you have this backlash at all, but like, especially on Twitter with something else. I think that you can see. Where, and I used to give athletes crap for this, at least when I was in college of like, oh, complaining about mental health, et cetera.

But like, I’ve been pointing out stuff on Twitter and I’ve been doing like, like today I did a thread on Kylie Kyrie Irving’s best investments. And it’s got like a million impressions. It has like a thousand retweets right now, like 9,000 likes. But like I read through some of the comments and I’m like, man, people are ruthless.

And I’m like, oh God, I’m like, you literally took time out of your day to like, come at my life for no reason. Like, I’m just putting this out there. But the point, the point that tells you that

[01:07:02] Jason Sunkle: You’ve made it though, as you’re getting the trolls, that means you’ve made it.

[01:07:04] Andrew Petcash: Oh, I know. But it’s just funny.

Like you can see how people get caught up in those. And like, people might put out good one and stop, but like that’s, that’s the stuff I’m like, I always think like, man, you have no life. If you’re like commented on this something negative. And then meanwhile, Professional athletes that are like Mario gutsy scored the game winning goal in FIFA.

He like follows me. So I’m like, okay, like I’m should be more happy about that. And like some dude telling me that like this threat is stupid. You don’t know what you’re talking about. People are funny. I’m sure you guys get some of that as well. Or maybe not as much publicly, but privately people always say stuff like, oh, you’re a writer now.

And I’m like, yeah, I am. What do you do? Like,

[01:07:47] Mike Klinzing: I think it’s, I think it’s endemic to the situation, right? If you’re putting something out there and it’s out there for the public to consume, there’s always going to be people that have different kinds of opinions, opinions on it. I think like Jason said, ultimately, you want to be in that position where if you’re putting out good things, kind of like being a coach, right?

Like if you’re a good coach, right? Not every guy, every person is going to love you because you can’t play everybody. Not every parent is going to be happy with their kid’s high school coach. Some kids aren’t going to play. You’re going to have to make tough decisions. If you’re trying to make every single person happy, then you’re not going to make anybody happy as a coach, as a writer, as a podcaster, like, look, our podcast is good for some people.

And there’s other people that probably listen to it and they’re like, Ugh, I would never listen to another episode ever again. It’s the same way with a writer. If you’re going to have opinions, you’re going to share things. Some people are going to be like, yeah, that’s the content that I’m looking for in other people, something like that come to our podcast every Tuesday when we record the NBA and they skip right to the dad jokes because they know how great they are at the end.

Oh, that’s it that’s it that’s it. Or, or maybe there’s people. I’m sure there are a lot of people that are coaches that listen to the coaching interview episodes and the stuff that we do on the MBA. They probably don’t even listen to that. And it’s just you just try to find what works for you and you got to do what, what you like to do.

You enjoy doing and then hope that you can find an audience for that or tailor what you do. Try to try to make it, try to bend it so that you can do what you enjoy and do it for an audience that finds value. And that’s what it was all about.

[01:09:30] Andrew Petcash: Just spray on the wall, see what sticks go with it. And then like expect nothing.

Like, for me, like what’s always been good is like, I expect nothing. Right. I put out Solomon, I go, this is going to suck. No, one’s going to like it and that’s good. And then when, if it does well, I’m like, oh, that’s cool. I’m glad if it doesn’t. You’re like, well, yeah. And I think college recruiting sports has always been a good, I think a lot of people they get something in their life and they get their hopes real high up on something like, oh yeah, I see.

I see. It’s like finally going to happen. And I was always that way. Oldest coach finally reached out to me, I’m going to get this offer and then your hopes get shattered and it like puts you in a bad mood. So like I’ve taken that same concept. This is why like sports, basketball. It’s just so important to life.

I don’t know how you could have kids and not have them play sports at least for a few years, but like those, like getting your hopes up, et cetera. That’s always not doing that for me has been huge because you just stay level good, bad. You just try to stay level where, where most people swing heavy up and down.

[01:10:35] Mike Klinzing: Yeah. There’s no doubt about that. I think you have to maintain optimism and yet at the same time, be able to understand you said it best when we talked about that dip that a lot of us go through, right. When you’re starting out something new, there’s that initial excitement, and then maybe it doesn’t grow.

It doesn’t get as big as you hoped it would. And then that’s where most people give up because they haven’t kind of fought through. And I think athletics teaches you that, and it makes you understand that. Look, I got to put a lot of work in to be good at something. And just because I go on practice today for an hour, it doesn’t mean that I’m suddenly gonna be the best player on the floor tomorrow.

That’s a whole long, that’s a long process. And if you think it’s going to happen overnight, you’re wrong. You’ve got to keep trying to put your best work out there. You gotta keep working at the game and improving, getting better. And if you do that, I think no matter what it is that you’re doing, you’re going to at least be satisfied with what you’re doing.

You’re gonna be proud of what you’re putting out there. And I think really that’s ultimately what all of us are trying to be. Whether it’s trying to put our best selves out there as a player, as a coach, as a entrepreneur, as a podcast, or as a writer, you’re trying to do the best work that you possibly can do and just see where the results lie.

[01:11:48] Andrew Petcash: Right? Yeah. And there’s also 7 billion people or whatever on this point, like everyone thinks it all revolves around them. And like, oh, everyone needs to listen to me. Everyone needs to read my stuff, listen to my stuff. Yeah. And I’ll do perspective for me. I write about mostly the business of sports and athletes.

A lot of people, they they’re they’re in Ukraine, fleeing for their life prayers up to them, but it’s like, you think they care about what I’m doing now. So like having some perspective on that as well.

[01:12:18] Mike Klinzing: It’s so true. All right. Let me ask you a couple questions from an athlete perspective.

If I want to, if I’m an athlete and I want to set myself up so that I can make some money through NIL, let’s say I’m in right now. I’m a high school senior, regardless of sport, let’s focus on basketball. If I’m a basketball player who next year, I’m going to be a senior in high school. And I want to start to be able to kind of set myself up to have an opportunity to make some money.

And I, and again, you can take this to whatever level the kids are going to play at, but just in general, what are some things that players can do to sort of set themselves up? Well, to be able to make some money on an area.

[01:12:59] Andrew Petcash: Well, first off, if you’re a stud that really helps. But I’ll take it for more.

I’ll take it more from like my perspective of being like a mid-major player. Because if you fit into this category, you can obviously be higher and still do really well. Or you should without excuses, honestly. But first you gotta like set up your social medias and hosting like sport contents.

Great. But you have to show like some bit of yourself outside of that. I’ve seen that work. Great. And people have stories. So it was this guy, John scene, and at air, we actually signed him to a few NFL deals and he puts out like, he’s an offensive lineman. And he puts out content about just like being a big guy and like funny relatable stuff.

And it’s like, man, people love it. He’s like 2 million followers. Like, and it’s like a little bit football. Most of it’s just relatable to life and office alignment. And then. Like bigger guys, and that’s kind of why I think he’s called like the big guy. He has some brand on it, but it’s like finding little things like that.

If you’re interested in shoes show that whatever, but have some, at least differentiation of like your interests outside of your sport, because of those will be a lot of the brands that end up reaching out to you and wanting to do deals because you’ll be kind of like that sports person in that niche.

And then beyond that, I mean, a lot of it, I think, comes to education. I know there’s a bunch of companies trying to sell courses and all kinds of stuff now around and I all education, I think a lot of it’s pretty straightforward. Like just learn and YouTube, like use it to your benefit. Basic finances, budgeting and the people in your circle is going to be important as well of having people that can at least help you navigate a little, I think we’re going to see problems maybe next year, but probably over the next few where we see kids like signing.

That don’t end up working out and there’s lawsuits, whether from the brand or the athlete, just cause there’s a lot of fine print. But, but yeah, like trying to do some research on your own and just be like, Hey, NIL, whatever it is, type it in YouTube, how taxes work in. NIL how brands sign, deals, how to read a contract, whatever, like pick up little things.

And then that becomes from self-educating. And I try to put out some of that content I’m currently working on a deal with this company. That’s trying to have me put out like a five-part series, for athletes and they want it the end of the thesis to go back to their brand of like, why they should use them, which I’m cool with actually.

But it’s more like the key points of like, Hey, here’s how to set up an LLC, et cetera. So going through all those things, but at the core basics of it, if you can build a social media and, and can. I mean, getting, going from like a three-star three store player to a four-star player, we’ll do a lot more for your NIL worth then going from 3000 to 4,000 followers on Twitter, Instagram would.

So, yeah, I mean, a lot of it it’s just living your life and then I will kind of fall if you’re really going to try to force it. Then you might miss out on the actual sport itself.

[01:16:10] Mike Klinzing: Talk a little bit about why you think athletes running camps is such a good idea.

[01:16:14] Andrew Petcash: That is, that is a great idea. So I don’t know why that wasn’t allowed to begin with.

I know they try, they do things like under the coaches and stuff, but like from a local perspective, if you’re a division one athlete or really any athlete that goes to play in college, like kids are gonna look up to you. And I, I even had that in where I grew up a lot and it’s like if I had a camp and so one of the guys that I played with, he’s the starting quarterback at Boston college now filter Kovac.

And I’m like, bro, you gotta run a camp there. And so he’s currently, I’m trying to help him a little and work on that. But so you get a couple hundred kids. I mean, you can get someone to sponsor it, to get t-shirts. Now this builds up your personal brand from like a fan slash loyalty perspective, along with the cash you’re going to get, but you’re making a real impact in the community.

And I think we’re seeing, I think a lot of people that were against NISL, it’s hard for them to like still be against it. When you see some of what these kids are doing, when they’re donating part of their NISL deals to charity, they’re going to the children’s hospital, they’re raising money, they’re running camps to help kids, et cetera.

It’s like these college kids, a lot of them are, are good at heart. Like you got to love to see that kind of stuff.

[01:17:23] Mike Klinzing: The camp piece of it. And I’ve been running youth basketball camps. I started mine, I first year out of college, but my second year out of college and I’ve been doing it ever since I picked this is maybe 30 month, 30th summer coming up, but it’s just.

31. Alright. 31 sub south CA whatever, man. It’s been out, let’s put it this way. I spent a long time and I think that when obviously now my playing days are long since gone and there’s nobody who has kids who are my cashier, mostly for elementary school aged kids. So there’s nobody who has kids that are that age that remember me, or as a player that don’t have the name recognition that I did when I was 23, it was completely different.

Right? At that point, there were lots of people in the community that still knew me, remembered me from when I played at the local high school, I played in college. And so by name cared a little bit more value. You think about the kids today, you go back to your hometown and you bought a basketball camp at your high school that you went about.

I just don’t see how there’s any way that with even the most minimum of effort that you could get. 50 75 kids and whatever run a three-day camp on a five day camp, whatever you want to do. And you could easily make a couple thousand bucks. And if you have a bigger name or you have a bigger community, you can easily do a lot more than that.

And I don’t think it takes a ton of work or a time. It doesn’t take a lot of specialized knowledge, right? You’re just doing, you’re just doing your thing. You’re just doing what you’ve, what you’ve done. And you try to give back to community and kids. Look, if you have 7, 8, 9 year old kids, they, as you said, look up to those local athletes.

And it’s just, I was trying to have, as part of my camp, I was trying to have a balance between now. I used to be one of the young guys, but now I’m one of the old guys on the coaching staff. But you try to have a few old guys to kind of keep things running smoothly, but then you’ve got to have some high school and college kids that those younger kids can look up to.

And they’d want a little bit more energy, a little bit different vibe to the camp. And I think. From an NFL standpoint, that’s something like we talked about earlier that if you have somebody who’s good as part of your athletic department and on your staff as a program, like helping the kids set up a camp in their hometown, to me, every staff in the country, should we try to help them play?

[01:19:55] Andrew Petcash: Yeah, I, yeah. I think camps, camps, aren’t too difficult at all. I mean, that’s why Nike, I’m not sure if you saw this, but Nike is like paying a bunch of Ohio State players to run camps. Like that’s genius because Nike is obviously the one they, they don’t have to put any time and hire people. Now. They just easily probably do it for cheaper instead of hiring coaches go right players.

So it’s like, if you’re a player you should see like, oh, there’s probably a reason they’re hiring 17 of us. They’re probably doing pretty well on it. Maybe we should just, 17 of us should just run our own and hire someone. That’s good at setting up camp. Maybe even like your recruit or your like director of football operations would probably do it for free then for you.

Right. And you would make a lot more, which isn’t even the point you would run a better camp too, because now people will be like, oh, I know it’s not Nike just trying to come in.

[01:20:45] Mike Klinzing: Right. For sure. You’re cutting out the middleman. Exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. What about NFTs? I know you’ve written a couple of things about NFTs and that’s one of those things that when I look at it, my son right now, he’s a sophomore in high school.

And so he did some crypto investing and he’s trying to get me to set up accounts for him and he wants to buy NFTs. That’s the whole reason why I got into crypto and he’s trying to explain it to me. And I think I understand the basic idea behind it, but I’m not sure that I understand how the value is created.

So just talk to us a little bit about at NFT’s, what you know about them and where you think. And how do you think they’re going to fit into the sports landscape moving forward.

[01:21:27] Andrew Petcash: forward? Yeah, well, personally, I think, and I’m learning just like everyone else. I mean, there’s a lot to them. I’m not being technical on all this, but they, I think they’re going to be big in sports.

Not only from the standpoint of like athletes actually using them. But also stadiums teams, like fan tokens, et cetera. I think something that in these sports seem to see it in the mob. They’re always looking for more ways to make money. Right. All, they don’t want to pay the players more money, but they want more playoff games.

Why? Because more playoff games equals more revenue for the league. Okay. Makes sense. Right. But we’re forgetting that like the athletes are the ones that drive all this. So it’s basically saying like the athletes from an endorsement perspective, the fans, really, a lot of times, like for me watching NBA, Pittsburgh doesn’t have a team.

Right. So who do I root for? I don’t root for Cleveland. I don’t root for Philly. I root for. I don’t root for teams. I root for players in the NBA. So it’s like, since I’m not invested in buying jerseys or going to games for, for an NBA team in Pittsburgh, maybe I buy an NFT of, let’s say Steph Curry and this NFT it’s columns.

And I have it on a digital wallet, whatever cool. But it’s not, that’s not really the main point. It’s the utility that comes behind it and the utility, and this is what’s going to be important, but we’ve had a lot of issues like deer and Fox, like try to do this. And then he ditched out of it and his investors are all his fans really lost like $2 million collectively.

Cause he just decided not to do it anymore. But you would get like signed jerseys, you’d get access to him a and talk to him. So it’s like creating more of a fan engagement. Then that’s how teams are going to use it as well through like tokens and et cetera. Because now it’s not just your local community.

That’s sharing on the team. It’s the world. There’s people from around the world that will. You know, the Pittsburgh Steelers. Well, it’s like, well, if the Steelers are releasing NFC, that’s more revenue and maybe it’s an additional ways to get fans engaged. And then from the standpoint of ticketing, where I think it’s going to be the first place it goes, is it removes it?

Doesn’t technically remove scalpers, but say the Steelers want to sell tickets. Right? And they sell them for a hundred dollars. Well, a scalper goes and sells them for 120. Well, the team didn’t make any money on that. 120 that was now sold. The scalper made the 20 well with NFTs because it’s all back to the blockchain and traceable.

They, the team gets percentages for every secondary market sale. So the team not only makes a hundred dollars from the first sale, but then once it sells for 120 on the secondary market from a scalper, they maybe get five to 10%. So it’s like. You know, teams are going to see that as like, Hey, scalping has always been a problem this easily fixes that.

So I think that’s going to be the first place it goes.

[01:24:17] Mike Klinzing: How soon do you think that comes online?

[01:24:20] Andrew Petcash: Next couple of years, I know there’s a few teams that are already kind of dabbling in it a little. They’re like moving tickets all to phones. I think that’s like the start of it. And then they’ll start the, to do it all through, through NFTs once the blockchain and these ecosystems are more set up, cause it’s still very early on.

And I think the way I look at it is like you had Google, like Google was a surgeon or engine, right? So all these companies that are worth now millions, billions of dollars, they’ve done good because of Google because people have been able to find out about them on Google. Well, to me, like the next kind of version of that is like Bitcoin, Ethereum, et cetera, because they’re on the blockchain, which is.

So like they’re building off of the theory, just like other companies build off of Google. So it’s still early on. We’ll see how it goes. There’s a ton of censorship private privacy, all, all that kind of stuff, but used the right way. It’s very effective and good for like freedom and, and us as people and especially athletes who can monetize further they can monetize their fan base beyond just their salary and endorsements from companies.

They can actually get paid from the fans to, for whatever.

[01:25:36] Mike Klinzing: The idea of being able to continuously cash in on the secondary market. I think that’s an area where we’ll definitely get to see this come into play. I just listened to Jason. I don’t know if you’ve listened to the episode. The last I know it was sometime in the last week, Bill Simmons with one of the minority owners in the Philadelphia, 76, who is one of the I think he’s one of the owners of fanatics and they were just talking about the sports card business and sort of the same thing into that. You were talking about where, so tops puts out a card and they initially sell that card for whatever.

But then that card gets sold multiple times over and over and over again. And tops of the athlete never get any piece of that particular revenue. And he was just talking about how eventually, what they’re trying to get to is where same thing that you have with the NFT market, where the card market, once it’s sold on the secondary market, then the team or the player or the company, whatever ends up getting a percentage of that secondary market sale, which when you think about the ability to capture that revenue and bring it back to the original source of the creation of the sports car to be NFT or whatever it is.

That’s something that’s certainly, there’s a lot of money sitting there to be made for somebody who can figure out how to do that the right way so that it works for both ends of that equation. Both ends of that transaction.

[01:27:10] Andrew Petcash: No doubt. Yeah. And the secondary will be, and teams are always looking for more revenue.

So it’s the no brainer, right? Like, Hey, let’s get secondary market sales on tickets, easy Dawn, do it. You know that makes a lot of sense.

[01:27:25] Mike Klinzing: And I mean, everything obviously ticketing laws, and even getting down to the high schools. So I think COVID accelerated this, but now you can’t like the number of high schools that even have physical tickets anymore.

Most like your highest state high school athletic association this year with the state tournament, you there’s no ticket sales. When you show up, if you’re going to buy a ticket, you have to buy it online and just have your phone out and then ticket scan. When you get that. And then you’re into the game.

There’s no, there’s no physical tickets. There’s no cash sales at the door. It’s just, you have to buy your tickets presale. Or if you show up at the gate and you have a bought a ticket, well, here’s the website. Just go out and buy the ticket and then we’ll get the QR code and we’ll scan it and then get in the game.

So it’s trickling down to high school sports. I’m waiting to show up for my first tournament, pay my pay my 25 bucks for my weekend pass and not have to pay cash for it. Just to have some that, but on some apps, somebody’s going to figure that out if they haven’t already. I’m sure. I’m sure somebody somewhere in the country is already doing that.

[01:28:30] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. I mean, that’d be smart. I mean, these, I have raised this issue with a few other people though. Like these AAU tournaments club whatever sport really I’d say basketball, football, like low. Lower economic status, generally speaking, but like baseball across, like some of these, tournament’s not like they have such a monopoly where it’s like, you have to go to these tournaments to get seen, to play in college and they charge ridiculous amounts to these teams, these players, I mean, parking’s like 50 bucks a week then it’s like 30 bucks a week to get in.

And I know that’s not a whole nother rabbit hole, but like you just kind of sparked my opinion there where it’s like,

[01:29:13] Mike Klinzing: So yeah, that’s a great topic. Let’s, we’re coming up on an hour and a half. This is a great topic to finish out. Cause I think it’s something that affects everybody in the basketball space.

Right. And it affects players. It affects parents. It affects coaches. It affects all of us. So dive into a little deeper what the problems are and if you have any thoughts about what could we do to make it better, because I have a huge problem with the same thing that you just talked about. So let’s talk a little bit about that.

[01:29:38] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. I mean maybe September. In the fall last year I wrote, I wrote an article about this and it was, I saw perfect game baseball. And I mean, I have no problem calling these companies up because they know what they’re doing. They were charging like 3000, $3,500 somewhere in that range, like a weekend for these teams.

It’s because they have a complete monopoly over the baseball market in AAU. And there’s no one really coming in because they bought out all their relationships and it’s like, Hey, they’ve done a good job, like credit to them. And they can keep up charging because all the coaches go to this tournament.

But at the same time, it’s like, come on. Like, are we really for the players now? Like, it’s become too much margin over mission instead of mission over margin where I think a lot of the people that got into these AAU spaces, whether it’s just coaching an AAU team or running an AAU tournament or a whole circuit, it was about the players.

Right? Let’s get the players seen, let’s get coaches, better players, and then slowly it’s become all about the. But I think that’s where it all starts is just kind of the money and the greed behind it. Or it’s like, Hey, these parents are willing to pay for it. Cause if they can get a free education for their kid like they’re going to, they’re going to keep paying it.

Even if they don’t have the money.

[01:30:59] Mike Klinzing: The problem is, and this is where I think that you want it to be. Issue is sure. There is a group of players who are playing a, you that have an opportunity to maybe play basketball at the next level. Now, the percentages of players who are playing a few that are, who go on to play division one, basketball are really small, really, really small, same thing.

When you think of Jewish to think of there’s three, you think about AI, it’s still a small percentage of players who are playing. And then there’s a whole nother group that if you go back, create a, you go back 20 years ago, those kids. Fifth six fourth, third, eighth, those kids weren’t playing travel basketball.

They were just playing maybe in their local community rec league and they weren’t playing a, but now a you used to, when it first started, it used to be more of the better players who were playing a, now a you is everybody. So it’s one thing. If I have a high level high school player and I’m going up playing the tournament and there’s college coaches there and whatever, and I’m having an opportunity to be seen, just like we talked about off the top, right?

You have to go and get that exposure. But if I’m a fifth grader, there’s no college anywhere, no matter what bill of goods, people are trying to sell you, there’s no college anywhere. That’s looking at considering talking about watching fifth grade basketball players. And yet there you go. Unless it’s, LeBron’s good.

They’re just the amount of money that a tournament’s charge to get in which I know about the gate is where they make most of their money. Again, depending on how much they’re charging teams to be in the tournament. But the gate is where the money is, but it just seems criminal that the amount of money that they charge, I’m always amazed at people.

It’s all bad. And I like there hasn’t been a rebellion among parents and again, at the higher levels of high school, AAU, I get it. But at the lower levels, if you have a fifth grader and you have two parents and a sibling that are going to watch this kid play over a weekend, and then you’re traveling out of town, which if there’s anybody listening and you’re traveling out of town with your third, fourth, or fifth grader, I’m not sure that that’s a good use of your money, which is a whole nother topic altogether, but it’s.

I mean, I don’t know what the solution is, but it feels like the solution is better educated parents and everybody kind of rebelling against the system because the system to me is broken.

[01:33:51] Andrew Petcash: Oh yeah. It’s well, that’s one of the things we’re trying to build at Air. So like everything’s been, service-based in this industry and we’ve having gone through it and, and James came from Australia.

So they basically, you pay money and it’s called pro kick. I’ll show you and you, you kick you get better at punting and they literally give you three options and they say, pick one of these schools. Like there’s no, like it’s a true service. And like, you have very, very little say. So he has that international perspective and the amount of international kids that want to come to America to play in colleges is absurd too.

I don’t think people realize that if like, if that becomes easier, there’s going to be even less spots and it’s going to become even harder and harder, but like we’ve taken the platform. And we’re just trying to bring like complete transparency and make it free for everyone. And like, yeah, we have to make money somehow.

So it’s like some premium offerings where you have greater visibility to stuff, but like overall it’s like, we’re not selling anything. We’re not selling a recruiting service. We’re not selling a camp. We’re not selling training. Like we’re bringing you all those options to the table and say, Hey, you can pick here.

Like you’re from Carolina and these are the three best camps. Or these are the three AAU tournaments this weekend. Like, listen, like we don’t have control over this. We’re not selling you on it. But you know, providing that platform where now kids and athletes and the families can get in contact and they can at least promote themselves, right.

Where it’s not like paying a service $3,000 to just email their highlights where it’s like, you can actually display yourself the best way. So it’s like what? We’re trying to build it Air in short. But to your point, like the system’s broken and we realized that, and it’s, it’s a need for disruption heavily.

And it really does. It starts with the parents, but. The problem is if all the coaches are going one place like the kids are going to be, yeah, it’s hard to, like, it’s hard to rebel against that. It’s bite your tongue. Hey, I hope this 50 extra bucks like pays off, but I mean now with all the crazy inflation and gas prices, I mean, there’s I mean, I feel for people that are about to go through it this spring and summer, I generally feel for those families and I hope that

[01:36:01] Mike Klinzing: I’m jumping into it sort of first time.

So my son we’ve always just kind of played local and he’s in seventh grade, just finished up his sophomore year. And this is the first year we’re going to kind of jump into it a little bit more and go and travel a little bit, not nationally, but just travel. You know, we’re here including Ohio. So we’re going to probably travel to Pittsburgh and travel Indiana, maybe go to Louisville, but yeah, it’s you start looking at it and you start adding it up and partying.

Yeah. Just look at it. You’re like, man. It’s I mean, I think it’s. It’s time. Unfortunately, you kind of have to, you can only fight the system for so long. And I’ve tried to, I’ve tried to fight it for a while, but I still, I still continue to be amazed though, that people who have a third or fourth grader and you show up and it’s like 25 bucks.

I can’t believe the number of people who just walk right up and whip out their wallet, drop 25 bucks to get in for the day. And they don’t even bat an eye or like I had to at least make a smart, smart, Alec comment is I was paying, you know what I mean? If not, if nothing else. And I know the person who’s collected money at the gate is the person that’s making the money clearly, but still, it just feels like then a thing that I love is when you go and pay your 25 bucks to get in, and then you get the score key to size, that’s even better.

[01:37:16] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. And then they sell the coaches the $300 Pieces of paper booklets that has all it has his kids’ names and that’s it. It’s like a, that’s really beneficial.

[01:37:28] Mike Klinzing: Well, it’s, it’s it’s, it’s definitely the wild, wild west out there when it comes to AAU basketball. And I think there are still, there are a lot of people out there doing it, right?

So not to paint a broad picture that it can’t be done. Right. But unfortunately there’s always bad actors out there that are doing things that aren’t the best interest of kids. And aren’t in the best interest of the families of those kids. Aren’t in the best interest of the game. And ultimately I think that’s where, that’s where I hope it goes.

I hope it goes towards whatever we do. Like I don’t begrudge anybody the right to make money from running a business. I run a basketball business. I make money from the basketball camps that on. So I get it. But you also have to do it with the right intention and make sure that you’re doing it in such a way.

There’s benefits to the people who are participating and not just benefits to the bottom line of the tournament operator. Unfortunately, that’s where we get sometimes.

[01:38:25] Andrew Petcash: No doubt about that

[01:38:28] Mike Klinzing: Final question. Before we get out of here, I want to ask you where you see yourself going over the next couple of years.

And what direction have you thought about the direction that you want to take your entrepreneurial spirit, where you want to go? Just give us an idea of what you see on the horizon.

[01:38:45] Andrew Petcash: Yeah. And I’ve always been a fan of, and I’ll share like short answer formulas, but I’ve always been like a believer in like, not putting it out too much.

Cause they always say like, if you put out like what you want sometimes like you, I don’t know. There’s some saying about like, but so kind of where I see myself in general is like, I really want to get air to an international play where we’re helping kids all around the world and we’re giving them the tools.

To, to come to America if they want, but also to find club and pro opportunities and other sports. And then eventually we can build it up to where an athlete maybe gets on when they’re 13 and they can get a few events. Then they get the the next stage, which is college. And then they go to the, they can find pro opportunities and then sign brand deals, et cetera.

And then personally, eventually down the line, I want to work more in tune with athletes hopefully more in the financial aspect. If that, if that comes to be, or definitely some media plays, I’m trying to work on some things to, to have sort of a, a media component where I can interview. And I was talking about this earlier, the peak performers, getting athletes on and just giving, giving back to the younger generation.

We’re talking to these athletes that have been really successful and gone through it is kind of, kind of where I see myself from the lens. Business-wise. Like you and me both know, and Jason knows where we’re not what we do. Right. Basketball business. It’s only teaching writing. It’s only a portion of us.

There’s a lot of other areas of life that I want to get to and see myself doing in a few years as well.

[01:40:21] Mike Klinzing: Absolutely. That’s well said. And I think it kind of sums up the way that our conversation went. We touched on a lot of different things, went a lot of different directions and a lot of topics that we talked about tonight that we haven’t necessarily hit out on a podcast.

And so it was really interesting. I know for me, for Jason to be able to hear some of the things that you’re doing and talk some and ill and talk some NFTs and just talk about the whole process of basketball and business. So before we get out, let people know how they can connect with you. Obviously share your Twitter, share how people can subscribe to the newsletter, whatever other social media or website, whatever you want to share.

And then we’ll jump back in and wrap things up.

[01:41:01] Andrew Petcash: So first off, obviously, Jason, Mike, thanks for having me on. For everyone listening, you can find me @AndrewPetcash on Twitter. I kind of run everything through there. My newsletter I answer all my DMS too. So if anyone has any questions or wants to chat, you can kind of go from there.

And you know, my, I try to, that’s like my social profile. They say it’s like the new LinkedIn, or it doesn’t matter if it’s business sports, whatever it’s kinda go to Twitter.

[01:41:28] Mike Klinzing: Absolutely. That’s where we spend most of our time. And I think it’s been helpful for us, for sure. And I know that you’ve built up a nice following and again, if you have a chance to subscribe to Andrew’s newsletter, make sure you do that is very well done.

And there’s a lot of interesting things that he brings a perspective that you may not see in other places. So it’s really well done, Andrew, and again, we can’t thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight, to jump out with us, talk some basketball, toxic business, share your basketball journey with us.

And to everyone out there. Thanks for listening. And we’ll catch you on our next episode. Thanks.